Trial Discussion Thread #3 - 14.03.08-09, Weekend

[JuneBug67]

The defense can put forth any theory they wish, but if the gunshot to the head was the final wound, the defense will look like fools if they insist it was the first.

The ME's report will provide a wealth of information.

The State has repeatedly said the gunshot to the head was the last gunshot wound. I don't believe they would make this claim if they couldn't back it up with medical evidence.

I wonder if they will rely on the same report or have separate experts with conflicting assessments. I think the defense has similarly claimed their theory.

 

[JuneBug67]

Did he actually call? I thought it was others that called for him? What is the evidence that he made that call? Maybe I missed it.

I think we are all trying to figure that out. Carol70 at least recalls it from the bail application.

 

[shane13]

I agree, Shane.

I don't think there is any way OP can justify his words "Everything is fine".

I think it's possible OP was in cover up mode when Baba phoned and prior to Dr. Stipp arriving.

Dr. Stipp testified that he asked Stander if an ambulance had been called. He said Stander told him "no". Upon hearing that information, Dr. Stipp is the one who asked for the paramedics to be called.

Everything was anything but "fine" when OP received the phone call from Baba.

BBM

"Cover-up mode"--well put possibly.
I wonder what you would call his previous mode?

2nd bold: That is shocking and damning. I am wondering about Mr Stander. Why didn't he call for an ambulance? if Oscar was doing CPR (or pretending to do it?), what was stopping Stander from calling?

 

[Really?]

"Just hours before Oscar Pistorius shot his model girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp, the Blade Runner was surfing internet *advertiser censored* sites on his mobile phone."

"More leaked evidence states that Steenkamp took her cell phones with her into the toilet with her and that she was clothed; standing upright and facing the door at the time she was shot."

http://www.graziadaily.co.za/hot-stories/oscar-pistorius-state-evidence-leaked/

BBM:
Thanks for that.....this is what I thought may have happened......oh boy, a fight indeed must have happened.....mooooooo:moo:

 

[sorrell skye]

From yesterday's testimony, Baba said Mr Stander told him to make sure there had been no cars parked at OP's house.

I don't know what to make of this.

 

[shane13]

From yesterday's testimony, Baba said Mr Stander told him to make sure there had been no cars parked at OP's house.

I don't know what to make of this.

This may be innocent--depends when it was said.
If said after police and ambulance were called, it might merely be to make sure pull in as close to the house etc.

 

[JuneBug67]

From yesterday's testimony, Baba said Mr Stander told him to make sure there had been no cars parked at OP's house.

I don't know what to make of this.

Could it have been a matter of logistics to make sure paramedics could get in easily with their vehicle and equipment etc.?

 

[whiterum]

Sure he could refute that. According to her testimony, he awoke her everytime he heard a noise. She was in a dead sleep and I think safe to assume that due to numerous times, she figured he woke her up every time. Sure. Maybe this one time, he didn't. Perhaps we can agree on 'generally' he awoke her.

This also gives insight into his procedure on similar occasions in relation to what he claims resulted in him killing RS that night. It appears he reacted with concern for the safety of a sleeping partner and alerted her when he suspected an imminent danger close by such as a noise from the bathroom window.

 

[JuneBug67]

If he said "Everything is fine" and had begun to carry Reeva down the stairs without initiating medical assistance I think that there is no real good explanation for that other than possibly shock. If he called Netcare before going down the stairs with her I would be inclined to 'forgive' his statements to Baba.

 

[sorrell skye]

This may be innocent--depends when it was said.
If said after police and ambulance were called, it might merely be to make sure pull in as close to the house etc.

Could it have been a matter of logistics to make sure paramedics could get in easily with their vehicle and equipment etc.?

I think you're both correct.

I just went back and looked at yesterday's posts, and it appears that Stander made this request near to the same time he instructed Baba to call police and paramedics.

 

[Lyra500]

If he said "Everything is fine" and had begun to carry Reeva down the stairs without initiating medical assistance I think that there is no real good explanation for that other than possibly shock. If he called Netcare before going down the stairs with her I would be inclined to 'forgive' his statements to Baba.

I cannot believe that any reputable medical facility would tell a caller to just stick a person with three gunshot wounds in the car and bring them to hospital themselves. I know that someone has suggested that ambulances take a while and therefore people make their own way to hospital if they can, but surely the nature and severity of the injury has to be taken into account. This leads me to two possible scenarios:

1. Oscar never called Netcare and this will come out in due course. Given the leakiness surrounding the facts of this case i do not recall ever seeing confirmation from Netcare that they received this call or that they gave OP the advice he says they did.
2. Oscar did call Netcare but misled them about the nature of Reeva's injuries thus causing them to give inappropriate advice and to fail to dispatch an ambulance and paramedics to the house.

 

[Estelle]

Pistorius in turmoil:

How Blade Runner's body language reveals the way that trial is taking its toll

Body language expert Dr Denise Bjorkman analyses his every move in court

Believes his teary breakdowns are 'staged to hide feelings of sickening guilt'

'Resting hands on head is involuntary move to reject unwanted information'

'Placing hands on genitalia region an indicator of his leaked powerlessness'

Believes choice of 'funereal' black suit is attempt to demonstrate grieving

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-reveals-trial-taking-toll.html#ixzz2vMNvOvbf
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[Estelle]

I cannot believe that any reputable medical facility would tell a caller to just stick a person with three gunshot wounds in the car and bring them to hospital themselves. I know that someone has suggested that ambulances take a while and therefore people make their own way to hospital if they can, but surely the nature and severity of the injury has to be taken into account. This leads me to two possible scenarios:

1. Oscar never called Netcare and this will come out in due course. Given the leakiness surrounding the facts of this case i do not recall ever seeing confirmation from Netcare that they received this call or that they gave OP the advice he says they did.
2. Oscar did call Netcare but misled them about the nature of Reeva's injuries thus causing them to give inappropriate advice and to fail to dispatch an ambulance and paramedics to the house.

I strongly agree with you. In fact, I have often thought that OP (considering that his car engine was running), was going to make a getaway with the body and make sure it could never be found pretending he was taking her to the hospital.

 

[lisasalinger]

Something that strikes me as odd... when Dr. Stipp was on the stand testifying about arriving at the house and examining Reeva, why did Nel not ask her what Reeva was wearing at the time?

We all seem to be waiting anxiously to hear that information. There has been so much reported about it in the media, why not ask the good doctor being that he was one of the first people to see her at the scene?

 

[lisasalinger]

I strongly agree with you. In fact, I have often thought that OP (considering that his car engine was running), was going to make a getaway with the body and make sure it could never be found.

BBM

Really?? Was this in today's testimony? I'm about half a day behind right now.

 

[sorrell skye]

I would like to give OP the benefit of the doubt.

At times, I'm able to envision his version of the events of February 13/14 2013, and I think, yes, that's plausible, that could have happened.

But then, I'm faced with:

Witnesses testimony about hearing a woman's blood curdling screams (Ms. Burger & Mr. Johnson)

A woman's screams intermingled with a man's voice (Dr. Stipp)

A witness who heard a loud argument an hour before the gunshots (Estelle van der Merwe)

Testimony about how he lied to avoid criminal prosecution for illegal discharge of a firearm in a public place (Kevin Lerena)

Testimony about his screaming rages (Samantha T)

Testimony about him threatening a stranger with his gun (Samantha T)

Telling security guard Pieter Baba "Everything is fine" after he shot and killed Reeva

These are the things thus far that prevent me from being able to give OP the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Estelle]

BBM

"Cover-up mode"--well put possibly.
I wonder what you would call his previous mode?

2nd bold: That is shocking and damning. I am wondering about Mr Stander. Why didn't he call for an ambulance? if Oscar was doing CPR (or pretending to do it?), what was stopping Stander from calling?

My guess is that OP must have prevented Stander from doing this for some reason.

 

[lisasalinger]

Shipp

He is the closest of the witnesses and had a direct line to Oscar's house via his open balcony.

1. He heard 3 "shots" and got up and went to balcony to see where it was coming from

2. On balcony, he heard a woman "screaming or yelling" 2 or 3 times

3. At 3:17 (verified by phone records) he heard "2 or 3" additional "shots"

4. At 3:27, he called security again

5. After his 3:27 call to security, he THEN heard Oscar yell "help, help, help"

6. At 3:28 he phoned Stander from Oscar's house.

Although his testimony included the an additional claim to have heard a man's screams intermingled with a woman's screams between the first and second set of bangs, this is no in either of his statements to police given on 2-15-13 and 3-18-13

I consider Shipp's testimony to be the most reliable because he is close by and would have had the best opportunity to hear what happened. He also gave a written statement on 2-15-13, before the bail hearing and before an opportunity to be influenced by media or other witness accounts, etc

Respectfully snipped for space.

I think there may be something funky about the timeline that I bolded in red. I know Roux and Stipp went around & around about these calls today so it seems that somebody is confused. Stipp seemed surprised by the 3:27am time too. I wonder if somebody is mixing up the calls. Not saying it's intentional, just somehow mixed up.

If you go back and listen to today's testimony, at 3:28am Mr. Stander calls Netcare and puts Dr. Stipp on the phone to describe Reeva's injuries to dispatch. Prior to this happening, Dr. Stipp was inside the house examining Reeva. Surely that must have taken at least a few minutes. So how can it be that Stipp reaches security at 3:27am from his house, they come to his house & speak with him on his balcony, he then goes to Oscar's house, examines Reeva and ONE MINUTE later is outside with Stander on the phone to Netcare? That's physically impossible.

I need to go back and listen again, this is bugging me.

 

[lisasalinger]

10 minutes

Sorry, Minor.. I know it seems like we're always ganging up on you. I assure you that's not my intention. Just curious how do you get the 10 minutes in between the two rounds of bangs?

Stipp is awoken out of bed and within moments is out on his balcony. He hears approximately 3 screams, sees the neighbors lights & Oscar's bathroom light, goes right back inside to get his phone and call security. As he's dialing, the next set of bangs goes off.

I don't see how that can be 10 minutes. Seems it would be more like 1 or 2 at the most. He stated on the stand that this all happened very rapidly.

 

[Estelle]

BBM:
Thanks for that.....this is what I thought may have happened......oh boy, a fight indeed must have happened.....mooooooo:moo:

In today's society, many people have a "so what? approach about watching *advertiser censored*. But it can become addictive and while I guess soft *advertiser censored* can be viewed as "educational" at best, some people become more and more addicted to it and end up watching X-rated or violent *advertiser censored* which leads to fantasies and some of them are then acted out.

The Blade Runner is said to have viewed X-rated material on his mobile phone, which was recovered at his home in Pretoria.

A court document is purported to show that he had looked at *advertiser censored* and used car websites ‘in the hours before’ he shot Steenkamp, according to reports in the South African media.

The papers allegedly say: “The accused’s website activities from the time they were at home is in direct contrast to that of a loving couple spending time together.”

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...ertiser censored*-hours-3177855#ixzz2vMbtfOyI

It has been reported that after OP came home at 6.10pm that night, he began watching *advertiser censored* on and off between also watching used car websites and talking to his mates on the phone for about an hour altogether.

If I could put myself in Reeva's shoes, I would have felt neglected and ignored by OP if I had visited him expecting to have a romantic evening.

Even if it was soft *advertiser censored*, it is difficult for two people to watch anything together on a mobile phone so I often wonder what Reeva was doing while OP was doing these things. Cooking the meal? Washing up? Yoga?

There is some evidence because of her car door being open that she may have tried to go home and OP could have prevented her. She may have made that SMS message to Gina Myers to say she was not coming home as OP forced her to do it.

Why was the bedroom door locked? Had OP theatened her at gunpoint to return to the house and go to the bedroom?

Was this what caused their argument? Or did Reeva find out something that she did not approve of while OP was otherwise engaged?

IN MY OPINION ONLY