The Wine Cellar

[Whaleshark]

Agatha, we were typing at same time with info on undies....same source info, etc...

 

[Agatha_C]

Agatha, we were typing at same time with info on undies....same source info, etc...

You know what they say about great minds? LOL!

 

[Whaleshark]

Also, if the reason the size 12s are kept for JB instead of giving to Jenny after all, is because JB wanted them, why...if she already had some just like them, as stated here in earlier testimony given by Patsy?

http://http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682505/Second-Floor#Size46Panties
Size 4-6 Panties
Did JBR Own Smaller Day-of-the-Week Bloomies?
In her June 24, 1998 interview, Patsy was asked the following by Thomas Haney: "Did JonBenet have panties with the names of each day of the week on it?"
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
THOMAS HANEY: Okay. And did she wear those according to the day of the week or was it just kind of --
PATSY RAMSEY: Just whatever.
THOMAS HANEY: Did she know, pay much attention to what day of the week it was? PATSY RAMSEY: No.
THOMAS HANEY: So whatever would come out of the drawer?
PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding). Transcript (236:16-25; 237:1-4).
Note that no indication was given whether these were Bloomies or some other brand.
___

 

[UKGuy]

Do you think its possible that JR put JBR in those panties hoping to put distance between them (the Rs) and the murder, as if to say see, she is in the wrong panties and we dont have others like them. Only PR didnt get that memo or forgot she read the memo? Maybe, he forgot to tell her that or could he have set her up with the panties? Hoping to shift focus and so he didnt give PR the memo at all.

Agatha_C,

I posted a long answer a minute ago, and the server chewed it up. So the short answer is yes.

Another option is that John made a quick restaging when he went missing that morning. Then placed JonBenet into the wine-cellar wrapped in the blanket.

Note when John found her he left the blanket behind and carried her upstairs.

Patsy would not know about the later restaging or the size-12's.


.

 

[UKGuy]

Also, if the reason the size 12s are kept for JB instead of giving to Jenny after all, is because JB wanted them, why...if she already had some just like them, as stated here in earlier testimony given by Patsy?

http://http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682505/Second-Floor#Size46Panties
Size 4-6 Panties
Did JBR Own Smaller Day-of-the-Week Bloomies?
In her June 24, 1998 interview, Patsy was asked the following by Thomas Haney: "Did JonBenet have panties with the names of each day of the week on it?"
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
THOMAS HANEY: Okay. And did she wear those according to the day of the week or was it just kind of --
PATSY RAMSEY: Just whatever.
THOMAS HANEY: Did she know, pay much attention to what day of the week it was? PATSY RAMSEY: No.
THOMAS HANEY: So whatever would come out of the drawer?
PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding). Transcript (236:16-25; 237:1-4).
Note that no indication was given whether these were Bloomies or some other brand.
___

Whaleshark,
Patsy is in all likelyhood simply lying!

.

 

[Agatha_C]

Agatha_C,

I posted a long answer a minute ago, and the server chewed it up. So the short answer is yes.

Another option is that John made a quick restaging when he went missing that morning. Then placed JonBenet into the wine-cellar wrapped in the blanket.

Note when John found her he left the blanket behind and carried her upstairs.

Patsy would not know about the later restaging or the size-12's.


.

Okay, why is it feeling more and more like they were both setting the other one up?

I dont see that happening if they were trying to protect Burke. I can see JR restaging if the initial staging fingered him and/or JAR.

Clearly, JR forgot to give PR some of the details and one has to wonder why. The size 12 panties leads me to believe JR was casting doubt on his own wife. Neither was free to clear up the issues being that to do so would be admitting the part they each played in the murder and or cover up so they just played dumb ( and should have won Oscars, for the performance, as no one plays stupid like they did).

Im now wondering if that wasnt the purpose of the Suitcase as well, had it initially been in the wine cellar with JARs stuff in it and JR later moved it in his restaging?

Were the panties left unwrapped and JR used a pair, the right pair and stashed the rest, leaving Patsy holding the ignorant bag?

Im starting to feel that this was far more sinister then originally thought.

 

[UKGuy]

Okay, why is it feeling more and more like they were both setting the other one up?

I dont see that happening if they were trying to protect Burke. I can see JR restaging if the initial staging fingered him and/or JAR.

Clearly, JR forgot to give PR some of the details and one has to wonder why. The size 12 panties leads me to believe JR was casting doubt on his own wife. Neither was free to clear up the issues being that to do so would be admitting the part they each played in the murder and or cover up so they just played dumb ( and should have won Oscars, for the performance, as no one plays stupid like they did).

Im now wondering if that wasnt the purpose of the Suitcase as well, had it initially been in the wine cellar with JARs stuff in it and JR later moved it in his restaging?

Were the panties left unwrapped and JR used a pair, the right pair and stashed the rest, leaving Patsy holding the ignorant bag?

Im starting to feel that this was far more sinister then originally thought.

Agatha_C,

Were the panties left unwrapped and JR used a pair, the right pair and stashed the rest, leaving Patsy holding the ignorant bag?

It certainly looks that way.

Im now wondering if that wasnt the purpose of the Suitcase as well, had it initially been in the wine cellar with JARs stuff in it and JR later moved it in his restaging?

Could be, maybe it was just moved to make the guest room appear unused, except Patsy had slept there?

Clearly, JR forgot to give PR some of the details and one has to wonder why.

It is curious is it not? I'll accept he messed up as an occam' explanation.


.

 

[Whaleshark]

...but what kind of thought process is JR going thru to implicate Patsy by purposely choosing the 12s for the underwear, if that's what he was doing? that it must have been Patsy who redressed her if she is in the 12 undies? why? maybe if they were in the cellar wrapped in a pkg or somewhere only patsy would know to get them. still doesn't add up. JR states in some of his testimony he would get her ready for bed too sometimes. it's not like Patsy only knew where her clothes and underwear were....

...and he's not doing it to separate himself from the undies as if it was an intruder who conveniently brought a size 12 with him for that day in that style to replace her underwear. Someone else did not bring them, and it is not plausible to do so.

I'm just wondering if the underwear in that size, style, and day, were needed to replace a similar pair that she was wearing in her own size originally....a missing pair that she came home in / went to bed with... but why not choose her reg. size from her drawer?

or, other possibilities:
- she had an accident at the Fleet party that night and they changed her to that size over there (maybe they were given as a gift to someone over there....I think there is previous testimony stating that JB had accidents over at Fleet's sometimes and they had to change her and send her home in diff. size undies)....but - if Patsy changed her pants and put on the longjohns, would she leave large underwear on her and put the longjohns over them? ....unlikely, but JB was found that way though....

- she was soiled by the time she got home....if Patsy needed to change her bottoms to put her to bed, maybe the undies she had on were her reg. 4/6 size, and they were wet at that time. Maybe she was changed into those size 12s then...but again, why that size? seems unlikely as well.

- JB put them on herself as Patsy states.... if so, when would she have done this? to change out of soiled undies she had on? but if she got up to do that after being put to bed, and was wearing what Patsy said she put her to bed in: the longjohns, then those longjohns would have been wet too, and I don't think she would have put the longjohns back on.... but she was found in the longjohns.

i know there are multiple levels of lies. trying to figure out what could/could not be true based on the stories given.

...but there was staining in both the size 12 undies on her, and the longjohns. was it wet or not wet? damp and musty; new urine? new blood? just the wiped blood? need to go back and refresh on that too....

my. head. hurts.

 

[Agatha_C]

...but what kind of thought process is JR going thru to implicate Patsy by purposely choosing the 12s for the underwear, if that's what he was doing? that it must have been Patsy who redressed her if she is in the 12 undies? why? maybe if they were in the cellar wrapped in a pkg or somewhere only patsy would know to get them. still doesn't add up. JR states in some of his testimony he would get her ready for bed too sometimes. it's not like Patsy only knew where her clothes and underwear were....

...and he's not doing it to separate himself from the undies as if it was an intruder who conveniently brought a size 12 with him for that day in that style to replace her underwear. Someone else did not bring them, and it is not plausible to do so.

I'm just wondering if the underwear in that size, style, and day, were needed to replace a similar pair that she was wearing in her own size originally....a missing pair that she came home in / went to bed with... but why not choose her reg. size from her drawer?

or, other possibilities:
- she had an accident at the Fleet party that night and they changed her to that size over there (maybe they were given as a gift to someone over there....I think there is previous testimony stating that JB had accidents over at Fleet's sometimes and they had to change her and send her home in diff. size undies)....but - if Patsy changed her pants and put on the longjohns, would she leave large underwear on her and put the longjohns over them? ....unlikely, but JB was found that way though....

- she was soiled by the time she got home....if Patsy needed to change her bottoms to put her to bed, maybe the undies she had on were her reg. 4/6 size, and they were wet at that time. Maybe she was changed into those size 12s then...but again, why that size? seems unlikely as well.

- JB put them on herself as Patsy states.... if so, when would she have done this? to change out of soiled undies she had on? but if she got up to do that after being put to bed, and was wearing what Patsy said she put her to bed in: the longjohns, then those longjohns would have been wet too, and I don't think she would have put the longjohns back on.... but she was found in the longjohns.

i know there are multiple levels of lies. trying to figure out what could/could not be true based on the stories given.

my. head. hurts.

If it gives us headaches imagine what it did for investigators.. Sorry about the ache whale it helps if you do this until you pass out>>>> :banghead:

 

[Whaleshark]

From above, as stated by Agatha, and noted here:
http://http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/...5/Second-Floor
...According to Internet poster (she who shall be nameless) "The package was left in the house when the police finished their investigation. Ramsey investigators took posession (sic) of the package." she also asserted: "The package was in her bedroom or bathroom - the police simply didn't understand how important it might be so left it." According to Internet poster Bluecrab: "My understanding is that the 12/14's were kept in the bedroom in their original packaging and had not been opened until the night of the murder."
When Was Package Turned Over to Boulder Investigators? Namelss One was not specific about timing, but claimed: "The package and panties, IMO, needed to be processed as evidence. I know it wasn't done when the BPD had the case." It was reported in mid-2003 that "investigators never even asked to see the other panties in the matching set her mother bought her (though the DA's office now has them, Wood says)." (Clay Evans, "We're Failing JonBenet" Boulder Daily Camera, June 15, 2003). It is not clear at what point in time this transfer to BPD would have been made, but presumably was sometime after the Boulder DA took over the case in late 2002 and June 2003. v
___

In the quoted statement above that I bolded and underlined - I don't believe that to be true....I don't think they would have ignored a pkg. of underwear.
In previous Patsy's testimony as noted, she is told that all the underwears removed from JBs drawer are all 4/6 size...not 8/10, not 12/14. They searched.... I think that discussion is already noted in thread earlier...

 

[Agatha_C]

From above, as stated by Agatha, and noted here:
http://http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/...5/Second-Floor
...According to Internet poster (she who shall be nameless) "The package was left in the house when the police finished their investigation. Ramsey investigators took posession (sic) of the package." she also asserted: "The package was in her bedroom or bathroom - the police simply didn't understand how important it might be so left it." According to Internet poster Bluecrab: "My understanding is that the 12/14's were kept in the bedroom in their original packaging and had not been opened until the night of the murder."
When Was Package Turned Over to Boulder Investigators? Namelss One was not specific about timing, but claimed: "The package and panties, IMO, needed to be processed as evidence. I know it wasn't done when the BPD had the case." It was reported in mid-2003 that "investigators never even asked to see the other panties in the matching set her mother bought her (though the DA's office now has them, Wood says)." (Clay Evans, "We're Failing JonBenet" Boulder Daily Camera, June 15, 2003). It is not clear at what point in time this transfer to BPD would have been made, but presumably was sometime after the Boulder DA took over the case in late 2002 and June 2003. v
___

In the quoted statement above that I bolded and underlined - I don't believe that to be true....I don't think they would have ignored a pkg. of underwear.
In previous Patsy's testimony as noted, she is told that all the underwears removed from JBs drawer are all 4/6 size...not 8/10, not 12/14. They searched.... I think that discussion is already noted in thread earlier...

You're right to not believe everything/anything She Who Shall Remain Nameless says. If those panties had been in the house and not hidden, LE would have taken them. You can find her real name on the site that came from. She is PRO ramsey and Queen of IDI, in fact I'm one of those, of a mind to believe she is paid to sprout her BS. He job is try and make LE look as stupid as the Rs (to be honest, they didnt need her help, they did a fine job on their own).

 

[madeleine]

Okay, why is it feeling more and more like they were both setting the other one up?

this is exactly what I was thinking about earlier.I just can't get something out of my head.whenever something doesn't make sense JR says (he even finds it interesting ,that's how I sensed it) the killer left those "little funny clues".Re the chair blocking the door,the psalms,the rn.....
if let's say PR left those clues for him,maybe he is trying to tell the cops "hey,look better,it's all there,you can get her"?
or did he leave all those clues and he's disappointed that no one is figuring it out?
he really seems to like to talk about those misterious little funny clues.....moo

ETA:hey,and then we got SBTC.that MUST be a clue or something.the thing is who was sending whom a message?

 

[madeleine]

i guess that it doesn't even really matter that much whether the big pnaties where in JB's drawer or wrapped in the basement.the point is,an intruder wouldn't have found them and wouldn't have bothered looking for some,risking to get caught.
i guess the important thing here is that someone needed to redress and clean JB.(get rid of evidence like dna,sperm,her blood,etc?make it look like nothing happened down there?)
WHY.
this always told me that the sexual assault/corporal punishment was NOT part of a staging!it was real and needed to be covered up,that's why they lie so much about it.

no need to go through all this if it was just an accident (head bash),the RN would have been enough.
this was very important for ther killer.to clean JB and redress her.
this was not about an accident,it can't be.

 

[madeleine]

okay this is just speculation but it crossed my mind.
what if someone caught JB masturbating and she needed to get punished?
dunno,their religious beliefs are a bit strange imo,maybe they considered masturbation a sin or something?
maybe this is how she ended up in the bathroom where she hit her head? (we need to clean your "dirty" hands now)?

 

[madeleine]

19 LOU SMIT: You didn't circle Bible passages?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE). They were leaving

21 little clues to analyze this.




9 JOHN RAMSEY: But I don't think she would

10 have drawn a heart on her hand. The trouble with

11 that piece of information, which is very bizarre.

12 Something is amiss there.

13 LOU SMIT: Okay. So we can investigate

14 that

15 there.

16 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)

17 JOHN RAMSEY: The person who did this

18 obviously (INAUDIBLE) clues to tantalize us. And

19 that's just another one (INAUDIBLE).






11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was blocked. He'd

12 have to move something to get into the room.

13 LOU SMIT: And he would have had to move

14 it back, if he was in there trying to get out, is

15 that correct?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

17 LOU SMIT: So that's not very logical as

18 far as --

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it is. I mean if this

20 person is that bizarrely clever to have not left

21 any good evidence, but left all these little funny

22 little clues around, they certain are clever

23 enough to pull the chair back when they left.






1 JOHN RAMSEY: I feel like we've exhausted

2 almost everything that we can do. I have racked my

3 brain everyday as to who could have possibly have

4 done this. What does the note mean, what does SBTC

5 mean. All these little clues that were left for

6 us.




So I think they were

6 teasing us.

7 MIKE KANE: By leaving the (INAUDIBLE)?

8 JOHN RAMSEY: Just like these all these

9 other little clues you see being left around?

10 MIKE KANE: Teasing you or teasing the police?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Teasing all of us.

12 MIKE KANE: What I'm thinking about teasing,

13 do you think that there's anything in there that's

14 trying purposely (INAUDIBLE) say a diversion to

15 fool the police or to fool you?





24 JOHN RAMSEY: No. The thought

25 crossed my mind, but I think -- no, I don't

0470

1 think that's the -- I didn't give him credit

2 for being that clever.

3 MIKE KANE: Why not?

4 JOHN RAMSEY: Because I think

5 they have left too many clues.




21 JOHN RAMSEY: Tried to put my

22 brain to it, just to try to figure out what

23 these clues mean, this person's life force.



22 JOHN RAMSEY: I guess it depends

23 on what other kind of evidence we have. And I

24 don't know other than what these clues have been

25 left around,

 

[cynic]

cynic,

Well it looks to me as if the Wine-Cellar is a convenient location to hide a body, and the blanket is a convenient artifact for encapsulating the body and other crime-scene items so to carry them to the interior of the Wine-Cellar. Job Done!

Undoing, Redoing, to me these are prior subjective states of mind that I have no access to.

I can tell you that while we can only speculate as to the mindset of whoever was involved in handling JBR in those final hours, we do know that feelings of remorse are not uncommon when a parent is involved in the death of their child.
Consequently, “undoing” the act in order to mitigate feelings of guilt is common enough to be included as a red flag in the criminal profiling “bible,” Crime Classification Manual.
There are often indicators of undoing. This is the killer’s way of expressing remorse or the desire to undo the murder. Undoing is demonstrated by the offender’s washing of the victim and the weapon. The body may be covered up, but it is not for concealment purposes. Washing or redressing the body, moving the body from the death scene, and positioning it on a sofa or bed with the head on a pillow are all expressions of undoing.
The attitude and emotional state of the family members present at the crime scene can offer insight into the victim-offender relationship The offender is often at the scene when law enforcement of emergency medical personnel arrive and often makes incriminating statements.
Crime Classification Manual, John Douglas, Robert Ressler, pages 155 – 156

After JonBenet being physically assaulted, whacked on the head, strangled, sexually molested, restrained with nylon cord etc, then placed into the Wine-Cellar. I fail to see why the blanket should assume any particular psychological significance, why not her size-12's, do these represent something in the mind of the stager?

I believe that they both have psychological relevance.
Here is what I said in the first post of my thread on “undoing.”

While it may be argued that certain actions were driven by the need to eliminate or, at least, reduce evidence, I believe that what profilers have characterized as “undoing” was evident in at least the following aspects of the crime scene.
Cleaning (Pelvic area wiped down)
Covering (Wrapped in a blanket)
Comforting (Nightgown, doll)
Redressing (New (oversized) underwear, long johns pulled up)
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126539"]The “Undoing” of the Ramseys. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[cynic]

Its a popular theory on many of the JBR forums that someone opened the FAO Schwarz presents, looking for the panties. Which would seem to be Patsy as she was the one to wrap them, she would have been the one to know that they were there. Makes sense to me and has been part of my theory for some time now. Yet something bothers me about this line of thought, why open so many of the gifts, shouldnt she have known just about what that package would have felt like and looked like? I mean they are just panties, the package wouldnt have been very big and unless placed in a box, easily felt through the wrapping. But! what if she told JR that the panties were down there and wrapped, he wouldnt have been as fast to find them as PR would have been. He may have had to open several, until he found the right package. Then again, it would mean that Patsy knew he was putting the wrong size panties on JBR.

Another thing that bothers me is the FAO Schwarz wrapping paper. Patsy claims those gifts were wrapped and shipped by the toy store itself, so how then did the Bloomingdale's panties end up in FAO wrapping when Bloomingdales offers the same service?

Grrrrrrr! One question always leads to many many more (LOL) Its like a puzzle missing half of its pieces and I fear that we will never see the whole picture.

Perhaps her purchases at Bloomingdales were not gift wrapped?
There is the possibility, then, that a larger present in FAO Schwarz wrapping was unwrapped and the Bloomies placed inside to make one large gift?

 

[cynic]

Whaleshark,

They may not have been in the basement, from memory Patsy stated she had already opened the size-12's, they may have been located elsewhere in the house, say in one of JonBenet's drawers, unopened. Did LHP not say words to this effect? Otherwise they could have been in one of Patsy's drawers awaiting her attention. e.g. her bedroom dresser?

Another aspect is where Patsy states she opened the gift packages one by one. Now why would she need to do this, it was her that purchased them?

There is obviously something important about the size-12's that we are missing. Its so important that the Ramsey's via Lin Wood returned six-pairs claiming that they were found in an unopened packing crate.


.

Re LHP

The source for this is the National Enquirer, so the usual caution applies.

They were printed with the word "Wednesday," the day on which Christmas Day fell in 1996. But they were a size 12 -- not JonBenet's size 6.
"Patsy told friends that she bought a set of 'day-of-the-week' panties for JonBenet and another set for an older niece," the insider revealed. "But JonBenet insisted on keeping both sets.
"Police believe JonBenet wore her regular 'Wednesday' panties on Christmas Day, but after the murder they were urine-stained.
"They think the little girl was re-dressed in the bigger panties after she was killed."
During a May 20 interview with investigators, the Ramseys' housekeeper Linda Hoffmann- Pugh "told them the larger panties were kept in a drawer and had never been taken out of their packaging before Christmas," said the insider.
"If a stranger had killed JonBenet, it would have been impossible for him to know where to find the panties." And no intruder would open a fresh pack of panties to put on the victim, cops say.

 

[cynic]

Not only did he see her in the dark, but through a wall and door! He yelled out prior to even entering the room enough to see where the body was placed. I think you should call the daily planet and the National Enquirer. lol.

There were a few people with, shall we say, “interesting” vision

LOU SMIT: Let's think back just a little bit, John, because sometimes that's important. The
sequence of things. First of all, I notice that you need glasses to read. How was it that you could read that note?
JOHN RAMSEY: It was fairly large print, as I recall. But I can read, if I have to.
LOU SMIT: What was the lighting like there?
JOHN RAMSEY: Seems to me it was -- I don't remember it being dark out. But the light was good.
John Ramsey 1998 interview.

(It was dark out by the way, the beginning of twilight would have been 6:49 A.M., sunrise at 7:20 A.M.)


TOM HANEY: Okay. And the note, and let me just hand you -- here is a copy of the note. If you just lay it out for us here on the table the way it was laid out. (WITNESS COMPLIES.)17 TOM HANEY: And that's if you're looking from the bottom it would be on like you said either the second—
PATSY RAMSEY: Like here to the steps going up.
TOM HANEY: Okay. Now, was there sufficient light from those sconces for you to read it?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
TOM HANEY: Do you wear glasses, contacts?
PATSY RAMSEY: No. I didn't then. I do now, a little bit. For reading.
TOM HANEY: Okay. Can you -- do you have your contacts in now?
PATSY RAMSEY: I don't have contacts, no.
TOM HANEY: Can you read this?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. You want me to read it to you?
TOM HANEY: No, no, that's fine. But could you read it then without any problem?
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
…
THOMAS HANEY: So if we start off with photo number 1, can you just describe that and talk to us about that.
…
THOMAS HANEY: Are there any other things in photo number 1 that you can identify, say on top of this trunk there is some blue clothing item. Light blue.
PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
THOMAS HANEY: Also at the foot of the bed, it's kind of hard to tell, it looks like –
PATSY RAMSEY: I need my glasses.
…
TOM HANEY: We talked yesterday about you leaning over John while he read the note on the floor, you said now you wear reading glasses, that morning you didn't have them.
PATSY RAMSEY: No.
TOM HANEY: How would you -- how bad was your reading then or your vision I mean? Could you see the note on the floor in front of him?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I still have good vision. It is just at night and when I really want to -- these are really magnification, but it does help a little bit.
Patsy Ramsey 1998 interview.

And last, but not least, we have the tall tales of “Eagle Eye” Fernie

John Fernie: "I drove my car into the -- up the alley and parked in the back of your house, and went around to the patio door, which was a glass door leading into the kitchen and back of the house, and didn't see anybody, but saw a piece of paper laying on the floor. Looked at that. It was facing the other direction. Read it. And after the first few lines realized something very strange was happening. And so I ran around to the front of the house and knocked on the door and was let in."
John Fernie: "I didn't pick it up. It was inside the door and I was outside. The door was locked. I read it through the door."
John Fernie: "Fleet and Priscilla White were there when I arrived. And my wife came shortly thereafter. And our -- Overstock, our priest, came afterwards as well."
John Fernie: "My recollection is that later in the day, when we were waiting for phone calls from the supposed kidnappers, we were sitting in the back room with a detective and trying to figure out what the note meant. And there was a copy of the note. I don't know if it was the note, or a copy of the note, actually."
2001 June 13 - Transcript Testimony of John Fernie - Colorado vs Miller trial

 

[UKGuy]

I can tell you that while we can only speculate as to the mindset of whoever was involved in handling JBR in those final hours, we do know that feelings of remorse are not uncommon when a parent is involved in the death of their child.
Consequently, “undoing” the act in order to mitigate feelings of guilt is common enough to be included as a red flag in the criminal profiling “bible,” Crime Classification Manual.
There are often indicators of undoing. This is the killer’s way of expressing remorse or the desire to undo the murder. Undoing is demonstrated by the offender’s washing of the victim and the weapon. The body may be covered up, but it is not for concealment purposes. Washing or redressing the body, moving the body from the death scene, and positioning it on a sofa or bed with the head on a pillow are all expressions of undoing.
The attitude and emotional state of the family members present at the crime scene can offer insight into the victim-offender relationship The offender is often at the scene when law enforcement of emergency medical personnel arrive and often makes incriminating statements.
Crime Classification Manual, John Douglas, Robert Ressler, pages 155 – 156

I believe that they both have psychological relevance.
Here is what I said in the first post of my thread on “undoing.”

While it may be argued that certain actions were driven by the need to eliminate or, at least, reduce evidence, I believe that what profilers have characterized as “undoing” was evident in at least the following aspects of the crime scene.
Cleaning (Pelvic area wiped down)
Covering (Wrapped in a blanket)
Comforting (Nightgown, doll)
Redressing (New (oversized) underwear, long johns pulled up)
The “Undoing” of the Ramseys. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

cynic,
There may be elements of undoing as you characterise it. For me we are dealing with a staged homicide, and one that displays more than one staging episode.

I would contend that the wine-cellar is not a staged crime-scene in the sense that this was where JonBenet was initially intended to be discovered.

If there was no pink nightgown or barbie doll present then your interpretation would be consistent with the crime-scene evidence.

Someone has placed the pink nightgown, barbie doll and JonBenet onto the white blanket then wrapped it all up, papoose style, and put it into the wine-cellar.

For the purpose of the staging neither the doll or nightgown are required, not even the blanket.

What matters is that JonBenet appears not to be present in the house, so if she had been placed either naked or dressed in the wine-cellar, minus the nightgown, doll and blanket, then the same purpose would have been achieved.

Considering the nature of the wine-cellar crime-scene, its not intended to represent the actual homicide location given the manner of JonBenet's disposition.

Whatever undoing is present, I reckon JonBenet along with the doll and nightgown has been quckly wrapped up together and bundled into the wine-cellar.

What was being undone was some prior staging that did not represent an abduction scenario, and patently the doll and nightgown could not be left there.

So for me the white blanket represents a container that allows JonBenet and artifacts to be transported en-masse to the basement, or wine-cellar.

Alternatively JonBenet was undressed in the basement, where her size-6's and pink nightgown were removed, why her doll should be present is an open question, then everything is bundled onto the blanket and she is placed into the wine-cellar.


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