TX - Margaret Schlosser, 10 mos, arms cut off, dies, Plano, 22 Nov 2004 *Insanity*

[bluehawaii25]

I, too, live in Plano and am horrified to hear about this happening to this baby. How any mother could do this to her child is "beyond me". Listening to her talk to the 911 dispatcher is unbelievable. She seems to be void of any emotion. Thank goodness her other children were in school and not there to witness the event or perhaps she might have done something to them also.

 

[txsvicki]

I wonder if the crazy urge to hurt or get rid of her newborn was why this woman was running down the street ten months ago. No one in their right mind would do this and also they said that there was a hymn playing in the background so there must be a religious connection just like the last 2 women. Maybe women in Texas aren't getting the type help that they need when faced with postpartum depression, which I think ought to be updated to postpartum psychosis. When I was in nursing school 10 years ago, one of my instructors told us to closely watch any women who had given birth. One of her friends, who was a normal person the rest of time, put her newborn in the dumpster just out of the blue and when asked where the baby was "oh, I got rid of it". Fortunately the baby was fine, and the mother got okay again.

 

[IdahoMom]

Maybe women in Texas aren't getting the type help that they need when faced with postpartum depression, which I think ought to be updated to postpartum psychosis.

http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSJ%2FMGArticle%2FWSJ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031779324100&path=!nationworld&s=1037645509161

~snip~
When a mother admitted killing her baby daughter by cutting off the child's arms this week, she joined a list of Texas women with histories of mental illness who have killed their children.

The state has had at least four similar cases in recent years. Andrea Yates drowned her five children in the Houston family's bathtub in 2001. Deanna Laney bashed her three sons' skulls with stones last year, killing two and maiming a toddler. She said that God told her to do it.

A mother from suburban Dallas drowned her daughters last fall, and a woman in Brownsville is accused of helping her common-law husband behead her three children.

In all the cases, the women had some sort of mental illness in their past.

~snip~

FYI- the poor baby's name was Margaret. :angel:

 

[Pepper]

This is horrible. She should be required to have permanent sterilization.

Why, oh why did she say God told her to do it? Why do all of these nutcases who kill their children blame it on the voice of God? Why not blame it on the Devil?

It begs a bigger question to me. What is it about some Christian denominations, primarily fundamentalist, who believe every word in their King James version of the Bible was written by the hand of God through man, have such a negative influence on some of their members?

 

[kgeaux]

This is horrible. She should be required to have permanent sterilization.

Why, oh why did she say God told her to do it? Why do all of these nutcases who kill their children blame it on the voice of God? Why not blame it on the Devil?

It begs a bigger question to me. What is it about some Christian denominations, primarily fundamentalist, who believe every word in their King James version of the Bible was written by the hand of God through man, have such a negative influence on some of their members?

It's strange, but it's not just fundamentalists. I know that the "details" are going to differ, but here goes: My nephew, when he was a teenager, suddenly began to hear voices. He immediately identified the voice as God. God would warn him about people who were out to get him, told him he was "special, indeed was CHOSEN" to be able to hear the voice of God, not to tell anyone else what he was hearing, etc. Jeremy did purchase and began to read a bible at this time, because "God" told him to. He had an AMAZING talent for memorizing really large sections of scripture. Not until Jeremy heard the voice tell him to break into his neighbor's house did any of us suspect---I mean, we knew he was a little weird, but had no idea about the depth of the problem. He was diagnoised as being schizophrenic, probably spelled that wrong, but you get it! Jeremy's mom and dad were not practicing christians at any church, much less a fundamentalist one. Yet Jeremy immediately identified the voice as God. This turns out to be a COMMON delusion in mental illness, and a very, very dangerous one. Who wants to disobey God? We found all this out after the fact of course. My nephew is doing well now. But we live in fear that he will quit taking his meds---that's part of the delusion, too. Apparently, he will sometimes begin to believe that the meds are part of a conspiracy to keep him from hearing God.....mental illness is very complicated.

I hate it when I hear of someone carrrying out such a horrendous act of cruelty and blaming it on God. But I now understand that it is part of the mental illness, not necessarily due to the beliefs of a church or religion....hope I've explained myself well enough to get my point across.

 

[Pandora]

I was raised in an independent fundamentalist baptist church and even attended its school for three years. One problem was that the church/pastor did not believe in any mental problems. Those with any psychological problems were simply told that they did not have enough faith and they needed to read their Bibles more.
I could go on for hours about the damage this church did. Believe it or not, it is still in existance, as is the school. It's one of the largest churches in my hometown, and it is the largest private school there.
It has been MY EXPERIENCE that many fundamentalist churches react this way to mental disorders.

 

[txsvicki]

It's strange, but it's not just fundamentalists. I know that the "details" are going to differ, but here goes: My nephew, when he was a teenager, suddenly began to hear voices. He immediately identified the voice as God. God would warn him about people who were out to get him, told him he was "special, indeed was CHOSEN" to be able to hear the voice of God, not to tell anyone else what he was hearing, etc. Jeremy did purchase and began to read a bible at this time, because "God" told him to. He had an AMAZING talent for memorizing really large sections of scripture. Not until Jeremy heard the voice tell him to break into his neighbor's house did any of us suspect---I mean, we knew he was a little weird, but had no idea about the depth of the problem. He was diagnoised as being schizophrenic, probably spelled that wrong, but you get it! Jeremy's mom and dad were not practicing christians at any church, much less a fundamentalist one. Yet Jeremy immediately identified the voice as God. This turns out to be a COMMON delusion in mental illness, and a very, very dangerous one. Who wants to disobey God? We found all this out after the fact of course. My nephew is doing well now. But we live in fear that he will quit taking his meds---that's part of the delusion, too. Apparently, he will sometimes begin to believe that the meds are part of a conspiracy to keep him from hearing God.....mental illness is very complicated.

I hate it when I hear of someone carrrying out such a horrendous act of cruelty and blaming it on God. But I now understand that it is part of the mental illness, not necessarily due to the beliefs of a church or religion....hope I've explained myself well enough to get my point across.

I agree. I don't think that religion can cause a person to go nuts, but if that person who goes nuts is very religious, then maybe the mental illness plays out in a religous way. I think Texas is a very Bible believing state and big state. The main religions seems to be pentecostal, baptist, and church of christ. At least around my area of Texas. The main church I have ever attended was a Fundamentalist Baptist and I also believe that every word in the Bible was inspired by God, but only the King James Version. Believing that could help most people realize that any voices or other beliefs are false and not approved of by God but they could be ashamed to ask for help. It's not just people thinking God tells them to do things. Some people think it's the devil, think the government is after them, think themselves to be spies, and think their friends and relatives are trying to kill them, etc. It's not noticable for awhile in some people because they are so paranoid that they are keeping it inside and not talking about it because they think everyone is against them.

 

[AuntieKaren]

Plano baby dies after arms cut off

02:42 PM CST on Monday, November 22, 2004


By JENNIFER EMILY / The Dallas Morning News
A 1-month-old baby died Monday after her arms were cut off, reportedly by her mother, Plano police said.

I heard that the baby was 11 months old, not 1. I listened in disbelief to the radio as Bill Handel told the story. Did anyone else hear the 911 call? She was as cool as a cucumber. Sick, sick, sick!
Karen

 

[dani]

Dr. Crowder said a law that went into effect last year requires doctors to warn parents of the effects of postpartum depression.

I suppose a Texas version of Mark Geragos will use this new law and get this poor excuse for a mother off, Scot free. Then he will turn around and bring suit against her OB/GYN when, in all reality, it was the responsibility of those who REALLY know her and see her on a daily basis to see that she got help.

She exhibited there was a problem 10 months ago. She HAD to have been showing other signs of distress since then. Someone wasn't paying attention and now an innocent baby is dead!

 

[news247]

Interesting article concerning post-partum psychosis and
insanity defense:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2921433#top
Nov. 28, 2004, 1:00AM

Law, psychiatry clash when a mother kills
Differing definitions of sanity often collide in court


DALLAS - The shocking list of Texas women accused of killing their children, brutally, by hand, grew by one last week.

Dena Schlosser, police say, cut off the arms of her infant daughter, then sat holding the knife, listening to hymns in her apartment in Plano, a Dallas suburb

The case immediately drew comparisons with those of Andrea Yates, the Houston mother who drowned her five children in a bathtub in 2001, and Deanna Laney, who killed two of her three sons in East Texas last year by bashing their skulls with rocks.

In those and at least two other headline Texas cases in recent years, the worlds of criminal justice and psychiatry collided, and with little agreement about what should happen to the women involved.


*** more @ link ***

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I saw her attorney on television last night. She's unable at this point to assist in her own defense. She apparently has had three surgeries on her brain during her childhood and should they go forward with her trial, there will be a battle of the experts on whether this could have affected her adversely or not. I fully believe that Andrea Yates was and remains insane and should be in a mental hospital for the remainder of her life. I believe that there's a very good chance that the same is true for this woman. There's a history of mental illness with her that goes back to childhood and she never should have had children in the first place. I think its a miracle that she didn't wait until the other two were home and murdered all three of them. I think its a disgusting shame that mental healthcare seems to let people slip through the cracks - for whatever reason. While I don't think that these people should be in prison, I don't think they can ever be released upon society either.

 

[Mabel]

I saw her attorney on television last night. She's unable at this point to assist in her own defense. She apparently has had three surgeries on her brain during her childhood and should they go forward with her trial, there will be a battle of the experts on whether this could have affected her adversely or not. I fully believe that Andrea Yates was and remains insane and should be in a mental hospital for the remainder of her life. I believe that there's a very good chance that the same is true for this woman. There's a history of mental illness with her that goes back to childhood and she never should have had children in the first place. I think its a miracle that she didn't wait until the other two were home and murdered all three of them. I think its a disgusting shame that mental healthcare seems to let people slip through the cracks - for whatever reason. While I don't think that these people should be in prison, I don't think they can ever be released upon society either.

I don't understand how the father's can go off to work leaving women like this in charge of the children. Certainly neither this woman or Andrea Yates appeared normal to their husbands.

 

[amandab]

I think its a disgusting shame that mental healthcare seems to let people slip through the cracks - for whatever reason. While I don't think that these people should be in prison, I don't think they can ever be released upon society either.

As a close relative of a very mentally ill woman (a mother, with 3 children), I wholeheartedly agree with you. Before knowing my sister-in-law, I had no concept of the shoddy condition this countrys mental health care system was in.

The only time my SIL isn't frighteningly unglued is when she's properly medicated, but why mentally ill people are allowed (for lack of a better word) to self-medicate is beyond me. She's been off a couple of her meds for 4 days now (she doesn't feel they're necessary right now - broken record), and things are getting tense again.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anyone whose mental capacities don't fall into the realm of everyone else's should be hidden away for all eternity...I just wish doctors and other medical professionals were better equipped to handle their needs.

On a side note, I should tell you that her children are seriously messed up now, too. Her son is 15, illiterate for the most part, a truant, and is one step away from being expelled from school. Her daughter is 20, and for the most part is relatively normal, except that her personal standards have been ground away to the point that she doesn't mind having her fiancee over to sleep on the livingroom floor - the same floor that their 5 cats regularly urinate on. I cannot bring myself to go into that house.

One bright note? My other neice is 18, and was taken by the state from their house a couple of years ago. She has since gone to a LOT of therapy, gotten proper medical care that she was previously denied, and has been adopted by her foster mother. She has changed her name and tried to move forward with her life.

Ok, here ends my threadjack.....I'm sorry.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I don't understand how the father's can go off to work leaving women like this in charge of the children. Certainly neither this woman or Andrea Yates appeared normal to their husbands.

I don't know either.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

As a close relative of a very mentally ill woman (a mother, with 3 children), I wholeheartedly agree with you. Before knowing my sister-in-law, I had no concept of the shoddy condition this countrys mental health care system was in.

The only time my SIL isn't frighteningly unglued is when she's properly medicated, but why mentally ill people are allowed (for lack of a better word) to self-medicate is beyond me. She's been off a couple of her meds for 4 days now (she doesn't feel they're necessary right now - broken record), and things are getting tense again.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anyone whose mental capacities don't fall into the realm of everyone else's should be hidden away for all eternity...I just wish doctors and other medical professionals were better equipped to handle their needs.

On a side note, I should tell you that her children are seriously messed up now, too. Her son is 15, illiterate for the most part, a truant, and is one step away from being expelled from school. Her daughter is 20, and for the most part is relatively normal, except that her personal standards have been ground away to the point that she doesn't mind having her fiancee over to sleep on the livingroom floor - the same floor that their 5 cats regularly urinate on. I cannot bring myself to go into that house.

One bright note? My other neice is 18, and was taken by the state from their house a couple of years ago. She has since gone to a LOT of therapy, gotten proper medical care that she was previously denied, and has been adopted by her foster mother. She has changed her name and tried to move forward with her life.

Ok, here ends my threadjack.....I'm sorry.

It absolutely was not a "threadjack"!!! I think its good to have a discussion about these things. This is obviously a huge problem. While we're all pretty sick and tired of infants and children being murdered by their parents, there's a huge stigma even on trying to get treatment for mental health issues. One problem I see is with the court system. The prosecutor is not allowed to tell the jury about what awaits a defendant who is deemed "not guilty by reason of insanity." Other countries have a better grip on this wording. They say the person is "guilty by reason of mental insanity." The prosecutor in the U.S. is not allowed to tell the jury that the patient will be evaluated by a number of doctors and a judge must approve any trips outside of the facility and before any "release" will occur. We can't be afraid to bring the entire issue outside in the light and admit that there's a hell of a lot more mental illness roaming around out there than anyone can even comprehend.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Update:

Autopsy: Death is homicide
Infant girl was alive when her arms were severed, report says; mother still in jail without bail

A 10-month-old Plano baby who died last week was alive when her arms were severed, according to preliminary autopsy results. Police say the baby's mother killed the infant.

The cause of Margaret Elizabeth Schlosser's death was "sharp force amputation of the upper extremities," according to the medical examiner's findings, which were released by Plano police.

The baby's death was ruled a homicide.

Her mother, Dena Schlosser, 35, remains jailed without bail in Collin County on a capital murder charge. Her attorney, David Haynes, said his client does not understand the charge against her.

Plano police Detective Bryan Wood said the preliminary autopsy report contained no surprises. He said investigators continue to look into the case and are preparing to present it to the Collin County district attorney's office to seek an indictment against Mrs. Schlosser.

Mr. Haynes has asked for a bail hearing and an examining trial in front of a magistrate so he can begin to contact psychiatric experts to interview her. The examining trial has been set for Dec. 17.

Police and paramedics were summoned about noon Nov. 22 to the Schlossers' apartment in the 1700 block of Coit Road after Mrs. Schlosser called her husband and told him she cut off the baby's arms, according to police and court records. A police officer found Mrs. Schlosser in her living room, covered with blood and holding a knife shortly after she told a 911 operator she had cut off Margaret's arms.

Paramedics found the baby unconscious in her crib in the back bedroom. She was pronounced dead at Medical Center of Plano.

A bail hearing has been set for Monday.

Mr. Haynes said Mrs. Schlosser had a history of brain injuries from childhood. She also had suffered from postpartum depression since Margaret's birth.

On Friday, the district attorney's office will ask a state district judge to end the Schlossers' parental rights for their two other daughters, ages 6 and 9, who have been in foster care since their mother's arrest.


www.dallasnews.com

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Update:

Mental illness blamed in Plano slaying
Stepfather says mother of infant whose arms were severed was gentle

The stepfather of the Plano woman accused of killing her infant daughter says she was a stable and caring mother whose actions can only be attributed to mental illness.

"If you'd taken a hundred acquaintances at random and said to me, 'Who would be the least likely to do anything involving violence?' I would have put Dena [Schlosser] at the head of that list," said her stepfather, Mick Macaulay, a mental-health counselor in Canada. "This is a woman who takes birds' wings, if they're broken, and splints them and nurses them back to health; just a very gentle person."

Ms. Schlosser, 35, admitted to a 911 operator Nov. 22 that she severed the arms of 10-month-old Margaret, who died shortly afterward at Medical Center of Plano. Ms. Schlosser, who was treated for postpartum depression during a Child Protective Services neglect investigation early this year, was found in her apartment, covered in blood, still holding a knife.

"Knowing Dena, I don't think there's any question that what we saw happen here is postpartum psychosis. It's the only explanation that makes sense," Mr. Macaulay said.

* * *

"If you knew Dena as well as I did, she was a wonderful, stable, intelligent, caring mother," Ms. Fichtner said Wednesday. "Dena had a delightful upbringing."

Ms. Fichtner said Connie Macaulay, who is terminally ill with Parkinson's disease, became concerned about her daughter and grandchildren about two years ago when Ms. Schlosser and her husband, John, became involved in the Water of Life Church in Plano.

"Connie had gone down there to visit Dena and John, and went to their preacher to express her worries about how involved they had become in the church," Ms. Fichtner said.

However, church leaders have said the couple only sporadically attended the church and weren't well known in the congregation.

* * *

Besides the baby's birth in January, Ms. Schlosser had to cope with her mother's illness and the family's financial struggles since her husband was laid off, which forced the family from their home into a small apartment, Mr. Macaulay said.

A judge has granted CPS temporary custody of the Schlossers' other girls – ages 6 and 9 – after CPS determined their father failed to protect his children from their mother. CPS will ask a judge Friday to extend temporary custody indefinitely.

Mr. Macaulay said family members are considering seeking custody of the girls, who are now in foster care.

* * *

Ms. Schlosser remained in the Collin County jail Wednesday, pending a bail hearing set for Monday.


www.dallasnews.com

 

[Texana]

Jeana, I've read recently (probably in the Dallas Morning News) that the whole issue of the laws regarding the insanity defense might be brought up and reformed in the near future. Big issue of course, how to keep these mentally ill killers safely locked away--but not in prison.

One repetitive thread I see in all these cases is that no one recognizes that women can have severe psychosis with post-partum depression, and they can injure or kill their own children.

It's ridiculous, because one of the key factors is that these women have repetitive obsessive thougts about harming their own children. It's one of the identifying factors I think, for PPD. So why the hell doesn't anybody believe they will actually follow through on that? We need to have mental health professionals admit and treat accordingly on this basis--that these women CAN injure or kill children--instead of lumping them all in with the regular "depression" crowd. We know that anger often results in depression--it's not a new theory--and yet the idea that a woman can be so angry and frustrated that she sinks into depression (with the aid of notoriously unstable post partum hormones and chemicals) seems to be a radical thought.

I swear if I read one more "I never thought she would harm the children...." after the fact I'm going to be sick.

As for the religion issue. it's just a whole lot eas to believe God is speaking to you, than to accept you are insane even temporarily. .

 

[Jeana (DP)]

The night before she cut her daughter's arms off, she told her husband she wanted to give the baby back to God. The father did nothing. This is why he'll most likely lose custody of the other two children at least temporarily.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Update:

Baby's killing draws attention to church

PLANO – About 200 regulars sat in padded folding chairs in the brick church in east Plano, worshipping in jeans, suits, boots and heels. There were no hymnals, but most adults brought their own well-worn Bibles.

Their leader, Doyle Davidson, told them that Water of Life Church has been flung into the spotlight and that God wanted them to seize the moment to spread the word of God.

"He is raising me up so the metroplex will know who I am," Mr. Davidson told his followers Sunday morning.

Mr. Davidson says he did not know Dena Schlosser and her husband, John, well. He and others say the couple attended sporadically since church records show they first donated money in June 2002.

Authorities say Mrs. Schlosser killed her 10-month-old daughter last month by cutting off the child's arms. Mr. Davidson said the curiosity that followed about his church and its beliefs can only spread his message, which is broadcast on television.

Mr. Davidson, 72, is a self-described prophet and apostle. He aligns those who question him with Satan.

For much of Sunday's service, Mr. Davidson spoke about himself. His voice at times carried an aw-shucks cadence and other times the sharpness of authority. He is known to lay hands on church members to drive out the devil. The church has services every Wednesday and twice on Sundays.

"This probably sounds like an ego trip, and I don't care anymore," he said later of his methods. "I've been pounded on so many times by unbelievers."

'Why I'm hated'

Mr. Davidson, who prefers "Doyle" to the title of reverend or pastor, knows his teachings aren't mainstream or always well liked. He boils down to two reasons "why I'm hated."

The first is that women – many of whom he calls Jezebels – should not question their husbands.

Second, he believes that the Ten Commandments are "not made for the righteous man, but for the lawless, the disobedient." He considers righteousness "living by faith, by the spirit and doing exactly what Jesus said to do."

Mr. Davidson teaches that doctors aren't necessary because people can be healed if their faith is "in the right place." He doesn't take medicine but says God "won't condemn you for going to a physician."

When paramedics arrived at Mrs. Schlosser's apartment Nov. 22, she was found covered in her daughter's blood, holding a knife and listening to religious hymns. The night before, she told her husband she wanted to "give her child to God," according to court records.

Mrs. Schlosser's stepfather, Mick Macaulay, has stopped short of blaming the church for her actions, but he said the extreme beliefs may have affected her mental health.

* * *

"This diminishing of women, this diminishing of women's powers, women's importance, referring to women as Jezebels, I think, further undermines an already fragile ego state that Dena's experiencing. I think it presses her to subordinate herself and forgo her own judgment.
"I look at Doyle as being one of the major influences in this whole thing."

* * *

Mr. Schlosser's personal Web site contains Bible quotations and a link to Mr. Davidson's Web site. On another site, he writes that his interests are "GOD's plan for my life." Mr. Schlosser has declined to comment through the ordeal.

* * *

www.dallasnews.com