Trial Discussion Thread #3 - 14.03.08-09, Weekend

[JuneBug67]

Reeva was still alive...

when Oscar told Mr. Baba that "everything is fine."

Recall from the BBC3 doc on this matter, DT's own pathologsit Dr.Perumal stated that in his opinion after going to the crime scene that "Reeva died on the stairway."

But this was a few minutes after Oscar told Baba that 'everything is fine' as it took a few minutes for him to realize something was amiss and to drive over. Once there he could see Oscar carrying Reeva down the stairs.
Couple this with Perumal's statement. Perumal did not explain, but I presume he refers to the lack of blood after a certain point on the stairs, implying her heart was no longer beating. JMO.

So Reeva was still alive when Oscar said, "security, everything is fine." But dying alas.

To me the key thing here is that "Everything is fine" only truly becomes damning if it resulted in a material delay in initiating medical assistance. Did he call after carrying Reeva down the stairs when there were people there? Before on his own? What was the gap between his statement to Baba and the call? And on which side? I don't know.

 

[Peliman]

That's not clear yet. The first set of sounds have to be eliminated as the fatal shots, and that has not been done yet I don't think.

If the first rounds of shots were the fatal shots she would not have been heard screaming in the second round of shots. I have trouble getting over her screaming help before any of this took place.

 

[Carol70]

I'm wondering if this is a typical fear in Pretoria. I can't remember the last time I woke up in the night worried about a noise. That there were incidents plural over their short relationship may reflect the reality of life for the wealthy in parts of South Africa, or it may indicate that Oscar was perhaps somewhat pathologically vigilant. If the latter, that could be spun to work for him in arguing against premeditated murder.

Yes, it is a typical fear. And not just for the wealthy, but for all South Africans. We have 4 dogs, they all sleep locked in our home at night but if they bark, no matter how annoying, someone gets up to check. Rather safe than sorry. And I can walk confidently through my house with a blind fold on.

 

[JuneBug67]

It has come to be my opinion that the noises all the witnesses heard at 3.17 was indeed the bat. The state has not even hinted at the possibility that he used the bat BEFORE firing the shots. He called netcare for help, it's on record at 3.20. It would seemingly be impossible to shoot her, bat the door down and all the details inbetween in 3 minutes. It does not seem logical nor realistic to me in the least.

Three minutes can be a long time. We are only talking about walking metres, putting on prosthetics, wacking a door with a nearby bat, ultimately retrieving a key and then opening the door. He also could have called Netcare before the door was open, in theory. Once the panel was out he may have been able to see that Reeva was gravely wounded. People busy calling about the shots could have missed bat sounds that came quickly after.

 

[shane13]

To me the key thing here is that "Everything is fine" only truly becomes damning if it resulted in a material delay in initiating medical assistance. Did he call after carrying Reeva down the stairs when there were people there? Before on his own? What was the gap between his statement to Baba and the call? And on which side? I don't know.

Actually I respectfully disagree completely. Medically, given the nature of the wounds, she was likely irretrievable--or so--from death or a permanent vegetative state.

The real significance of those words IMO are to his credibility, his involvement and possible plans if not discoverd and other things.

If he had "innocently" believed he had an intruder in his house, and shot to "protect himself and Reeva" he would have told Mr. Baba what had happened.

 

[Carol70]

I have already had the feeling that Oscar was a deeply paranoid and fearful man. I don't find it implausible that he thought there was an intruder in his home, however ridiculous the notion, and got scared, especially at realizing there really was a person in the bathroom. In his mind it was an intruder.

What I don't find plausible is that Reeva never screamed, alerting Oscar to stop, as she was being shot at. It's possible the head shot was first and she died instantly. However, my rather non-expert opinion tells me she must have been up at the time the other bullets hit her because they are all down her right side, her hip, her elbow and due to the trajectory of the bullets in the door. But I'm still waiting for the ballistics and medical experts to testify. A lot of trial to go. I could very well be wrong.

And I find it completely plausible that she didn't, she is in the loo, she hears OP screaming that there is an intruder, she doesn't KNOW he thinks it's her, she doesn't know what's happening on the other side of the door...she is maybe confused and she remains silent, maybe listening, trying to hear what's going on..certainly afraid!!!

That being said, does anyone know how it is possible to know the fatal head wound was the last bullet or the first?? It that possible, if anyone has any medical or forensic knowledge about this

 

[JuneBug67]

If the first rounds of shots were the fatal shots she would not have been heard screaming in the second round of shots. I have trouble getting over her screaming help before any of this took place.

It is disputed by the defense that it was her screaming. They will say that it was Oscar in a panic.

 

[sorrell skye]

And I find it completely plausible that she didn't, she is in the loo, she hears OP screaming that there is an intruder, she doesn't KNOW he thinks it's her, she doesn't know what's happening on the other side of the door...she is maybe confused and she remains silent, maybe listening, trying to hear what's going on..certainly afraid!!!

That being said, does anyone know how it is possible to know the fatal head wound was the last bullet or the first?? It that possible, if anyone has any medical or forensic knowledge about this

The ME's report will explain which gunshot was the shot to the head.

Once the brain ceases to function from a fatal wound, all life processes stop: heartbeat, blood circulation, respiration, etc.

When the State says the last gunshot was the head wound, I believe them.

 

[MeeBee]

And I find it completely plausible that she didn't, she is in the loo, she hears OP screaming that there is an intruder, she doesn't KNOW he thinks it's her, she doesn't know what's happening on the other side of the door...she is maybe confused and she remains silent, maybe listening, trying to hear what's going on..certainly afraid!!!

That being said, does anyone know how it is possible to know the fatal head wound was the last bullet or the first?? It that possible, if anyone has any medical or forensic knowledge about this

I mean after she was hit with the first bullet. That's gotta be pretty painful. I find it very hard to believe she did not scream.

I think they will be able to tell, like I said, based on the trajectory of the bullets and the trajectory of the bullets put into her body. How can the bullet to her head have been first if she was standing when the other bullets hit her?

 

[Carol70]

Ah but then you countered your own point, Carol.
If age of consent is 16, Sam did not need her parents approval to "be" with OP.

I cannot wait to hear the testimony of your good friend, Mark Batchelor [j/k]

How are your electric generators doing in that failed country of yours? [j/k]

No she didn't but I certainly wouldn't feel that comfortable with my 17 year old sleeping over at a grown mans house, no matter how famous he is. but maybe that's just me!!

Hahaha at MB, I can't wait too.

Looks like restrictions have been lifted, Eskom took a hellava beating from government so they miraculously found coal. Ain't election time wonderful hehe. So thankfully have packed the candles away for now.

 

[Peliman]

It is disputed by the defense that it was her screaming. They will say that it was Oscar in a panic.

Yes they can say that but would it be believed? My feeling is the witnesses are credible. I would also have to ask why OP didn't know it was her and stop firing the first time she said screamed help.

Looking at from a reasonable mans point of view I can't fathom he didn't know.

 

[Carol70]

I guess that would have been a couple of minutes after he broke the door down. I missed that in the trial

Minor, it hasn't been mentioned in the trial yet, it came about in the bail application

 

[JuneBug67]

Actually I respectfully disagree completely. Medically, given the nature of the wounds, she was likely irretrievable--or so--from death or a permanent vegetative state.

The real significance of those words IMO are to his credibility, his involvement and possible plans if not discoverd and other things.

If he had "innocently" believed he had an intruder in his house, and shot to "protect himself and Reeva" he would have told Mr. Baba what had happened.

But he would not have been able to make that medical judgement, and the only responsible and ethical and NORMAL thing to do in a situation like this is try to get medical assistance. If that call to Netcare had happened or was imminent, I just don't attach much significance to a celebrity with a track record of going out of his way to avoid negative attention attempting to close ranks. If he called Netcare he implicitly wasn't avoiding detection. Now even if this is all true it is still illogical as any ambulance arriving at a gated estate will raise the attention of security. But just trying to put myself in his head and think as he may have thought in the moment.

 

[sorrell skye]

Actually I respectfully disagree completely. Medically, given the nature of the wounds, she was likely irretrievable--or so--from death or a permanent vegetative state.

The real significance of those words IMO are to his credibility, his involvement and possible plans if not discoverd and other things.

If he had "innocently" believed he had an intruder in his house, and shot to "protect himself and Reeva" he would have told Mr. Baba what had happened.

I agree, Shane.

I don't think there is any way OP can justify his words "Everything is fine".

I think it's possible OP was in cover up mode when Baba phoned and prior to Dr. Stipp arriving.

Dr. Stipp testified that he asked Stander if an ambulance had been called. He said Stander told him "no". Upon hearing that information, Dr. Stipp is the one who asked for the paramedics to be called.

Everything was anything but "fine" when OP received the phone call from Baba.

 

[JuneBug67]

Yes they can say that but would it be believed? My feeling is the witnesses are credible. I would also have to ask why OP didn't know it was her and stop firing the first time she said screamed help.

Looking at from a reasonable mans point of view I can't fathom he didn't know.

Well again, it will likely be put forth by the defence that Reeva was killed by the first shot and rendered unable to scream. A hothead in the dark with a gun can wreak tremendous destruction in a very short amount of time.

 

[Carol70]

??
The everything is fine statement occurred several minutes before the alleged netcare call.

Several minutes before? How is that possible if everyone heard the "gunshots" at 3.17??

 

[MeeBee]

Did he actually call? I thought it was others that called for him? What is the evidence that he made that call? Maybe I missed it.

 

[sorrell skye]

Well again, it will likely be put forth by the defence that Reeva was killed by the first shot and rendered unable to scream. A hothead in the dark with a gun can wreak tremendous destruction in a very short amount of time.

The defense can put forth any theory they wish, but if the gunshot to the head was the final wound, the defense will look like fools if they insist it was the first.

The ME's report will provide a wealth of information.

The State has repeatedly said the gunshot to the head was the last gunshot wound. I don't believe they would make this claim if they couldn't back it up with medical evidence.

 

[Peliman]

Well again, it will likely be put forth by the defence that Reeva was killed by the first shot and rendered unable to scream. A hothead in the dark with a gun can wreak tremendous destruction in a very short amount of time.

Hothead maybe one of the adjectives I'd use to describe OP too. He had so much going for him and his life is now changed forever, very unfortunate.

 

[MeeBee]

Hothead maybe one of the adjectives I'd use to describe OP too. He had so much going for him and his life is now changed forever, very unfortunate.

I was a great admirer of his. I supported his being allowed to run in the Olympics and had tears in my eyes watching him run for the first time in 2012. I couldn't believe it when I first heard the news not a year later that he'd killed someone. It's quite a tragedy, accident or not. She seemed like a lovely and intelligent woman. Should never have happened.