Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #7

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According to Amy, who saw Caylee the morning of June 10 in Ricardo's apt. (for the last time ) Caylee was not wearing the "Big Trouble" t-shirt. Amy said she didn't remember ever seeing that shirt before. If Casey always 'kept" the Big Trouble t-shirt at Ricardos, she would not have had access to it on June 16. According to Ricardo's interview,after June 10 Ricardo didn't see Casey at all except for when Casey stayed over with Amy the week in July when Tony was out of town.

I don't believe Cindy never saw the Big Trouble t-shirt before. Cindy also said that Caylee didn't wear shirts with writing on them. IIRC another Circo shirt in the same size WITH writing (I Get My Good Looks from My Mother) from the same lot # was taken by LE when the Anthony house was searched.

I think this is important because this is the t-shirt she was wearing at the crime scene and it is also looks like the t-shirt in the photo at Rm's house. To me it looks like something a young person bought for her. It does not look like something Ca would buy for her. I am not sure why I feel that way. It seems reasonable to me to see it as a pajama top, not something to wear out in public because of what it says. At anyrate, I think she probably kept a pajama top at Rm's when she was going out with him. In the picture it does appear to be a picture from a bedroom with a dresser drawer open. May have left it there, because she knew Ca would not approve of it. Perhaps she put it in the car when she left his house on the 10th. If I were Le, I would have gone back there after dec 11th and checked his house for the clothes that Ga described and the shoes. IMO
 
I think this is important because this is the t-shirt she was wearing at the crime scene and it is also looks like the t-shirt in the photo at Rm's house. To me it looks like something a young person bought for her. It does not look like something Ca would buy for her. I am not sure why I feel that way. It seems reasonable to me to see it as a pajama top, not something to wear out in public because of what it says. At anyrate, I think she probably kept a pajama top at Rm's when she was going out with him. In the picture it does appear to be a picture from a bedroom with a dresser drawer open. May have left it there, because she knew Ca would not approve of it. Perhaps she put it in the car when she left his house on the 10th. If I were Le, I would have gone back there after dec 11th and checked his house for the clothes that Ga described and the shoes. IMO


It does appear to be the same shirt. I agree with the "genre" of the shirt being young...... If it is in fact, a pajama top......it would be required to be labeled as "flame retardant". All sleepwear must not only be flame retardant, but labeled as such.

Being a regular Target Shopper.......I can say that they have lots of t-shirts with sayings and comments available on a regular basis. In fact I was appalled last year when they offered athletic shorts for toddlers with things like Cutie written on the bottoms. I don't think KC would have left a shirt elsewhere for fear of disapproval........but that's just my own gut feeling.

Additionally, what would have been the probable cause for LE to obtain a warrant to search for Caylee's clothing?
 
BBM. Any ideas on where she would have been so that TL would not have seen her if she wasn't in the trunk?

Maybe Lee's house?

I've always thought that KC used Lee's house as a temporary "babysitter" for Caylee whenever possible. I wonder if she had a key to his place? I live about the same distance from my brother, and we have keys to each other's places...:waitasec:
 
If you happened to read the "Thanks to AZLawyer" thread you'll see that I'm fortunate enough that she tolerates my emails, entertains my nonsense and gives me her opinion on occasion. And that for some time now I've been anticipating a, "Bond. :shakehead: How could you be so ignorant?!" response. Well, I came close to that today when AZ noted the following snippet in my opening post on this thread...

Since Amy's first text is otherwise unprovoked, and unfortunately we don't have Amy's cell records to prove it, I speculate that Amy sent the message after getting a vmail left by Casey @ 7:21PM.
*snipped & bbm*

AZ commented, "I noticed you said we didn't have Amy's phone records. But we do..." :doh:

Having Amy's cell record was completely out of my consciousness. :snooty: So...thanks to AZ I spent just a little quality time :rolleyes: w/ Amy's cell record this afternoon which yielded the following nonsense that may provide just a little more insight into the fateful evening of 6/16. :read:


OBSERVATION 1:
Amy's cell didn't register the 7:20PM call from Casey, indicating that Amy's phone was OFF (or out of range). Which now explains Casey doing a double-take call @ 7:21PM. Casey noted that the 7:20PM call to Amy rolled immediately to vmail and hung-up. Then she thought about it :waitasec: and decided she wanted to leave a message. From before, I speculate this was another in the series of, "What time to you get off work?" variety that would've provided insight as to Casey's mindset/plans for the evening...esp. as it relates to Caylee-care options.​


OBSERVATION 2:
At 9:01PM (call #230) Amy checked her own vmail....getting the 7:21PM message from Casey. Note Casey's message was 42 seconds long and Amy's vmail check was 1 minute. :thumb:

  • 230 06/16/08 09:01P (954) ###-9214 VMAIL 1 min

Amy was prolly on break @ TGIF's and immediately called Casey back (call #231) @ 9:02PM

  • 231 06/16/08 09:02P (407) ###-9286 WINTERPARK 2 min

OBSERVATION C:
It is interesting to note that Casey's phone didn't show us the incoming call from Amy @ 9:02PM (#231), yet it did show us @ 9:04PM the incoming text that notified Casey of the 2 min-long vmail Amy left. And that vmail went unchecked all night. Casey didn't answer it, and whether or not she noticed it, she didn't check her vmail for whatever reason. :waitasec:

Same thing happened again as Casey's first cell phone transaction the following morning, 6/17. Amy called (call #240)...no incoming call shown, but, an incoming text to Casey 1 minute later notified her she had a vmail waiting.

  • 240 06/17/08 10:51A (407) ###-9286 WINTERPARK 1 min

Phone being off wouldn't explain this behavior. Hitting "ignore" might???

MORE IMPORTANTLY... :waitasec: perhaps this info tells us that BY 9:02PM Casey wasn't pursuing follow-up w/ Amy? Is it telling us that Casey KNEW Caylee's fate was sealed already...or that she just dint give a d@mn (inhaling will do that) and had given up actively pursuing anything on Caylee's behalf for the night?!? :furious:

Since this phone 'behavior' began when Mark H's incoming call came in while Casey was with Tony @ Blockbuster...was there a mode that Casey could've/would've put her phone in that would explain this?? Sometimes my phone will notify me I have a vmail waiting when there was no incoming call ring. Seems to happen for no rhyme or reason. Was this happening to Casey @ a time when Caylee's care hung in the balance??​
 
It does appear to be the same shirt. I agree with the "genre" of the shirt being young...... If it is in fact, a pajama top......it would be required to be labeled as "flame retardant". All sleepwear must not only be flame retardant, but labeled as such.

Being a regular Target Shopper.......I can say that they have lots of t-shirts with sayings and comments available on a regular basis. In fact I was appalled last year when they offered athletic shorts for toddlers with things like Cutie written on the bottoms. I don't think KC would have left a shirt elsewhere for fear of disapproval........but that's just my own gut feeling.

Additionally, what would have been the probable cause for LE to obtain a warrant to search for Caylee's clothing?



I think it is great that it is required fire retardant and to be labled as such. I think the label may also be required on the duct tape. But to answer your question, to find the shoes. Heck I just want to know. lol
 
James T. thread #2 [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103566"]here[/ame] for continuing discussion of his statements.
 
Does anyone remember when it was that TL says he woke up and found KC looking at the MD video and crying? I wonder when CA put the video on the computer??
 
*** SNIP ***

MORE IMPORTANTLY... :waitasec: perhaps this info tells us that BY 9:02PM Casey wasn't pursuing follow-up w/ Amy? Is it telling us that Casey KNEW Caylee's fate was sealed already...or that she just dint give a d@mn (inhaling will do that) and had given up actively pursuing anything on Caylee's behalf for the night?!? :furious:

Since this phone 'behavior' began when Mark H's incoming call came in while Casey was with Tony @ Blockbuster...was there a mode that Casey could've/would've put her phone in that would explain this?? Sometimes my phone will notify me I have a vmail waiting when there was no incoming call ring. Seems to happen for no rhyme or reason. Was this happening to Casey @ a time when Caylee's care hung in the balance??​

I am definitely coming around to Bond's way of thinking , which is that Caylee died after 6 PM on the 16th, away from home. This was largely triggered by Casey's poor planning for that evening, resulting in her inability to rope someone into Caylee-care. :shakehead: Originally I had been focused on the time period before 4PM, but Bond's arguments around the cell records supporting Casey's standard operating procedure are just too great. :thumb: Throw on top of that the fact Caylee was found without shoes and wearing what seemed to be her away-from-home pajama top, and it certainly does appear Caylee was with Casey up to bed time.

I then get around to that chloroform signature found in the trunk. Up until the point when Oak Ridge's final report was released, I was pretty self-convinced that the "high-levels" of chloroform were due to some external source amplifying a normal decompositional event. Options included chlorinated pool water in the lungs and Febreeze. But then that final report came out telling us the positive control sample (dead-baby blanket from Montana) had zero chloroform and that the levels found in Casey's trunk were a million times higher than normally found with a decomposing adult. :eek: On top of that, Dr. Vass's emails with OCSO showed he was clearly alarmed by the chloroform levels and suspected a not-so-innocent explanation. :eek: As hard as it might be to believe, the science seems to indicate chloroform really was used on Caylee to put her to sleep that night.

The question comes up time and again though, if chloroform were used to knock Caylee out, was it somehow spilled in the trunk? The signature is missing from the car's interior and from the white garbage bag. The high levels are found only in the trunk. Why?

Using a not-so-new thought to tie the above together, it is probable that chloroform was applied to something that comforted Caylee as she went to sleep - the Winnie the Pooh blanket. Clearly OCSO and the FBI felt that it was applied to something that comforted her, because they tested both the car seat and her "mama" doll, :sleuth: coming up negative. I don't recall seeing a test on the blanket, but given it lay in a swamp for 6 months I doubt they'd find anything.

So I've been lead by the ear now to believe that when Casey could not find Caylee-care that she got her ready for "bed", and used the blanket to help her sleep. The indications seem to be this was all done from the trunk.

My first inclination would be to believe Casey would not be so stupid as to leave Caylee in a hot car where she would certainly die due to heat stroke. But I looked at the weather records for that day, and see that Casey could have been lulled :deal: into believing it would be OK. It had been in the 80's earlier, but around 3:30 that area of Orlando got roughly 1/2 inch of rain, and the temperature dropped to the low 70's, where it stayed for the rest of the evening. Skies were overcast. So to a simple mind :loser: it may have actually seemed a "safe" thing to do.

The problem is, Casey and Tony "slept in" the next morning. By 9:00 AM it was 80 degrees with a few scattered clouds. If Caylee was not already dead, the morning heat would have killed her fairly quickly. :cry:
 
My first inclination would be to believe Casey would not be so stupid as to leave Caylee in a hot car where she would certainly die due to heat stroke. But I looked at the weather records for that day, and see that Casey could have been lulled :deal: into believing it would be OK. It had been in the 80's earlier, but around 3:30 that area of Orlando got roughly 1/2 inch of rain, and the temperature dropped to the low 70's, where it stayed for the rest of the evening. Skies were overcast. So to a simple mind :loser: it may have actually seemed a "safe" thing to do.

The problem is, Casey and Tony "slept in" the next morning. By 9:00 AM it was 80 degrees with a few scattered clouds. If Caylee was not already dead, the morning heat would have killed her fairly quickly. :cry:

--repsectfully snipped

Okay...your theory works for me, but when does the duct tape come in?


btw, your entire theory makes sense, I just snipped for brevity
 
--repsectfully snipped

Okay...your theory works for me, but when does the duct tape come in?


btw, your entire theory makes sense, I just snipped for brevity


JWG -- I'm echoing Beach2yall. The theory works for me too, but about the duct tape....

she would have had to have had the duct tape in the car either a) for another purpose entirely or b)she thought she might have needed it a backup if Caylee- care failed, which aparently it did. But, I suppose if she thought ahead far enough to manufacture or procure (or pilfer) chloroform to knock her out, she would have also had the "foresight" to get the duct tape as well.

ETA - it seems like "intent" is being brought to light here. We just don't really know if her intent was to knock Caylee out for the night or for good.
 
JWG -- I'm echoing Beach2yall. The theory works for me too, but about the duct tape....

she would have had to have had the duct tape in the car either a) for another purpose entirely or b)she thought she might have needed it a backup if Caylee- care failed, which aparently it did. But, I suppose if she thought ahead far enough to manufacture or procure (or pilfer) chloroform to knock her out, she would have also had the "foresight" to get the duct tape as well.

ETA - it seems like "intent" is being brought to light here. We just don't really know if her intent was to knock Caylee out for the night or for good.

BBM

Same here. I just don't think I can jump the hurdle that 3 pieces of strategically placed duct tape weren't intended to cause Caylee's demise.
 
The duct tape went into Caylee's hair. Caylee's hair had to be cut by the medical examiners to get the tape off. One of the dangers of taping over the mouth of an adult is that removing the tape often pulls the skin off of the lips: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gag


As I said before, no shoes for Caylee, no change of clothes, no snacks, no teddy bear, no crayons, no books...I am not seeing that Casey made provisions for Caylee to be dropped off with anyone but Cindy (who already was child equipped). I also think if Casey stuffed Caylee into her trunk gagged and with all of her airways covered up, Casey wasn't expecting Caylee to come out of the trunk alive. Casey couldn't bring Caylee back home to Cindy with hair chopped off and skin ripped off of Caylee's face.

BBM

Exactly. I am trying to figure out how to bridge the theory JWG proposed with what you just said here. The duct tape and the fact that she left the house w/o ANY of the essentials. If I could figure that part out, I would feel 100% comfortable with that theory


eta: Just want to say that I think the pings are vital to many aspects, especially the timeline. However, I don't think we can rely on them soley to tell us intention or motive.
 
My opinion is she probably applied the one piece of tape over the mouth/nose area right after Caylee was asleep. My guess is she applied the chloroform to the blanket and then let Caylee fall asleep in her carseat; she then moved her to the trunk and put the duct tape over her mouth in case she woke up sooner than anticipated and wanted to scream. When she discovered her error in leaving caylee in the trunk with that much chloroform over a long period of time and her jaw was gaping she applied the second set of duct tape around her head, etc to keep the jaw closed.

I am pretty sure this would allow the duct tape to stick to the skin (one of the big arguments for applying the duct tape too late) of her face and still allow everything to 'fit'.

Of course there is probably something that hasn't occurred to me and all this is MOO
 
I really don't think Casey is bright enough to understand that taking duct tape off someone's face is a problem. She probably thought it was like removing other things - apply a little baby oil.....

and it wouldn't be her fault anyway - after all, no-one was available to watch the kid so she HAD to do it that way... MOO
 
BBM

Exactly. I am trying to figure out how to bridge the theory JWG proposed with what you just said here. The duct tape and the fact that she left the house w/o ANY of the essentials. If I could figure that part out, I would feel 100% comfortable with that theory


eta: Just want to say that I think the pings are vital to many aspects, especially the timeline. However, I don't think we can rely on them soley to tell us intention or motive.

I think it's clear that the duct tape was not meant to come off. There are 2 possible explanations for that: (1) it was placed before death with the intent that it would never have to be removed, and thus was likely the murder weapon, or (2) it was placed after death to, as some have suggested, halt decomp fluids.

I think option #2 is questionable. I believe the duct tape could have been placed securely immediately after death, before decomp really got started, but to me "duct tape my baby's face with industrial strength duct tape" makes no sense as a response to the "oh my god I have to stop these fluids" panic.

REASON #1: Easiest way to stop fluids? Dump the body. "Stop the fluids" is a strange intermediate goal.

REASON #2: What are you looking for in that "stop the fluids" panic? Something strong (why?? to prevent the dead person from struggling??)--or something leak-proof? We already know perfectly well what Casey thinks of when she's looking for something leak-proof: 2 garbage bags and a lined laundry hamper. And in fact, she did find and use those things within a short period of time after Caylee's death. Did it really not occur to her to use plastic bags to contain fluids until AFTER it occurred to her to use duct tape, a tool that is not normally associated with fluid-containing tasks and thus would not spring to mind? And if for some reason Casey initially believed she only needed to contain the fluids from the head area, why not just put a plastic bag over the head? With duct tape around the bottom if she was really worried? Sure, it would look horrible, but not as horrible as several pieces of duct tape across her baby's face. And it's a lot less trouble, which Casey would appreciate.

REASON #3: The placement of the tape. If I were trying to contain decomp fluids from someone's face (I know I know), I would lay one piece over the eyes (could have been Q104, found at the scene), one over the nose (Q62?) and ears, one over the mouth (Q64?)...but what's the point of the diagonal piece (Q63)? Diagonal duct tape going under the chin might keep someone's jaw closed so they don't try to chew off the mouth duct tape, but wouldn't help stop any additional decomp fluids. So my guess is that it was one piece over the nose (Q62), one over the mouth (Q64), one diagonally and partly under the chin (Q63), and one to restrain the hands (Q104). Which indicates a live victim.

JWG's theory of the chloroform on the blanket has the ring of "truthiness" to me, though. Can anyone provide a good narrative to reconcile it with duct tape as the murder weapon?
 
JWG's theory of the chloroform on the blanket has the ring of "truthiness" to me, though. Can anyone provide a good narrative to reconcile it with duct tape as the murder weapon?

--respectfully snipped

AZ, I agree with every.single.word of your post. While trying to make the stretch of the tape being placed post-death, I too, had considered reasons #'s 1 & 2. They make no sense to me. I just don't believe Casey even thought that 'deep'. If it was an accident, she would have gone with reason #1, IMO. (thinking the same way she did when she abandoned the car at Amscott. que sara sara, iykwim)

I had never even thought about reason #3. And, I can pretty much betcha if it didn't occur to me, it didn't occur to fly-by-the-seat-of-her-pants Casey Anthony.

Not to get O/T, but I CAN see her going back to the scene after she thinks she might have screwed up, like we discussed in another thread.
 
BBM

Same here. I just don't think I can jump the hurdle that 3 pieces of strategically placed duct tape weren't intended to cause Caylee's demise.

I can't either - and if I was on that jury, they had better be giving me another darn good explanation of how and why that tape got there. But I don't think they can do that, as Casey is still claiming that Zanaida Gonzales kidnapped Caylee (and then possibly had Caylee kidnapped a second time from her, as the letter to Robyn seemed to indicate...).
 
I don't post much, but been around for eons. I know I'm about two years late for this party, but anyways..

I have always thought that, after waking up in a cold sweat at Tony's. in the dark of the night...KC knew that eventually people would know that Caylee was dead. Her main concern was to throw suspicion off of her. I think she originally did want to burn or bury the body that she was lugging around in the trunk (gas and shovel) but all of that was so much darn work!
She knew, esp where she dumped Caylee, that she would eventually be found. If she hadn't wanted her to be found-she could have simply dumped into a real swamp which I'm sure was within a leisurely days drive while Tony was in school (assuming she had gas!)..I really have always thought that she put the duct tape (and sticker as a garish touch) on the baby to mimic perhaps some sort of serial/crazy killer episode on csi or something that she had seen on television. Her dramatic, half-arsed attempt to "throw them off her trail" just like Zani story.

Other then the duct tape portion, I agree. I really think KC put the baby to sleep in the trunk and planned on getting up early and going back home. She overslept and found a dead child in her trunk. God knows, similar things have happened in the past....far too many times.
 
AZlawyer: Pre-death. Duct tape would not stop the fluids. Do you see KC actually trying to stop fluids with the duct tape....why under the chin...no fluids there....I think you are right if KC saw fluids she would have head for the bags, who wouldn't. That is my first thought when something is leaking in the refrigerator....grab a bag.

Note to self: Remind me to send a message to my Mom....and let me put a heart-shaped sticker on it so she knows it's from me.

JMO
 
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