Tim Miller: Possible Lawsuit against Casey

[cityslick]

I think you are misunderstanding AZ's posts - she was not addressing whether or not JB's statements legally represented FCA, but rather whether or not those statements were 'evidence', and further she states "The point is that his statements in opening (or closing) argument regarding his theory of the defense are not binding upon Casey as admissions of fact." Admissions of fact (a legal term) meaning that both the plaintiff's and defendant's attorneys agree on a declaration, making it fact for the purpose of the upcoming trial. She's saying that statements - not evidence - made in the first trial aren't automatically accepted as fact by later trials.

But if FCA's attorney does object or deny the declaration that FCA knew Caylee was dead during the Request of Admissions (the process that determines agreed upon 'fact') that doesn't mean those earlier claims/statements won't be brought in and argued as part of the trial. One way or the other, it will be addressed and those statements will play a part in her answers, IMO.

No I don't think I misunderstood anything. The inference made in this thread is the statement/evidence/whatever you want to call it about the drowning theory made by JB was thus in turn made by KC and can then be used as a basis by which TM will use to prove he was defrauded. That is not the case. AZ once again clarified in the lawyer thread.

TM's lawsuit and ZG's lawsuit can both go forward now, no problem. In fact, ZG's lawsuit has been going forward for a long time. But TM will have to actually prove Casey lied to him--he can't use JB's defense theory from the criminal case as "proof."

The bolded part is what I meant when I said JB said it does not equal KC said it.

 

[LinasK]

It's our love of innocent children - three years wanting justice for a beautiful little girl who was here and then gone - kidnapped ....and now another little girl gone under mysterious circumstances....it's the same fear...

Only this one might truly have been an accidental death which was covered up, unlike Casey who wanted her child dead and made it happen...:furious:

 

[LambChop]

No I don't think I misunderstood anything. The inference made in this thread is the statement/evidence/whatever you want to call it about the drowning theory made by JB was thus in turn made by KC and can then be used as a basis by which TM will use to prove he was defrauded. That is not the case. AZ once again clarified in the lawyer thread.



The bolded part is what I meant when I said JB said it does not equal KC said it.

I think the point LinTx was making is that it does not matter what happened in criminal court, what will matter is all the stories she had floating around by herself and by members of her team. It's already been established that she lied to LE and was convicted on all four counts. The drowning is just another story she has declined to confirm nor deny. But it can and probably will be brought up in the civil trial. I mean what is she going to say that will not damage her. KC will take the path of least damage to her. At least that is what I would think her team would recommend.

In the end what will matter is if her lies were harsh enough to cause damage to ZG. Look at the damage she did to AH, JG, RK, etc. ZG and TM may not be the end of the lawsuits. Will she learn from this.....let's hope so? jmo

 

[cityslick]

I think the point LinTx was making is that it does not matter what happened in criminal court, what will matter is all the stories she had floating around by herself and by members of her team. It's already been established that she lied to LE and was convicted on all four counts. The drowning is just another story she has declined to confirm nor deny. But it can and probably will be brought up in the civil trial. I mean what is she going to say that will not damage her. KC will take the path of least damage to her. At least that is what I would think her team would recommend.

In the end what will matter is if her lies were harsh enough to cause damage to ZG. Look at the damage she did to AH, JG, RK, etc. ZG and TM may not be the end of the lawsuits. Will she learn from this.....let's hope so? jmo

What stops her from pleading the 5th again with any question that has to do with her knowledge about Caylee's disappearance/death? I'm not a lawyer but I don't know if a judge can compel her to testify about something that has something to do with her criminal trial charges that she was found NG of.

 

[charok]

What stops her from pleading the 5th again with any question that has to do with her knowledge about Caylee's disappearance/death? I'm not a lawyer but I don't know if a judge can compel her to testify about something that has something to do with her criminal trial charges that she was found NG of.

im not a "legal eagle" by any means, but i THOUGHT you could only plead the 5th only once/( in a life time? iirc and i could certianly be wrong) but yet, she pleads the 5th in the depos,( first hearing or what have you w/ ZFG and in this most recent one w/ ZFG) how many more times does she get to "plead the 5th"? and im sure she somehow will manage to "plead the 5th"-AGAIN, when the tim miller suit kicks into action... ( i know, i know, even if she does have to "testify" it will more than likely be all lies - moo) and i may perhaps just answered my own question there( just let her plead 5th, because she will just probably lie if not)
ive said it again, i certianly hope tim wins, and she gets held accountable for wasting resources. yes tims job i suppose was to locate caylee, alive or dead. so in that respect, not a total waste. however, he was tied up in a "wild goose chase" with people who wanted his help their way, searching for a live caylee vs a dead one. and one of the players, fca, knew right where she was, and in what condition she left her there. wasnt there the infamous " they havent even found her clothes yet" remark? iirc. meanwhile, while all this going on, families who had a REAL need for tim's services were not able to be helped...thats what irks me, families who needed him, but had to go w/out because of him being tied into the anthony family.:twocents: and of course MOO

 

[wonders]

I think CA knew Caylee was deceased from the smell in the trunk and all the lies Casey told . She also knows exactly what led up to Casey taking Caylee away. That's why CA started making up her fabrications and that's why she reined GA in.
She may have hoped deep in her heart it wasn't true,but she would not have felt the need to cover for Casey if she believed Caylee was alive.JMO

I totally agree MissJames. She was in daily contact with OCA but not Caylee.
That 1+1 isn't hard to figure out at all.

 

[Chilly Willy]

im not a "legal eagle" by any means, but i THOUGHT you could only plead the 5th only once/( in a life time? iirc and i could certianly be wrong) but yet, she pleads the 5th in the depos,( first hearing or what have you w/ ZFG and in this most recent one w/ ZFG) how many more times does she get to "plead the 5th"? and im sure she somehow will manage to "plead the 5th"-AGAIN, when the tim miller suit kicks into action... ( i know, i know, even if she does have to "testify" it will more than likely be all lies - moo) and i may perhaps just answered my own question there( just let her plead 5th, because she will just probably lie if not)
ive said it again, i certianly hope tim wins, and she gets held accountable for wasting resources. yes tims job i suppose was to locate caylee, alive or dead. so in that respect, not a total waste. however, he was tied up in a "wild goose chase" with people who wanted his help their way, searching for a live caylee vs a dead one. and one of the players, fca, knew right where she was, and in what condition she left her there. wasnt there the infamous " they havent even found her clothes yet" remark? iirc. meanwhile, while all this going on, families who had a REAL need for tim's services were not able to be helped...thats what irks me, families who needed him, but had to go w/out because of him being tied into the anthony family.:twocents: and of course MOO

Tim made the decision to concentrate on the Anthony case while turning down those other families. Casey can't be blamed for Tim's decision.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

I wish once LE seized the car they would have taken something from the car to track
Caylee. That was in the first 2 days. I would imagine LE thinks alive and dead right off the bat, especially when you have a bunch of liars giving out information.
Oh, if only they could go backwards. I still wonder why CA isn't suspect for some of the lies. KC pretty much fed off her mother for ideas from the start. What KC didn't think of CA did.

Maybe they should have let her out of jail so she could "search" for Caylee...oh wait, Baez wanted a stipulation of no law enforcement ...totally not suspicious!!

 

[Chilly Willy]

I wish once LE seized the car they would have taken something from the car to track
Caylee. That was in the first 2 days. I would imagine LE thinks alive and dead right off the bat, especially when you have a bunch of liars giving out information.
Oh, if only they could go backwards. I still wonder why CA isn't suspect for some of the lies. KC pretty much fed off her mother for ideas from the start. What KC didn't think of CA did.

It wasn't actually in the first 2 days, it was a month and 2 days after Caylee disappeared. I think it's very unlikely that even the best tracking dog could follow the trail of a person who was taken away in a car more than a month after it happened.

 

[LinTX]

No I don't think I misunderstood anything. The inference made in this thread is the statement/evidence/whatever you want to call it about the drowning theory made by JB was thus in turn made by KC and can then be used as a basis by which TM will use to prove he was defrauded. That is not the case. AZ once again clarified in the lawyer thread.

Originally Posted by AZlawyer
TM's lawsuit and ZG's lawsuit can both go forward now, no problem. In fact, ZG's lawsuit has been going forward for a long time. But TM will have to actually prove Casey lied to him--he can't use JB's defense theory from the criminal case as "proof."

The bolded part is what I meant when I said JB said it does not equal KC said it.

Two separate issues, one having to do with the process of determining fact for trial purposes, and the issue you addressed having to do with whether or not JB was her voice. He was, legally, according to the state statutes and the oath he took as a lawyer. I'm seriously not trying to split hairs here, there are several separate and distinct legal issues raised in this discussion, and from reading your post I had the impression you were combining two of them into one answer. I replied to what you posted, apparently not what you meant.

Interesting to me is the more recent post by Katprint regarding Judicial Estoppel, so it appears FCA may be in fact limited to what her defense claims were in the first trial. I found the following statement from a Florida Supreme Court decision that sounds like Florida does accept and enforce it (BBM):

“Judicial estoppel is an equitable doctrine that is used to prevent litigants from taking totally inconsistent positions in separate judicial, including quasi-judicial, proceedings.” Smith v.Avatar Properties, Inc., 714 So. 2d 1103, 1107 (Fla. 5th DCA 1998). The doctrine prevents parties from “making a mockery of justice by inconsistent pleadings,"American Nat’l Bank v. Federal Deposit Ins. Corp., 710 F.2d 1528, 1536 (11thCir. 1983), and "playing fast and loose with the courts." Russell v. Rolfs, 893
F.2d 1033, 1037 (9th Cir. 1990).

Between this and the defense's ability during discovery to establish what is 'fact' regarding what she knew when TM was in her house, I will be surprised if they try to argue this point. But then I've been surprised quite a few times during anything having to do with FCA and her lawyers.

 

[LambChop]

Tim made the decision to concentrate on the Anthony case while turning down those other families. Casey can't be blamed for Tim's decision.

No, she can't. But I expect most people would think she was responsible for lying to him. If defense brings up the "money would have just gone to other families" as they did the other day at the hearing I'm sure most people would find it quite offensive on KC's behalf to compare other's losses to her's. jmo

 

[LambChop]

It wasn't actually in the first 2 days, it was a month and 2 days after Caylee disappeared. I think it's very unlikely that even the best tracking dog could follow the trail of a person who was taken away in a car more than a month after it happened.

Once the dog had the scent, I would think Caylee being right down the street, that what scent might be in the air might alert the dogs. Her blanket and shorts that were found with her remains would still have a scent on them. But we will never know because CA would not give TM anything of Caylee's. jmo

 

[Chilly Willy]

Once the dog had the scent, I would think Caylee being right down the street, that what scent might be in the air might alert the dogs. Her blanket and shorts that were found with her remains would still have a scent on them. But we will never know because CA would not give TM anything of Caylee's. jmo

The scent of decomposition would have been in the air. Why didn't the police dogs that found decomp in the A's yard follow the scent down the street? I think that would have been much more likely than for tracking dogs to follow the trail of Caylee's 'live' scent over a month later, especially since she was moved in a car.

 

[LambChop]

The scent of decomposition would have been in the air. Why didn't the police dogs that found decomp in the A's yard follow the scent down the street? I think that would have been much more likely than for tracking dogs to follow the trail of Caylee's 'live' scent over a month later, especially since she was moved in a car.

There's a difference between cadaver dogs and tracking dogs. Some dogs are able to track even if you left by car. Bloodhounds are particularly sensitive when it comes to tracking. My guess is once the search of the yard was completed they put the dogs in the vehicles. I'm not an expert on the dogs but I know if Tim asked for something of Caylee's to track they were considering using a tracking dog and starting from the house. jmo

 

[Chilly Willy]

There's a difference between cadaver dogs and tracking dogs. Some dogs are able to track even if you left by car. Bloodhounds are particularly sensitive when it comes to tracking. My guess is once the search of the yard was completed they put the dogs in the vehicles. I'm not an expert on the dogs but I know if Tim asked for something of Caylee's to track they were considering using a tracking dog and starting from the house. jmo

I would think that Tim would have started from the Sawgrass apartments since that's where Cayllee was last known to have been - unless he didn't believe Casey right from the start in which case his suit is groundless.

 

[luvmygarden]

It wasn't actually in the first 2 days, it was a month and 2 days after Caylee disappeared. I think it's very unlikely that even the best tracking dog could follow the trail of a person who was taken away in a car more than a month after it happened.

Well I am thinking then the 2nd day after the 911 call. Of course the dogs would have tracked decomposition which was just down the street.
After the fact we know they would never have found a live Caylee with a piece of clothing or a stuffed animal. They did have the decomp smell to work with. I know it is hard for LE to do their job when the family is accusing
them of jumping to conclusions on T.V. but I bet many now will just ignore families like this and search in the direction they feel the info leads them and in this situation decomp was the lead of the day.
Poor Caylee what a family she was stuck with.

 

[concentric]

If you go back to the beginning threads, we were discussing where Caylee might be. I logically based my guesses on "the comfort zone" of the offender--the areas visited as a child, for example. It only made sense that when "she is close by" is stated, you look close by.

 

[LambChop]

Well I am thinking then the 2nd day after the 911 call. Of course the dogs would have tracked decomposition which was just down the street.
After the fact we know they would never have found a live Caylee with a piece of clothing or a stuffed animal. They did have the decomp smell to work with. I know it is hard for LE to do their job when the family is accusing
them of jumping to conclusions on T.V. but I bet many now will just ignore families like this and search in the direction they feel the info leads them and in this situation decomp was the lead of the day.
Poor Caylee what a family she was stuck with.

Caylee's blanket, shorts and t-shirt were probably still pretty much intact at the time so a tracking dog would have the scent to go by. TM asked for the clothing because he wanted to use a tracking dog. By the time TM came on the scene KC had already changed her story to JBP so I think TM would have started where GA said he last saw her, which was getting into the car. Sawgrass was already established by LE to be a waste of time.

We will never know whether or not the dogs would have been able to find Caylee because her grandmother refused to give TM a pair of shoes, a t-shirt she'd outgrown or a toy Caylee had in bed with her. Nothing. And her beloved grandmother told TM he could have nothing in no uncertain terms.

As I said I don't think TM would have asked CA for an item unless he felt it was worth a try. A least SOMEONE was willing to try everything available to attempt to find Caylee. jmo

 

[luvmygarden]

Caylee's blanket, shorts and t-shirt were probably still pretty much intact at the time so a tracking dog would have the scent to go by. TM asked for the clothing because he wanted to use a tracking dog. By the time TM came on the scene KC had already changed her story to JBP so I think TM would have started where GA said he last saw her, which was getting into the car. Sawgrass was already established by LE to be a waste of time.

We will never know whether or not the dogs would have been able to find Caylee because her grandmother refused to give TM a pair of shoes, a t-shirt she'd outgrown or a toy Caylee had in bed with her. Nothing. And her beloved grandmother told TM he could have nothing in no uncertain terms.

As I said I don't think TM would have asked CA for an item unless he felt it was worth a try. A least SOMEONE was willing to try everything available to attempt to find Caylee. jmo

Amen Well said. Thank You.

 

[LambChop]

Amen Well said. Thank You.

No. Thank you. You brought up a good point. lol