This thread is for the posters that believe Caylee is still alive # 2

[unsaid]

Does anyone know if the "death ring" in hair can be caused by something other than death?

That's the question of the year! That's what I'm wondering. I'm gonna do some internet searches on that and post links to the findings.

 

[unsaid]

Okay....I'm making a little progress. I found out that the death ring science is called "Forensic Taphonomy". Taphonomy is the study of what happens to a body after death. So I'm reading up on that....if anyone cares to join me in researching.

 

[beetrue]

I hope Caylee is alive and found. I would like to also see all the haters, protestors, and media "eat it". I would like to see a huge lesson learned of respecting our consitutional rights. Most of all, it's horrible to think another child is gone by negligence or murder.

Do you think any of the protestors would apologise to the family,if she is found alive?
I don't.

 

[beetrue]

Does anyone know if the "death ring" in hair can be caused by something other than death?

This alone confuses hairdressers that learned the science of hair.

 

[unsaid]

This alone confuses hairdressers that learned the science of hair.

Can you elaborate on that?

 

[zadari]

I hope Caylee is alive and found. I would like to also see all the haters, protestors, and media "eat it". I would like to see a huge lesson learned of respecting our consitutional rights. Most of all, it's horrible to think another child is gone by negligence or murder.

Do you think any of the protestors would apologise to the family,if she is found alive?
I don't.

i think alot of them are congreting out there because there is media and they may get thier two seconds on tv .. they are doing it for attention ..now if they are TES searches that is alittle different because they are ALSO searching for caylee ..

 

[Evan's Mom]

I was wondering, since they found chloroform in the trunk, could that have degraded the hair sample or mimic the death ring.
I've been researching it since unsaid posted the proper term to search under and this is one thing I found, but didn't completely understand:

Abstract
We have assessed the histological preservation of naturally degraded human hair shafts, and then assayed each for levels of amplifiable mitochondrial DNA and damage-associated DNA miscoding lesions. The results indicate that as sample histology is altered (i.e. as hairs degrade) levels of amplifiable mitochondrial DNA decrease, but no correlation is seen between histology and absolute levels of mitochondrial DNA miscoding lesions. Nevertheless, amplifiable mitochondrial DNA could be recovered across the complete range of the histological preservation spectrum. However, when template copy number is taken into consideration, a correlation of miscoding lesions with histology is again apparent. These relationships indicate that a potential route for the generation of misleading mitochondrial sequence data exists in samples of poor histology. Therefore, we argue that in the absence of molecular cloning, the histological screening of hair may be necessary in order to confirm the reliability of mitochondrial DNA sequences amplified from hair, and thus represents a useful tool in forensic mitochondrial DNA analyses.

 

[harleysnana]

In order to really maintain optimism here, you have to believe that LE's report of the hair (belonging to either KC or Caylee) in the trunk with the death ring is a lie, right?

I have to tell you - without that - I would be on this thread. What do you do with that evidence?

Like I said in my post before.... I will believe the evidence when it
is presented in court!
LE lies all the time.
It is possible they put that information out in hopes to get a
confession from Casey.
JMO

 

[beetrue]

Can you elaborate on that?

Hairs are composed of dead cells.

 

[unsaid]

I was wondering, since they found chloroform in the trunk, could that have degraded the hair sample or mimic the death ring.
I've been researching it since unsaid posted the proper term to search under and this is one thing I found, but didn't completely understand:

Abstract
We have assessed the histological preservation of naturally degraded human hair shafts, and then assayed each for levels of amplifiable mitochondrial DNA and damage-associated DNA miscoding lesions. The results indicate that as sample histology is altered (i.e. as hairs degrade) levels of amplifiable mitochondrial DNA decrease, but no correlation is seen between histology and absolute levels of mitochondrial DNA miscoding lesions. Nevertheless, amplifiable mitochondrial DNA could be recovered across the complete range of the histological preservation spectrum. However, when template copy number is taken into consideration, a correlation of miscoding lesions with histology is again apparent. These relationships indicate that a potential route for the generation of misleading mitochondrial sequence data exists in samples of poor histology. Therefore, we argue that in the absence of molecular cloning, the histological screening of hair may be necessary in order to confirm the reliability of mitochondrial DNA sequences amplified from hair, and thus represents a useful tool in forensic mitochondrial DNA analyses.

Wow Evan's Mom! Great work! You could be on to something with the chloroform thing.

I looked up histology. It's the study of tissues under a microscope.

"The results indicate that as sample histology is altered (i.e. as hairs degrade) levels of amplifiable mitochondrial DNA decrease, but no correlation is seen between histology and absolute levels of mitochondrial DNA miscoding lesions."---

Maybe that's why they can't determine if it's Casey or Caley's hair??

What I'd like to know is the name of the chemicals that are released after death that form the death ring so we can find out if those chemicals can release in any other way or if anything can mimic those chemicals (such as chloroform).

 

[unsaid]

Hairs are composed of dead cells.

Okay gotcha. It wasn't that the hair was dead, it was that there were chemicals on the hair that release after a person dies. Those formed this "death ring" on the hair that leads LE to think the hair came from a dead body. So supposedly only a dead person's head would have this ring.

 

[beetrue]

Okay gotcha. It wasn't that the hair was dead, it was that there were chemicals on the hair that release after a person dies. Those formed this "death ring" on the hair that leads LE to think the hair came from a dead body. So supposedly only a dead person's head would have this ring.

Yes, I have read and heard that. It's not so much chemicals, but bacteria. I am not so sure that evidence can be used. Chlorine mixed with organic materials can create chloroform. Chlorine can decompose hair. Casey highlights and dyes her hair. Swimming in chlorinated water drastically effects the hair -which is why there are so many hair treatments to help reverse chlorine damage of hair.

I was going to come and post about that. But, I see someone already has. In my mind, it will be hard to prove the hair came from a dead body if the argument of chlorine and other forensics are brought up. and I am sure it will be. Science is not always definitive. That is why we continue to do research.
However, the chloroform searches on the computer is odd. It won't be so odd, if the searches were done after the family was told chloroform was found. who knows...

what's really odd is, phenol -chloroform is used in mitochondrial dna testing; actually most dna testing.

 

[unsaid]

Yes, I have read and heard that. It's not so much chemicals, but bacteria. I am not so sure that evidence can be used. Chlorine mixed with organic materials can create chloroform. Chlorine can decompose hair. Casey highlights and dyes her hair. Swimming in chlorinated water drastically effects the hair -which is why there are so many hair treatments to help reverse chlorine damage of hair.

I was going to come and post about that. But, I see someone already has. In my mind, it will be hard to prove the hair came from a dead body if the argument of chlorine and other forensics are brought up. and I am sure it will be. Science is not always definitive. That is why we continue to do research.
However, the chloroform searches on the computer is odd. It won't be so odd, if the searches were done after the family was told chloroform was found. who knows...

what's really odd is, phenol -chloroform is used in mitochondrial dna testing.

Thanks beetrue! Great insights!

 

[Lovejac]

h.
However, the chloroform searches on the computer is odd. It won't be so odd, if the searches were done after the family was told chloroform was found. who knows...


Hey beetrue, the reason LE tested for chloroform is because of what the computer specialist found. What I mean is, computer forensics found the searches for chloroform on casey's laptop and that is what prompted them to test for chloroform.

 

[Lovejac]

what's really odd is, phenol -chloroform is used in mitochondrial dna testing; actually most dna testing.

A defense attorney on NG made that statement the other night but, a Dr. Baden stated that phenol-chloroform IS used in tests, however all of those test are done in the lab. I read on another thread (sorry I can't remember which one!) that it was the Body Farm that tested for chloroform by 'air test'.

 

[whiteangora]

Okay gotcha. It wasn't that the hair was dead, it was that there were chemicals on the hair that release after a person dies. Those formed this "death ring" on the hair that leads LE to think the hair came from a dead body. So supposedly only a dead person's head would have this ring.

If I'm not mistaken, it is bacteria on the follicle (root) that forms when a hair comes from a deceased person. At least that's what the forensic experts have said.
Also, if they looked at Casey's hair vs Caylee's hair the one big difference would be that Casey's hair shows abuse of colorings and Caylee's would not.
This would show up under the microscope and show the shaft as ruffled or
spikey, a child's hair would be more smooth.
Hope this helps

 

[unsaid]

If I'm not mistaken, it is bacteria on the follicle (root) that forms when a hair comes from a deceased person. At least that's what the forensic experts have said.
Also, if they looked at Casey's hair vs Caylee's hair the one big difference would be that Casey's hair shows abuse of colorings and Caylee's would not.
This would show up under the microscope and show the shaft as ruffled or
spikey, a child's hair would be more smooth.
Hope this helps

Cool, thanks! I think you're right about it being a bacteria. I'll search on that.

So I'm willing to believe in the certainty that this is Caylee's hair. I just don't know about that bacteria only being on a cadaver's head.

 

[beetrue]

h.
However, the chloroform searches on the computer is odd. It won't be so odd, if the searches were done after the family was told chloroform was found. who knows...


Hey beetrue, the reason LE tested for chloroform is because of what the computer specialist found. What I mean is, computer forensics found the searches for chloroform on casey's laptop and that is what prompted them to test for chloroform.

Although I did not post that as a question; it was something I was wanting to ask. Thank you for pre-emptively answering! haha. Geez, if someone did use chloroform in the trunk to cover something or... whatever - it would seem very stupid, considering it is used for DNA testing. Wouldn't that just help preserve DNA evidence and help forensics? My studies have not gone past med biology. However, my close friend -ex-mortician-now- lab forensics might be able to answer that. I should call her. Do you know? Would chloroform preserve evidence?

Sorry WS for going off-topic. Is there a separate thread for this?

 

[buster1234]

I check in on the Cam once in a while to see these protesters, but I don't think it should be up.

I agree. I look at it too. It isn't right though - isn't that awful? I feel like the poor grandparents are in jail or something. My gosh they aren't even charged with anything. They have strangers in their home, people coming to their doors, anyone can access a view of their house and at any time of the day AND the whole world knows that any home protection they had is now gone. That is safe - no?? The only consolation to that is that everything is on camera and hopefully no one would be stupid enough to confront them on camera.

 

[MissOtk]

I’ve been a lurker here for quite some time and since I noticed there’s a thread dedicated specifically for those of who are not convinced Caylee is dead, I decided to join.

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and opinions, I enjoy reading them.

I may be a bit behind so I apologize if me asking questions offends or irritates anyone. I’m most interested to know what, exactly happened with the “strong lead” regarding a woman (I think her last name was Wray) who was convinced that she saw (and spoke to) Caylee at the airport? I don’t remember reading why that didn’t pan out. Anyone know?

One reason I am not convinced that Caylee is dead is simply because LE everywhere seems to be corrupt in one way or another. LE here are corrupt enough to leak information, seems plausible that they’re corrupt enough to leak false information too.

I’m also completely disgusted with the way the media has handled this. In their minds, she was guilty the day she was arrested, simply because she’s a liar and a party girl. I’m also disgusted at the animals protesting in front of the Anthony’s home. If they care so much, why are they wasting valuable time waving their posters around vying for media time when they can be trudging through the swamps or landfill they all swear she’s in?

Hope everyone is having a great day and I look forward to reading more of your thoughts!