UK UK - Manchester, 'Angel of the Meadow' WhtFem Skeletal, 16-30, buried, Jan'10

Few thoughts:

- No hair was mention in any articles. Were they all gone? Absolutely no traces of any?
- Her shoe - was it anywhere mentioned what size it was and maybe which brand? Would be interesting to know if it was UK or European measurement.
- Her handbag - it was mentioned that it was found empty. Strangely there is no photo anywhere of it, no colour, brand or make mentioned. Bags are important to women and this could be one of the bigger clues. I wish someone digs up any extra info about that and by miracle also photo of it.

Very silly question - what is guiness measuring chart which was found near to her? What and how is it used? I know beer is poured to glass in which point or for what reason that is measured? Or is that something else that is measured?
 
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Published March 9, 2011

Florence McLellan vanished from that area about 60 years ago. Her surviving family who still live in Greater Manchester, saw the police appeal for information about the bones and called officers to say they thought it could be her. But detectives managed to trace the 74-year-old to her Islington home and put her in touch with her long-lost relatives.

Read about the fantastic reunion

Update Manchester Building Female Skeleton - Defrosting Cold Cases
 
Published May 24, 2011 - (part below bolded by me as that detail was never mentioned in any other news)

She was most likely European but could have come from the Middle East or Indian sub-continents. She also had a number of fillings in her teeth and had a missing first upper right pre-molar, which would have been visible when she smiled.

New details emerged as well:
  1. the victim may have been sexually assaulted
  2. she was naked from the waist down
  3. presumed to be white
  4. possibly age 18-30 at death
  5. a jacket, a single shoe, tights, and a handbag were also discovered in the area. Authorities had previously revealed that a 1970s-style pinafore dress, a jumper, and a blue bra were found
  6. she suffered a fractured jaw, a fractured collar bone, and fractures to two bones in her neck
  7. authorities now believe that she was bludgeoned to death
  8. authorities believe that the woman wore a size 12 dress
  9. she was not wearing the dress or the tights but forensic tests have confirmed that they belonged to her
  10. the handbag was empty
  11. three different colours of carpet were found at the scene: orange, blue, and dark blue
  12. the blue carpet appeared to have been cut to fit a vehicle. It had holes for a gear-stick. Some of the carpet was burnt, meaning there may have been a fire at the site
  13. dental records have confirmed that the body is not that of three missing women: Helen Sage, Zoe Simpson or Helen McCourt.

    Ruled out by DNA were serial killer and sex offender Peter Tobin and jailed child killer Ronald Castree.


    Update Manchester Building Female Skeleton - Defrosting Cold Cases
 
Sorry for overposting. As there have been huge response to her FB appeal and million information and brainstorming most of the day about her case, she is strongly on my mind. Adding few extra scattered thoughts (not facts), all just in my humble opinion.
===
Her murder occurred not far from her dumping spot, few miles radius circle from where she was found. My reasoning - if it happened on the outskirts of the city, you would NOT travel to city centre to dump her but rather opposite, outside of the city - secluded area.

Her murder happened inside of the dwelling rather then outside. Dwelling could be private house, pub, hotel etc. Reasoning - long orange carpet is very likely from the place where original crime occured. Person removing her body grabbed what was nearby to conceal her when moving her from place to car but also to carry her easier by one or two people. Carpet is quite narrow and very long which would be unusual to have at home or to have such a long home corridor/room (in UK). Of course I could be wrong. I could see it rather as pub, hotel or some other place carpet. Perp/s was very likely owner or staff of the place where carpet was taken from, or lived there. Find where this carpet is from and you find the murderer.

69903992_2450589048553297_2602852693655420928_n.png

(some weird pattern/design on this carpet. Can't figure out what it is or how it would look like as new)

To add, I don't think she was killed at her own home/place. If she would have been removed from her own home and dumped elsewhere then there would be nothing else dumped with her (certainly not her jacket) or there would be more items.

To state the obvious, her murderer was very angry at her for certain unknown reason and bludgened her to death, then raped her. Or raped her and then beaten her to death.

Her body was found half naked. So no removal of all clothing after the murder but also no putting back on her cloth by perp to conceal ID or sex assault. Perp simply transported her how she died in place A to dump her to place B. Quick. What is more strange to me though is that perp collected most or all of her items from crime scene A and dumped it next to her in place B. So no leaving things behind where crime occured as many murderers do, but rather clearing it (due to being his work place or other reason?). Also no driving around to dump her belongings whereever, in different bins or other places on the way. It would suggest that he transported her body there very shortly after the murder but also that it was short journey.

There is no mention of any jewelry found. Which for someone dressed in dress and nice high heels is a bit unusual. No rings, no earings, no necklace, no watch. Was it robbery or did he keep it as a trophy?

Empty handbag - most likely concealment of her ID, but also could be part of the robbery. Makes me also think that he could have used it to store and carry her dress, jacket, thights and shoes from A to B. He did not carry her items without some bag all the way and no other bags were mentioned to be found.

While alive she was dressed in jumper, quite long thick dress with tights underneath and having jacket on top, suggesting crime did not happen in summer month but rather in spring or autumn months.

Her body was transported in Ford Cortina. Only reason perp would have to remove the car carpet and dumped strangely next to her, is that there was something on that carpet. If it was blood, it would point that she was not transported in carboot as usually murderers do but rather inside of the car (strange). Another thought would be that murder could have actually happend in that car but I would rule that out as if that was the case you do not go then back home to look for the carpet, take her out of the car to wrapped her in it and put her back inside of the car. No chance.

There were burns on some of the carpet/s which seems that after the dump he tried to ignite all the evidence. For whatever reason it did not work out. Some of the news articles suggest that fire could have been at original crime scene. While that is interesting thought and should be looked at fires nearby, I lean on 1st option - fire attempt at dumping spot.
===

Please feel free to brainstorm, add or dispute any of my scattered thoughts. Of course I might change some of my thoughts when rereading above in few days time.
 
I have to also mention case of murdered Julie Jones from 1998. Detectives from her case cooperated with Helen Sage investigators as both women were working in the same part of Manchester.

Julie's murder and circumstances how she was found remind me a lot of Angel Meadow case despite that alleged timeframe of Angel Meadow point that it might have happened decade of even two prior to Julie's murder.
===

_68399603_juliejones.jpg

(photo of Julie Jones)

Julie Jones' body was found naked wrapped in a carpet under bushes in Old Smithfield Market, Shudehill, Manchester, on 3 July 1998. She died of severe crush injuries.
---
Her clothes and jewellery have never been found.

Link to article - Plea to catch daughter's killer

Similarities with Angel Meadow case: (Julie was found outside, also hidden in the city centre, also wrapped in the carpet, naked, also no jewellery present, also with very severe injuries)

I have not checked on map (yet) how far is Smithfield Market from Angel Meadow area but I am curious to find out. There might be no link whatsoever between two cases but certainly interesting similarities.
 
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Bumping, re post
UK Missing Persons Unit
Case 10-000491
322.jpg



female
Age range
18 - 30
Ethnicity
unknown
Height
155cm - 170cm
Date found
25 January 2010
Body or remains
body
Circumstances
Found at Angel Meadows Car Park. Covered by a blue carpet prior to discovery.
Eye colour
unknown
Clothing
jumper - unknown - blue - unknown

underwear - bra - blue - unknown

dress - unknown - green - unknown - Pinafore with large buttons & unusual design on the front - this was found near the female

footwear - High Heeled - black - unknown - 1 x stiletto found near the female

Possessions
Handbag - found near the female. Plain blue carpet found on top of her. Patterned orange carpet also found with the body.
 
With regards to carpet - one of the posters during FB appeal mentioned that pattern of folds on this particular carpet seems to suggest it was carpet from stairs.

316.jpg


While I pondered and personally thought that folds could happened while carpet was laying there folded and dumped for decades I do think it is excellent and quite valid thought and might be actually correct. As it is quite narrow and long it could perfectly fit stairs.

(But would not other inhabitants not notice? And how easy or difficult is it to rip away carpet from stairs?) Anyway, still very valid suggestion so adding it to her thread.
 
With regards to carpet - one of the posters during FB appeal mentioned that pattern of folds on this particular carpet seems to suggest it was carpet from stairs.

316.jpg


While I pondered and personally thought that folds could happened while carpet was laying there folded and dumped for decades I do think it is excellent and quite valid thought and might be actually correct. As it is quite narrow and long it could perfectly fit stairs.

(But would not other inhabitants not notice? And how easy or difficult is it to rip away carpet from stairs?) Anyway, still very valid suggestion so adding it to her thread.
It does appear to be a stairway carpet.
Wondering if it was professionally removed by a carpet-layer and put in the garbage?
 
...Dwelling could be private house, pub, hotel etc. Reasoning - long orange carpet is very likely from the place where original crime occured...
Carpet is quite narrow and very long which would be unusual to have at home or to have such a long home corridor/room (in UK). Of course I could be wrong. I could see it rather as pub, hotel or some other place carpet. Perp/s was very likely owner or staff of the place where carpet was taken from, or lived there. Find where this carpet is from and you find the murderer.

(some weird pattern/design on this carpet. Can't figure out what it is or how it would look like as new)
I think that type of long, thin carpet (or Runner?) was quite common back then?
It looks like it would fit a hallway/stairs in an average, terrace styled townhouse (which I imagine there being a lot in the Manchester area o_O )

Kinda like this...
capitol-graphite-stair-runner-p1464-16469_image.jpg
:p "some weird pattern/design on this carpet"
That & awful colours like this 'orange' were also very common in the 1960's/70's for the average working-class home.
il_340x270.2023721223_pja0.jpg
daaacf6744a72cc52bee3a032fea7765.jpg
contemporary-runner-rugs-orange-rug-for-hallway-designs-and-green-stairs-carpet-runners-hall-photo-with.jpg


:cool:I think personally?

Vintage/Retro Hallway Rug & Carpet Runners
 
Published May 24, 2011 - (part below bolded by me as that detail was never mentioned in any other news)

She was most likely European but could have come from the Middle East or Indian sub-continents. She also had a number of fillings in her teeth and had a missing first upper right pre-molar, which would have been visible when she smiled.

New details emerged as well:
  1. the victim may have been sexually assaulted
  2. she was naked from the waist down
  3. presumed to be white
  4. possibly age 18-30 at death
  5. a jacket, a single shoe, tights, and a handbag were also discovered in the area. Authorities had previously revealed that a 1970s-style pinafore dress, a jumper, and a blue bra were found
  6. she suffered a fractured jaw, a fractured collar bone, and fractures to two bones in her neck
  7. authorities now believe that she was bludgeoned to death
  8. authorities believe that the woman wore a size 12 dress
  9. she was not wearing the dress or the tights but forensic tests have confirmed that they belonged to her
  10. the handbag was empty
  11. three different colours of carpet were found at the scene: orange, blue, and dark blue
  12. the blue carpet appeared to have been cut to fit a vehicle. It had holes for a gear-stick. Some of the carpet was burnt, meaning there may have been a fire at the site
  13. dental records have confirmed that the body is not that of three missing women: Helen Sage, Zoe Simpson or Helen McCourt.

    Ruled out by DNA were serial killer and sex offender Peter Tobin and jailed child killer Ronald Castree.


    Update Manchester Building Female Skeleton - Defrosting Cold Cases

Just wondering about a few things. They could trace back the dress and the tights to her with DNA. What about the shoe and the bag or even the carpet. To me it seems most likely that the blue carpet from the car was used to cover her up. What was with the orange/yellow carpet? I think indeed it was from a stairway. To me it looks to have animals (tigers/catlike figures) on it. It was found with the body?. Was she rapped in it, were there fibers, dna from her on it? Or did somebody just left it/dumped it there. Like possibly the shoe (supposed to be from the eighties) was not hers, broken heal….I don't know….

It would really help to have a list of all the women they looked into, and for some reason, aren't or couldn't be a match.

I have a friend who likes the fifties style and dresses according to it....in 2019. It's hard with all the info to pinpoint the approx. year she died.
 
At first thought this must be someone working in a pub ie the pinafore showing a drinking glass and the Guinness measuring chart, but thinking now it may have been a "costume" for Halloween or similar type of party.
The reason i changed my mind about pub/restaurant worker is because they would not likely dress like that (too warm, the "drinking pinafore" too obvious) and the shoes too uncomfortable.
imo, speculation.
 
At first thought this must be someone working in a pub ie the pinafore showing a drinking glass and the Guinness measuring chart, but thinking now it may have been a "costume" for Halloween or similar type of party.
The reason i changed my mind about pub/restaurant worker is because they would not likely dress like that (too warm, the "drinking pinafore" too obvious) and the shoes too uncomfortable.
imo, speculation.
:cool: Has anyone found anything on this "Guinness Measuring Chart" yet?

I'm not finding anything which gives a better idea as to what it is exactly.
The image of it does look like the typeface used by the brewery but I've no idea what it's supposed to 'measure'? :confused:
A pint of Guinness is a PINT.
In any pub the only measure necessary would be the glass it was served in.

The 'Guinness Book of Records' does have definitive measurements & I'm quite sure it started out as a kind of promo. so it is connected to the drink & would use similar typefaces I guess?

But even so, unfortunately, Guinness 'giveaways' have long been renowned for being found in almost every pub in the U.K. every St. Paddy's Day even as far back as the 70's o_O (thou I'm not totally sure about that)
 
:cool: Has anyone found anything on this "Guinness Measuring Chart" yet?

I'm not finding anything which gives a better idea as to what it is exactly.
The image of it does look like the typeface used by the brewery but I've no idea what it's supposed to 'measure'? :confused:
A pint of Guinness is a PINT.
In any pub the only measure necessary would be the glass it was served in.

The 'Guinness Book of Records' does have definitive measurements & I'm quite sure it started out as a kind of promo. so it is connected to the drink & would use similar typefaces I guess?

But even so, unfortunately, Guinness 'giveaways' have long been renowned for being found in almost every pub in the U.K. every St. Paddy's Day even as far back as the 70's o_O (thou I'm not totally sure about that)

Maybe it has to do with this:
Although the glass must be accurately-calibrated, industry guidelines only require a pint to be at least 95% liquid, allowing 5% of the pint to consist of the foamy 'head'.[12][13] The Campaign for Real Ale (CAMRA) has described this practice as selling a short measure, and says that it costs drinkers £1m a day in beer they have paid for but not received. The British Beer and Pub Association has issued guidelines for bar staff to give a 'top up' to any drinker who is unsatisfied with the measure they receive.[14]

Pint glass - Wikipedia
 
Maybe it has to do with this:
Although the glass must be accurately-calibrated, industry guidelines only require a pint to be at least 95% liquid, allowing 5% of the pint to consist of the foamy 'head'.The Campaign for Real Ale


Pint glass - Wikipedia
That is correct for every other draught beer available.
With Guinness thou that would be almost sacrilegious ;)

740099.jpg
Guinness is an entirely different entity!

:D - For educational purposes -

The Science Behind Pouring The Perfect Pint Of Guinness

In recent decades the Guinness advertising campaign has revolved around the motto that ‘good things come to those who wait’ – a nod to the very precise, elaborate and time-consuming art-form of pouring the perfect pint of the Black Stuff...

Do these steps really make any difference, or is it all theatricality?

Did you know it takes 6 steps to pour the perfect pint? Learn this art at the Guinness Academy during your visit. pic.twitter.com/s8ZWkRcPf7

— GUINNESS STOREHOUSE (@homeofguinness)
How do we get to this perfect pint though? Bartenders all over the world are presented with the instructions below, breaking the six stages of the pouring process down

Guinness-Zertifikat.jpg
This settling step is reputed to take exactly 119.53 seconds. Not two minutes. Not 119 seconds. 119.53 seconds

Forbes

:cool: To add - Every pub has separate Guinness glasses.

So hopefully this explains why this 'measuring chart' confuses me (& anyone else who has experienced Guinness drinkers in any British pub I should imagine)?
 
That is correct for every other draught beer available.
With Guinness thou that would be almost sacrilegious ;)

740099.jpg
Guinness is an entirely different entity!

:D - For educational purposes -

The Science Behind Pouring The Perfect Pint Of Guinness

In recent decades the Guinness advertising campaign has revolved around the motto that ‘good things come to those who wait’ – a nod to the very precise, elaborate and time-consuming art-form of pouring the perfect pint of the Black Stuff...

Do these steps really make any difference, or is it all theatricality?

How do we get to this perfect pint though? Bartenders all over the world are presented with the instructions below, breaking the six stages of the pouring process down

Guinness-Zertifikat.jpg
This settling step is reputed to take exactly 119.53 seconds. Not two minutes. Not 119 seconds. 119.53 seconds

Forbes

:cool: To add - Every pub has separate Guinness glasses.

So hopefully this explains why this 'measuring chart' confuses me (& anyone else who has experienced Guinness drinkers in any British pub I should imagine)?

I know….the logo on the card wasn't a Guinness logo ever as far as I could find, looking into the history of the logo, at merchandise....I think this card has nothing to do with this girl. Why is there not a cleaned up photo, btw? I think I can poor a wonderful pint op Guinness by now. Big chance it's all about the foam.
 
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Guinness-measure.jpg
3f4eb4fc7254c99ec7fcdfba6c7f09b4.jpg 316.jpg

My uncle owned a pub in Ireland, and as a child, when I visited, I would wash glasses behind the bar.
This may be what they were talking about. It measures the head of the beer.

PS... Just wanted to add that this may be a close resemblance to the orange runner. Made in the 60's and 70's and popular over there.
 
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;) The ^ above also explains the whole 'shamrock' thing.
potentialgold.JPG

tenor.gif

o_O So all this brings me to thinking did she go missing on or close to a St Paddy's Day?
(17th March)
 
;) The ^ above also explains the whole 'shamrock' thing.
potentialgold.JPG

tenor.gif

o_O So all this brings me to thinking did she go missing on or close to a St Paddy's Day?
(17th March)

You mean, she was "dressed up" for St Patrick's day? Wouldn't she have worn something in 'kelly" green....I don't know.
 

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