Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #7

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Anyone think maybe KC did not return the gas cans because she was planning of setting fire to the car with the cans in the back and GA ruined her plans by calling the police and reporting the cans missing. Maybe that is why she was so mad when she handed the cans back to him...jmo
 
I don't post much, but been around for eons. I know I'm about two years late for this party, but anyways..

I have always thought that, after waking up in a cold sweat at Tony's. in the dark of the night...KC knew that eventually people would know that Caylee was dead. Her main concern was to throw suspicion off of her. I think she originally did want to burn or bury the body that she was lugging around in the trunk (gas and shovel) but all of that was so much darn work!
She knew, esp where she dumped Caylee, that she would eventually be found. If she hadn't wanted her to be found-she could have simply dumped into a real swamp which I'm sure was within a leisurely days drive while Tony was in school (assuming she had gas!)..I really have always thought that she put the duct tape (and sticker as a garish touch) on the baby to mimic perhaps some sort of serial/crazy killer episode on csi or something that she had seen on television. Her dramatic, half-arsed attempt to "throw them off her trail" just like Zani story.

Other then the duct tape portion, I agree. I really think KC put the baby to sleep in the trunk and planned on getting up early and going back home. She overslept and found a dead child in her trunk. God knows, similar things have happened in the past....far too many times.

indicajane welcome back from lurking! You have some great ideas, especially in regards to the gas cans!
 
indicajane welcome back from lurking! You have some great ideas, especially in regards to the gas cans!

Alright...everybody with less than 100 posts...out on the dance floor! Let's see some new moves :genie:
 
I don't post much, but been around for eons. I know I'm about two years late for this party, but anyways..

I have always thought that, after waking up in a cold sweat at Tony's. in the dark of the night...KC knew that eventually people would know that Caylee was dead. Her main concern was to throw suspicion off of her. I think she originally did want to burn or bury the body that she was lugging around in the trunk (gas and shovel) but all of that was so much darn work!
She knew, esp where she dumped Caylee, that she would eventually be found. If she hadn't wanted her to be found-she could have simply dumped into a real swamp which I'm sure was within a leisurely days drive while Tony was in school (assuming she had gas!)..I really have always thought that she put the duct tape (and sticker as a garish touch) on the baby to mimic perhaps some sort of serial/crazy killer episode on csi or something that she had seen on television. Her dramatic, half-arsed attempt to "throw them off her trail" just like Zani story.

Other then the duct tape portion, I agree. I really think KC put the baby to sleep in the trunk and planned on getting up early and going back home. She overslept and found a dead child in her trunk. God knows, similar things have happened in the past....far too many times.

First of all, I believe you are right on about the gas cans.


I hope you don't mind my posting on the heels of your post but, I've always been bugged about the duct tape and it's purpose for being there on Caylee. It's always been my understanding that when chloroform was administered, it was placed on a cloth over the nose and mouth to put the person to sleep but, it had to be watched closely or the person can doze and then become conscious. If KC had put Caylee to sleep with chloroform, I would think after a few minutes it would wear off and she would awake.........UNLESS, she used the duct tape to keep the cloth over the mouth and she could leave knowing she would continue to sleep. This would account for the red marks or discoloration in places on Caylee's face we see in some of the latest pictures while she was still alive. Seem far-fetched?
 
I think it's clear that the duct tape was not meant to come off. There are 2 possible explanations for that: (1) it was placed before death with the intent that it would never have to be removed, and thus was likely the murder weapon, or (2) it was placed after death to, as some have suggested, halt decomp fluids.

I think option #2 is questionable. I believe the duct tape could have been placed securely immediately after death, before decomp really got started, but to me "duct tape my baby's face with industrial strength duct tape" makes no sense as a response to the "oh my god I have to stop these fluids" panic.

REASON #1: Easiest way to stop fluids? Dump the body. "Stop the fluids" is a strange intermediate goal.

REASON #2: What are you looking for in that "stop the fluids" panic? Something strong (why?? to prevent the dead person from struggling??)--or something leak-proof? We already know perfectly well what Casey thinks of when she's looking for something leak-proof: 2 garbage bags and a lined laundry hamper. And in fact, she did find and use those things within a short period of time after Caylee's death. Did it really not occur to her to use plastic bags to contain fluids until AFTER it occurred to her to use duct tape, a tool that is not normally associated with fluid-containing tasks and thus would not spring to mind? And if for some reason Casey initially believed she only needed to contain the fluids from the head area, why not just put a plastic bag over the head? With duct tape around the bottom if she was really worried? Sure, it would look horrible, but not as horrible as several pieces of duct tape across her baby's face. And it's a lot less trouble, which Casey would appreciate.

REASON #3: The placement of the tape. If I were trying to contain decomp fluids from someone's face (I know I know), I would lay one piece over the eyes (could have been Q104, found at the scene), one over the nose (Q62?) and ears, one over the mouth (Q64?)...but what's the point of the diagonal piece (Q63)? Diagonal duct tape going under the chin might keep someone's jaw closed so they don't try to chew off the mouth duct tape, but wouldn't help stop any additional decomp fluids. So my guess is that it was one piece over the nose (Q62), one over the mouth (Q64), one diagonally and partly under the chin (Q63), and one to restrain the hands (Q104). Which indicates a live victim.

JWG's theory of the chloroform on the blanket has the ring of "truthiness" to me, though. Can anyone provide a good narrative to reconcile it with duct tape as the murder weapon?

If this were a superhero comic, I would be saying "Curses AZ, and your damned logic!":takeabow:

I admit I cannot fully reconcile the duct tape, and I often smack myself :doh: for backing the idea it was to stem decomp. In any accidental death scenario, the only reason I can offer as to why the duct tape was used happens to be to stem decomposition.

But then, a keep-it-simple scenario almost demands that the tape be applied in the garage. So either the murder took place in the garage, or the tape was applied post-mortem in the garage. Here's why.

We know from George and Cindy's depositions that the following items were kept in the garage:

  • Garbage bags
  • The laundry bag found with Caylee
  • The duct tape
We also know from neighbor Burner's interview he saw KC backed into her garage June 17, 18, and 19. A reasonable conclusion is that she was doing something in the garage.

  • If KC applied the duct tape in the house, she would have had to go into the garage, take the tape, go into the house and tear or cut four strips, apply them and wait for Caylee to die, and then calmly return the tape where it belonged.

  • If KC applied the duct tape away from the house, she would have had to go into the garage, take the tape and put it in her car, drive somewhere, tear or cut four strips, apply them and wait for Caylee to die, put the tape back into the car, and then next time she was home calmly return the tape where it belonged.

  • If KC applied the duct tape in the garage, she would take it off the shellf, tear or cut four strips, apply them, and then calmly return the tape where it belonged.
Which seems simpler? :waitasec: Take into that context the fact a kitchen knife was left in the car, as was Mama and one of KC's bags. I'm left with the distinct impression that if KC was not in the garage when she borrowed the tape, it would never have been returned to the garage. :snooty:

There is another possible scenario for applying the duct tape that occurred to me, and it is not for the faint of heart. :sick:

In 1998, an Arkansas man and his cousin left their two small daughters locked in a car as they looked for arrowheads and mushrooms just 90 feet or so away from the vehicle. The girls were in the car eight hours as temperatures climbed to the 80's. They died of heat exhaustion and dehydration. The point of mentioning that is not to enter into a discussion about the two men (turned out at least one of the men may have been high on meth). I mentioned this to point out that one of the girls was found with clumps of her hair in her fist. She had torn her hair out. The girl was 16 months old. :shakehead:

Now suppose a somewhat older Caylee is in her mother's trunk and manages to survive the drug-induced sleep her mother left her. She awakens around 9:00 AM on the 17th, and the trunk is just starting to broil like an oven. Her screams, muffled by the trunk and weakened by her condition, go unnoticed by the infrequent pedestrian traffic at the apartments. It takes only an hour - or less - for her to die. But during that time she pulled at her hair and clawed at her face. :cry:

When Casey found her lifeless body later that morning, she was horrified at what Caylee had done to her own face. Back at the Anthony home, Casey's remedy was to apply duct tape to cover the self-inflicted injuries, adding a little heart sticker as a psychopathic touch of love. :silenced: After all, the important thing is not that the child is dead, it is that we cover her flaws.

OK, now that I've really gone out there, :poke: carry on.
 
Oh, geez. I was really tryin' not to let my mind go there, JWG.

How 'bout...if for nothing other than the sake of our sanity...we take the lack of any fingerprints inside the trunk...and lack of excessive strands of hair there too...as a sign that Caylee didn't suffer that unimaginable torture.
 
When Casey found her lifeless body later that morning, she was horrified at what Caylee had done to her own face. Back at the Anthony home, Casey's remedy was to apply duct tape to cover the self-inflicted injuries, adding a little heart sticker as a psychopathic touch of love. :silenced: After all, the important thing is not that the child is dead, it is that we cover her flaws.

OK, now that I've really gone out there, :poke: carry on.

Unfortunately, I'm not so sure you've really 'gone out there'. :(

I can see Casey applying the duct tape for the reasons you stated.

IF this is the case, I believe she had to have found Caylee either immediately before or immediately after she died.

So...

  1. What time did she leave TL's?
  2. What time did Burner see her backed into the garage?

I'm too spent to go thread diving and I know you guys know these facts by heart. :)
 
Unfortunately, I'm not so sure you've really 'gone out there'. :(

I can see Casey applying the duct tape for the reasons you stated.

IF this is the case, I believe she had to have found Caylee either immediately before or immediately after she died.

So...

  1. What time did she leave TL's?
  2. What time did Burner see her backed into the garage?

I'm too spent to go thread diving and I know you guys know these facts by heart. :)

Based on phone records, she made it back to the 'rents around 2:30 PM, soon after George was guaranteed to have left.
 
FWIW...noodling around with variations on a theme here...

I characteristically rambled on [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4876476&postcount=320"]here[/ame] 'bout the option of Casey throwing the (potential) car cover from Amy's totalled car over the Pontiac to conceal Caylee in the backseat carseat overnight, resulting in the stains on the carseat and a 6/17 death...post-mortem duct tape application in the garage, etc.

Perhaps a hybrid of this approach would be Caylee surviving the night...hanging on, but, expiring...as narcissist Casey drives the Pontiac to Hopespring she is p.o.'d and furious that Cindy made her do this...and now WTH is she gonna do??!!. Caylee is in the final stages of death and producing [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_rattle"]"death rattle"[/ame] all the way to Hopespring.

By the time the two get to Hopespring Casey has worked herself into a rage and decides to 'fix it' (e.g. stop the "death rattle") with the duct tape. :waitasec:

ETA: The "death rattle" isn't a new idea. This was suggested in earlier threads by other members. Don't wanna give the impression this is something I was smart enough to come up with on my own. I just kinda like the way it could work in these scenarios we're discussing now...so I tossed it in.
 
FWIW...noodling around with variations on a theme here...

I characteristically rambled on here 'bout the option of Casey throwing the (potential) car cover from Amy's totalled car over the Pontiac to conceal Caylee in the backseat carseat overnight, resulting in the stains on the carseat and a 6/17 death...post-mortem duct tape application in the garage, etc.

Perhaps a hybrid of this approach would be Caylee surviving the night...hanging on, but, expiring...as narcissist Casey drives the Pontiac to Hopespring she is p.o.'d and furious that Cindy made her do this...and now WTH is she gonna do??!!. Caylee is in the final stages of death and producing "death rattle" all the way to Hopespring.

By the time the two get to Hopespring Casey has worked herself into a rage and decides to 'fix it' (e.g. stop the "death rattle") with the duct tape. :waitasec:

ETA: The "death rattle" isn't a new idea. This was suggested in earlier threads by other members. Don't wanna give the impression this is something I was smart enough to come up with on my own. I just kinda like the way it could work in these scenarios we're discussing now...so I tossed it in.

OK, but what about the chloroform in the trunk?
 
Anyone think maybe KC did not return the gas cans because she was planning of setting fire to the car with the cans in the back and GA ruined her plans by calling the police and reporting the cans missing. Maybe that is why she was so mad when she handed the cans back to him...jmo

hmmm. are we 100% certain that at no time did KC "try" to burn the evidence? good golly it gives me the heebie jeebies but uggg. there was "something" the JG did not say about Caylee's autopsy, and I have this creepin suspicion... hope I am wrong!

BondJamesBond- can u help me out here? (I think I have under 100 posts) or close to it...

ETA- my bad 130!
 
OK, but what about the chloroform in the trunk?

Chloroform? What chloroform? :whistle:

Did a little more searching tonight...found nothing, of course. :rolleyes:

I've been camped in solely-from-decomposition for so long. I'm not much use, am I?
 
hmmm. are we 100% certain that at no time did KC "try" to burn the evidence? good golly it gives me the heebie jeebies but uggg. there was "something" the JG did not say about Caylee's autopsy, and I have this creepin suspicion... hope I am wrong!

BondJamesBond- can u help me out here? (I think I have under 100 posts) or close to it...

ETA- my bad 130!

:) Thanks for popping in, GSnap. I shoulda said 100 +/- 30 :) Glad to hear some fresh ideas. I'm tryin' not to suck the air right outta this thread all by myself. Need input from people we haven't heard from to mix it up a little. I like some stuff new posters have already contributed to this thread so far. Love to see much more!

There's certainly allot we don't know. But, just FWIW, :twocents: I haven't read anything that suggest to me Casey had intentions of torching the body/car.
 
could an open container of gas and a decomposing body cause higher than normal levels of chloroform? and is it possible that casey left caylee somewhere else and on her way to the parents on the 17th stopped to go get her and found her dead or close to death and put her in the trunk on her way to the grandparents? if not already dead duct tape couldve been applied at that time to finally end her. sorry for the terminology guys. as in she duct taped her in the car nice and tight and left her there to die. returned the following day to try and dispose of her but quicly realised how impossible that was gonna be. took gas cans at that time put them in the trunk just in case she needed them for anything as she was trying to figure out what to do cuz she didnt want to stop at a gas station with a dead body in the trunk. remeber her text to amy about running out of gas two fridays in a row? we never heard who helped her out with that one cuz i suspect she already had the gas cans in her trunk. now i think its possible that she mightve put caylee in amys car on the 19th after amy went by to look at it. caylee dieing on the 17th and being transferred into amys car on the 19th would support the 2.6 days of decomp. i think she went back to amys car with tones or cindys car to dispose of caylee. imo
 
As much as I try to fit the known pieces of this puzzle together, the duct tape and the gas cans don't quite fit for me.

It seems likely that Caylee was sedated and put to bed in the trunk with her (possibly choloroformed, good theory) blanket.. just for a little while.

When KC discovered Caylee's lifeless body and realized she'd gone too far, she automatically went into cover up mode, as she apparently always has in other situations. She backed the car into the garage and taped/packaged Caylee's body in order to make it look like a botched kidnapping. Regardless of how creepy, kooky and deceptive KC appears to be, I cannot see her duct-taping a live Caylee's face out of rage. Even the anger she showed her parents during jail visits was rather feeble/impotent, and I just don't think she has that much emotional energy.

As far as the gas cans are concerned, perhaps she considered driving far away to dispose of the body, esp. when it became impossible to ignore the odor, or she wanted to try to cloak the odor with that of gas fumes.. I do think that she went into la-la land and chose to avoid dealing with it for as long as she could, which seems to be her MO. This is another element that is confusing. Attempting to torch the remains or other evidence would be like mounting a giant neon arrow overhead and isn't likely.

So, that's my little old :twocents:. The two most baffling elements (to me) are the duct tape and the gas cans. I do think that KC alone is responsible for little C's death. With all of the brilliance at work here, I'm sure that it'll be all figured out before the trial. :blowkiss:
 
As much as I try to fit the known pieces of this puzzle together, the duct tape and the gas cans don't quite fit for me.

It seems likely that Caylee was sedated and put to bed in the trunk with her (possibly choloroformed, good theory) blanket.. just for a little while.

When KC discovered Caylee's lifeless body and realized she'd gone too far, she automatically went into cover up mode, as she apparently always has in other situations. She backed the car into the garage and taped/packaged Caylee's body in order to make it look like a botched kidnapping.
.

(**respectfully snipped and bolded by me**)

Just brainstorming and adding to your theory.


She may not have realized the dangerous effects of the chloroform because of how movies portray its use...

Regardless of the Hollywood portrayal chloroform has received as an effective way to temporarily render someone unconscious without any residual effects, this substance can be dangerous. Using chloroform to put yourself to sleep is using the substance contrary to its intended use, and using it forcefully on another person to put the person to sleep is illegal.. http://sleep.lovetoknow.com/Chloroform_for_Sleep

Chloroform is a central nervous system depressant. At high levels it can also produce cardiac arrhythmias by sensitization to adrenaline. http://www.scorecard.org/chemical-profiles/html/chloroform.html

If this type scenario occurred she would not have been able to admit she had left a drugged unconscious baby in her trunk so that she could be with her boyfriend. She would have started to try to cover up and she may have gotten the idea of taping with duct tape from the movie Untraceable (clip below) and used the old stand by nanny excuse that had been working for her for a year and a half...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgsTa6uTb7M[/ame]

Crediting The WorldAccordingTo for the video:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4536971&postcount=545"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - News station found video of THE DUCT TAPE on posters at the Anthony home![/ame]
 
All of you have such intuitive theories. I am anxious to see which theory the SA uses. I personally think she drugged her to keep her quiet in the trunk. Panic ensued when she found her dead- went the kidnapping route and used the duct tape to make it look like someone took her. Then I think she composed herself, snapped her red ruby heels to make it all go away and then went about her life. She just didn't have the energy to pull of the kidnapping story, perhaps she knew she wouldn't get away with it or perhaps the exact opposite, she didn't really care- she escaped reality, created a new one. Could never be an attorney or a detective because the details are so many they get muddled. I guess this is just my general theory.
 
You're right, comom.. so much to consider. The shovel, the cadaver dog hits in the yard, the chloroform, etc. internet searches. Just trying to wrap one's head around the "how" is nothing compared to trying to fathom the "why". It is why this case is so dreadfully compelling.
 
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