GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #16

[notsure]

Regarding parents of murderers, I have just read this interesting article in the Guardian

That is interesting. Those parents say that they still love their children despite their horrific crimes. As a parent, I can't really imagine what would be worse: my child being murdered, or my child being a murderer.

 

[konformation]

That is interesting. Those parents say that they still love their children despite their horrific crimes. As a parent, I can't really imagine what would be worse: my child being murdered, or my child being a murderer.

I would imagine having a child murdered would trump [in a bad way] having a murderer for a child. That is, if you think someone died in extreme pain, terrified, probably crying for his/her mum - as opposed to the killer [option b] 'knowing' what they are doing, having time to repent, still having life etc...

I know which one I would choose.

 

[Sammyme]

I see today's Daily Star Sunday has a report of a session with another prostitute in California. If it is to be believed, it is appalling. This is The Star, though. I treat anything they print with caution and even scepticism.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/218238/Hooker-s-terrifying-tryst-with-Vincent-Tabak/

 

[Sarahlou]

I find it hard to understand how close family members can have anything to do with a relative who's committed a horrific crime. If I was related to Vincent I wouldn't have anything to do with him ever again. But we're all different.

 

[Tricksy]

Joanna Yeates's killer held hands to my throat during sex session, says escort girl

Read more: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/most-p...ys-escort-girl-115875-23524428/#ixzz1cD8mucum

:sick:

To be fair, the headline of that article is incredibly misleading. It implies that he had his hands around her throat whilst having sexual intercourse.

From what I can gather he gave her a massage as foreplay and she didn't feel threatened at all during the experience:

'In an exclusive interview with the Sunday Mirror, Princess Butterfly said: “I did think it was kind of unusual when he started giving me a neck massage.

“Then he just kept massaging and massaging me there for a long time,” she added. “His hands were very soft and he was not rough when he was doing it, so I didn’t feel scared. He did not hurt me. He said my skin was nice and I could tell he was getting excited. I felt happy and relaxed."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...ys-escort-girl-115875-23524428/#ixzz1cGNGdmsH

Now, whilst I dislike Tabak, I do think that the Sunday Mirror have seized upon a part of her story and blown it up to sensationalise it to sell more copies and that is repulsive to me too.

 

[goldielox]

To be fair, the headline of that article is incredibly misleading. It implies that he had his hands around her throat whilst having sexual intercourse.

From what I can gather he gave her a massage as foreplay and she didn't feel threatened at all during the experience:

'In an exclusive interview with the Sunday Mirror, Princess Butterfly said: “I did think it was kind of unusual when he started giving me a neck massage.

“Then he just kept massaging and massaging me there for a long time,” she added. “His hands were very soft and he was not rough when he was doing it, so I didn’t feel scared. He did not hurt me. He said my skin was nice and I could tell he was getting excited. I felt happy and relaxed."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...ys-escort-girl-115875-23524428/#ixzz1cGNGdmsH

Now, whilst I dislike Tabak, I do think that the Sunday Mirror have seized upon a part of her story and blown it up to sensationalise it to sell more copies and that is repulsive to me too.

I agree. She only says he was massaging her neck, albeit for a long time. Typical media sensationalism.

 

[goldielox]

I find it hard to understand how close family members can have anything to do with a relative who's committed a horrific crime. If I was related to Vincent I wouldn't have anything to do with him ever again. But we're all different.

I think its a case of until you've walked a mile in his or any other family in their position's shoes you can't truly know how you'd feel and how you'd react.

 

[Tricksy]

I find it hard to understand how close family members can have anything to do with a relative who's committed a horrific crime. If I was related to Vincent I wouldn't have anything to do with him ever again. But we're all different.

Just reading through those stories, one murderer was bullied and possibly sexually abused prior to committing the murders, another had a severe mental illness and the third came from a background where they regullarly saw domestic violence and was sexually and physically abused whilst in care.

Whilst these factors certainly don't excuse the acts they committed, I believe that in some small part they help explain why the person may have turned out the way they did. I think that firstly I would have to look at the context in which the murder ocurred.

I don't think that I could turn my back on a relative. I would hate what they did, feel ashamed that they had done it and hate them for carrying out the act, but I still think I would not turn make back on them.

At the very least I would want to make sure they knew what they had done was so terribly wrong and if they were to be released in the future, make sure that they were rehabilitated enough to be let out (I'm in the UK so in all likelyhood they would be released in the future) and not a danger again.

Its a hard situation. Because at the end of the day, VT was by all accounts a loving son and brother (IIRR?). He is still their son and I can understand why they would choose to support him. Even if they do offer him some support they can still find what he did abhorrent and not make excuses for him.

Also, when I talk about supporting a relative, I mean it in the sense that I would admit that what they had done is wrong and expect them to receive their punishment. Not support the person and mislead authorities and lie and evade justice! Yes the Anthony family! I am totally side eyeing you guys here! :maddening:

But, I do think it is unfair when some families get abuse when their child commits a murder. For example - Lois Robinson in the Guardian article. On the face of it, if her story is true (and I have no reason to doubt it) she seemingly did all she could to get her son the help he needed.

 

[brownbread]

I see today's Daily Star Sunday has a report of a session with another prostitute in California. If it is to be believed, it is appalling. This is The Star, though. I treat anything they print with caution and even scepticism.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/218238/Hooker-s-terrifying-tryst-with-Vincent-Tabak/

Same story as in the Express (although they're sister papers so that's not surprising).

Obviously it's not implausible that they've found a prostitute in California who is willing to fabricate this story in exchange for a cash sum.

She does look quite similar to JY (and TM for that matter).

 

[Tricksy]

I think its a case of until you've walked a mile in his or any other family in their position's shoes you can't truly know how you'd feel and how you'd react.

You put that so much better than I did in my long, waffling post Goldielox! But they were the sentiments I was trying to convey in my last post.

I also appreciate your comments regarding the Sunday Mirror article too.

 

[Tricksy]

I see today's Daily Star Sunday has a report of a session with another prostitute in California. If it is to be believed, it is appalling. This is The Star, though. I treat anything they print with caution and even scepticism.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/218238/Hooker-s-terrifying-tryst-with-Vincent-Tabak/

Re: bolded bit by me - I like your style and agree with you totally!

However, if this is true then why wasn't she contacting the prosecution? Nevermind selling her story!

I suppose its plausible that she may not have realised until last week who he was.

I have to say that I am skeptical of some of these papers though. I once knew of someone who sold their story to The News Of The World in regard to a sex scandal and that paper never once checked her facts. Her story was entirely made up and motivated by money.

I am not saying that this is definitely the case here, but I always view what some of these papers come out with with skepticism until a more reliable source reports it.

 

[brownbread]

That is interesting. Those parents say that they still love their children despite their horrific crimes. As a parent, I can't really imagine what would be worse: my child being murdered, or my child being a murderer.

People are complex: they behave in complex ways and are capable of complex emotions. So I don't have any difficulty understanding how family can still love and support VT whilst at the same time being completely horrified by what he has done and hating the part of him that was capable of such a thing.

As to what's worse - your child being murdered or your child being a murderer: neither bears thinking about but I can imagine very little worse than being in the shoes of Joanna's family and loved ones.

 

[goldielox]

Same story as in the Express (although they're sister papers so that's not surprising).

Obviously it's not implausible that they've found a prostitute in California who is willing to fabricate this story in exchange for a cash sum.

She does look quite similar to JY (and TM for that matter).

That's round one.

No doubt in round two next Sunday we'll be treated to "my lucky escape from the clutches of strangle fetish murderer".... by a Guardian internet dater.

 

[kINGFISHER]

I think what people are saying is he has had some odd home circumstance to deal with his mother not well the youngest a loner never played with other children etc . I know Aspergers has been mention as well, so in all not a very good omen for the future. Born that way, his makeup is different wired different to the norm.
When he left home his flat was overlooking a red light district area so was probably interested early in this type of thing . He has no control , no more then we would over a broken leg.

So is he a monster or a victim of his own circumstances.

But it could happen again if there is no cure. Imo he should be supervised for the remainder of his life . I wonder if they knew perhaps he had some condition but never disclosed it because he would have been locked up for good. Out after twenty years with supervision maybe ,how many of those do we know that have slipped through the net. Would his Masonic friends have had some sort of influence in this case.

 

[Sarahlou]

Just reading through those stories, one murderer was bullied and possibly sexually abused prior to committing the murders, another had a severe mental illness and the third came from a background where they regullarly saw domestic violence and was sexually and physically abused whilst in care.

Whilst these factors certainly don't excuse the acts they committed, I believe that in some small part they help explain why the person may have turned out the way they did. I think that firstly I would have to look at the context in which the murder ocurred.

I don't think that I could turn my back on a relative. I would hate what they did, feel ashamed that they had done it and hate them for carrying out the act, but I still think I would not turn make back on them.

At the very least I would want to make sure they knew what they had done was so terribly wrong and if they were to be released in the future, make sure that they were rehabilitated enough to be let out (I'm in the UK so in all likelyhood they would be released in the future) and not a danger again.

Its a hard situation. Because at the end of the day, VT was by all accounts a loving son and brother (IIRR?). He is still their son and I can understand why they would choose to support him. Even if they do offer him some support they can still find what he did abhorrent and not make excuses for him.

Also, when I talk about supporting a relative, I mean it in the sense that I would admit that what they had done is wrong and expect them to receive their punishment. Not support the person and mislead authorities and lie and evade justice! Yes the Anthony family! I am totally side eyeing you guys here! :maddening:

But, I do think it is unfair when some families get abuse when their child commits a murder. For example - Lois Robinson in the Guardian article. On the face of it, if her story is true (and I have no reason to doubt it) she seemingly did all she could to get her son the help he needed.

Good points. I can certainly understand in the cases where the criminal was mentally ill as that is not their fault. I was mainly thinking of people like Vincent. Also Ian Huntley's mother who still visits him in jail. I personally couldn't have anything to do with them if their crime was purely a result of them being an evil person. But it's true that you don't know how someone feels until you are in their shoes.

 

[Curious Alice]

I think what people are saying is he has had some odd home circumstance to deal with his mother not well the youngest a loner never played with other children etc . I know Aspergers has been mention as well, so in all not a very good omen for the future. Born that way, his makeup is different wired different to the norm.
When he left home his flat was overlooking a red light district area so was probably interested early in this type of thing . He has no control , no more then we would over a broken leg.

So is he a monster or a victim of his own circumstances.

But it could happen again if there is no cure. Imo he should be supervised for the remainder of his life . I wonder if they knew perhaps he had some condition but never disclosed it because he would have been locked up for good. Out after twenty years with supervision maybe ,how many of those do we know that have slipped through the net. Would his Masonic friends have had some sort of influence in this case.

Oh my, three things I wasn't aware of ! (are they facts or media speculations ?)

For what it's worth I think the guy has psychological problems, and probably has had for a long time, but as he is well educated and very intelligent, he appears high functioning and has been able to live a relatively conventional life.

I hope he has access to mental health professionals as I too worry about his ability to reoffend in the future.

 

[Neurotripsy]

Oh my, three things I wasn't aware of ! (are they facts or media speculations ?)

For what it's worth I think the guy has psychological problems, and probably has had for a long time, but as he is well educated and very intelligent, he appears high functioning and has been able to live a relatively conventional life.

The possibility of Asperger's Syndrome was just speculation, I believe. I read about the red light district in in an article about his background yesterday but can't remember which one since I've viewed so many, but it's mentioned in passing here as well.

 

[kINGFISHER]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...hes-not-insane-so-why-is-he-in-Broadmoor.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-knew-risk-in-holding-Aspergers-patients.html

We don't know for sure if it is, could be a combination of illnesses but nothing mentioned in court ,something might come to light later. A couple of interesting articles. On one side people with Aspergers are intelligent but lack social skills. If it was anything else other then Aspergers I would think he would have done a better job of not being detected.

 

[coley144]

I think that the situation in high security units like broadmoor and rampton, where mentally ill patients mix with criminally convicted patients is very serious and needs something
doing about it.

But I don't think a diagnosis of aspergers applies in Vincent tabacs case. Obviously I could be wrong but reports of him having fun at parties and over Christmas, even after killing Jo, suggest a person who doesn't have difficulty in social situations. Yes he might be awkward but aspergers is a lot more than just awkward.

Doesn't his behaviour more imply someone who is really good at hiding emotions or possibly only displaying those judged acceptable?

I used to work in a psychiatric unit and met quite a few people with aspergers. I would've thought, and again I'm no expert I'm just speculating, that in the same circumstance as Vincent tabac they would have been more agitated rather than less, because it all involved change, disruption and social contact - things they found more difficult.

 

[Curious Alice]

I think that the situation in high security units like broadmoor and rampton, where mentally ill patients mix with criminally convicted patients is very serious and needs something
doing about it.

But I don't think a diagnosis of aspergers applies in Vincent tabacs case. Obviously I could be wrong but reports of him having fun at parties and over Christmas, even after killing Jo, suggest a person who doesn't have difficulty in social situations. Yes he might be awkward but aspergers is a lot more than just awkward.

Doesn't his behaviour more imply someone who is really good at hiding emotions or possibly only displaying those judged acceptable?

I used to work in a psychiatric unit and met quite a few people with aspergers. I would've thought, and again I'm no expert I'm just speculating, that in the same circumstance as Vincent tabac they would have been more agitated rather than less, because it all involved change, disruption and social contact - things they found more difficult.

Different level of Aspergers I suppose, I know a young person with Aspergers who is at Uni at the moment, having a hard time fitting in but determined to beat the problems he faces and get a good education. It's not a sentence to a non fulfilling life, and as you are aware, some cope better than others in stressful situations. However I wouldn't be surprised if VT didn't have Aspergers, but I don't know enough about psychiatric conditions to know what it could be. A psychopath perhaps fits his profile better ?

I don't think we know enough about this guy yet. Is there such a thing as just a "bad" person ?

Out of interest in Broadmoor & Rampton, are those convicted and the "regular" patients not segregated at all ? There are two entirely different reasons for them being there.