VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #8

[PAXIMUS]

I disagree that he is a sociopath as he seemingly doesnt exhibit sociopathic behavior prior to this incident. My theory is a broken hearted kid, rejected by a girl he went all in on and when it didnt work out he snapped and that was largely due to the way the girls treated him after they finally met him in person. Teenage girls together can be brutal and the boy was lovesick and spurned and suffered a momentary psychological break. I think his lawyer agrees.

I dont see Axis II PD with Sam at all. I see a somewhat sheltered kid who was emotionally and socially stunted and couldnt handle the rejection of Emma and the resulting fallout from his horrorcore heros once they found out he couldnt score.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Worth mentioning that he specifically denied this had to do with the murders in his letter. The letter in which he announced his departure from WIR is still online I think.

I am more of the opinion that Sam called Sinnyster (or is it Synnister I can never remember) because he was his friend and then wasn't believed right away. After all everyone has said they were shocked to hear that he actually killed anyone and he has been described as a constant joker by those that knew him online. I think Synnister thought he was joking until Sam eventually convinced him possibly by sending photographs of the bodies via email.

Seems unthoughtful of him to contact his friend after he killed a bunch of people though. Unthoughtful as in to implicate. Are there pictures of the dead bodies (not taken by LE)? Why would he need to prove it? What could they do about it or did he expect to receive advice. :waitasec:

What would help is to know if we are talking about a teenager type mentality here or a criminal on on a mission. There doesn't appear to be a conclusion regarding the perp's motive. If he had a plan in place though (staging the car), he made a mess of that so it sounds as if he may have been flying by the seat of his pants.

I can understand how and why the friend, once convinced Sam was telling him the truth, would quickly call someone else when he realized he was the first one Sam contacted after murdering people. He should have called the police but I can understand why he may have needed 'a meeting' sort of.

 

[ziggy]

Well remember that Melanie's mother called Raz because she was getting frantic because she was unable to contact Mel or the Kelly/Niederbrock family. That led to more phone calls between the SKR and WIR peeps and eventually led someone to admit Sam had called and said he killed everyone. Then supposedly Shirm called the police to have them check out the possible homicide at the residence - which he knew because of Emma's orders for merch.

Did Sam call that person in order to boast or because he was freaked out? We don't know do we?

Pax - I tend to think Sam is way too cool a cucumber for just being a kid who snapped. The way he acted post murders suggests to me anyway, that he can exhibit a complete detachment from the living and a total break with reality, like a psychopath.

OF COURSE his defense attorney is going to paint him in the most sympathetic light, but it's worth looking into the possibility that his stunted emotional and psychological growth left him an empty soul.

Much like the actions of a Casey Anthony or a Scott Peterson...the jury will not understand the calm cool humanoid - seemingly VOID of any upset or anxiety - and they will take that into consideration when deciding his fate I'm afraid.

 

[tapu]

I disagree that he is a sociopath as he seemingly doesnt exhibit sociopathic behavior prior to this incident. My theory is a broken hearted kid, rejected by a girl he went all in on and when it didnt work out he snapped and that was largely due to the way the girls treated him after they finally met him in person. Teenage girls together can be brutal and the boy was lovesick and spurned and suffered a momentary psychological break. I think his lawyer agrees.

I dont see Axis II PD with Sam at all. I see a somewhat sheltered kid who was emotionally and socially stunted and couldnt handle the rejection of Emma and the resulting fallout from his horrorcore heros once they found out he couldnt score.

"a momentary psychological break"....?

 

[PAXIMUS]

I'm a newbie to this case and want to comment that, I wondered why a guy like Sam, a proclaimed follower of satan (right?), would be afraid of basement noises. My thoughts were "so the satanists a wimp - strange". You addressed that and it makes sense.

The factor that Sam's dad told him not to come back if he went to VA (I hadn't read that) probably plays an important role in this nightmare. It reminds me of Casey A's 'maybe I'm a spiteful *****' comment to her brother when he was trying to find out where Caylee was. If Sam knew his dad meant business, things had not worked out for him with Emma and he now had nowhere to go - did these combined circumstances cause him to snap?

Has it been explored if Sam's father had any foreknowledge of a plan Sam had to do harm? That he knew his son was up to no good on his way out to VA? Sam is twenty years old so what's with the father placing those restrictions on him? Could Sam be a spiteful ______? He found himself a home in the Big House.

According to PIXY who posts here and was at the concert with Sam and the others, she spoke to Sam before he left Cali for VA and he told her he had saved all summer for this trip and both mom and dad refused to take him to the airport and dad told him not to bother coming back to Cali if he went to VA.

This tells me its a kid who 'went all in' and was looking for and EXPECTING a new life with Emma. Sams sister tells us he had a history of bad hygiene and didnt regularly shower etc. Likely when he met Emma he wasnt what she pictured him to be and immediately began to reject him with her and Mel probably being quite cruel and talking to eachother laughing at him etc and he picked up on it. We also know Emma was texting another horrorcore rapper from the show on their way home as Sam sat next to her and Mel in the car for 13 hours while the girls giggled and read msgs from other guys flirting the whole time. All this time Sam is seething inside and when he finally gets home we know he took her cell phone and checked her msgs and likely saw people he knew and who he thought were his friends and horrocore associates flirting with Emma and making fun of him, calling him a nerd and a loser etc.

The boy snapped. There is no evidence to suggest Sam is a sociopath. Sociopaths tend to be very smart, well spoken and calculated, Sam was the opposite of all of this, he was a bumbling kid in a 20 year olds body who was rejected by a girl he really wanted and made fun of by those in the horrorcore community whom he respected.

Its really a simple case of passion and a momentary psychological break. The fact that he killed the father perhaps a few days later doesnt indicate a momentary psychological break but that was simply to hide what he had done, the father had to go to buy Sam more time.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Well remember that Melanie's mother called Raz because she was getting frantic because she was unable to contact Mel or the Kelly/Niederbrock family. That led to more phone calls between the SKR and WIR peeps and eventually led someone to admit Sam had called and said he killed everyone. Then supposedly Shirm called the police to have them check out the possible homicide at the residence - which he knew because of Emma's orders for merch.

Did Sam call that person in order to boast or because he was freaked out? We don't know do we?

Pax - I tend to think Sam is way too cool a cucumber for just being a kid who snapped. The way he acted post murders suggests to me anyway, that he can exhibit a complete detachment from the living and a total break with reality, like a psychopath.

OF COURSE his defense attorney is going to paint him in the most sympathetic light, but it's worth looking into the possibility that his stunted emotional and psychological growth left him an empty soul.

Much like the actions of a Casey Anthony or a Scott Peterson...the jury will not understand the calm cool humanoid - seemingly VOID of any upset or anxiety - and they will take that into consideration when deciding his fate I'm afraid.

Casey IS a sociopath thats clear you can see that in her behavior all through her life, she has no ability to feel any compassion for anyone but herself. I just dont see it in Sam, I see a kid who had not much to look forward to in his home life who put it all on the table for this trip to meet Emma and slowly saw it all go south and not only was he losing her but by proxy he was losing his status in the horrorcore community as well because of it and he had nothing left to live for and snapped.

The level of voilence evidenced in these murders suggests a crime of passion, someone very hurt and angry not someone killing for fun. A sociopath would not smash people up with a maul, this wasnt strictly business this was personal and Sam was in pain and took his pain out on them with the maul.

 

[tapu]

I'm sticking with this new scenario. I mean, for now. It just fits too well to me. Like, with what dngrs said, too. It explains all the affect, and that goes a long way....

 

[tapu]

I think the general thought among psych professionals is that no one "just snaps."



(And the tapu is intimately acquainted with a lot of psych professionals.)

 

[PAXIMUS]

The average person is not going to understand what I am about to say but any criminal profiler will agree with me, you have to REALLY LOVE and CARE FOR SOMEONE VERY DEEPLY in order to kill them they way Sam killed Emma. Thats just how it works, its a crime of passion and sociopaths are not capable of passion or love.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I'm sticking with this new scenario. I mean, for now. It just fits too well to me. Like, with what dngrs said, too. It explains all the affect, and that goes a long way....

How do you explain the hurt and anger that is evidenced in the way he killed them, thats a lot of pain expressing itself there tapu, really.

Crimes of passion.

Sociopaths are too detached to smash people up with mauls because they hurt so badly inside due to how that person rejected their love.


(this is a great debate though and I am glad we are having it!)

 

[tapu]

I think you're projecting hurt and anger. There is no evidence for that. The maul bludgeoning goes right with his horrorcore obsessions. He didn't have to feel hurt to swing that.

Also, would he have stayed with the bodies right there, if he had feelings like those you describe? Uh-uh.

I think we're onto something here...

 

[tapu]

Where in the world is all that coming from? Profilers would agree? (Profilers are on a par with psychics, although some psychics may actually have better track records.)

And you think psychopaths don't kill that way? Ted Bundy got in such a frenzy that he practically bit off one victim's buttocks.

 

[tapu]

The average person is not going to understand what I am about to say but any criminal profiler will agree with me, you have to REALLY LOVE and CARE FOR SOMEONE VERY DEEPLY in order top kill them they way Sam killed Emma. Thats just how it works, its a crime of passion and sociopaths are not capable of passion or love.

So... he must have REALLY LOVED AND CARED FOR Melanie and Debra and Mark, too?


(Pax, buddy, never debate with a linguist. Didn't anybody ever tell you that? But if you still want to, I'll be home and back on here in about an hour and a half. Oh, yeah, and I love you. )

 

[PAXIMUS]

I think you're projecting hurt and anger. There is no evidence for that. The maul bludgeoning goes right with his horrorcore obsessions. He didn't have to feel hurt to swing that.

Also, would he have stayed with the bodies right there, if he had feelings like those you describe? Uh-uh.

I think we're onto something here...

I dont know what you mean that I am projecting hurt and anger as I am niether hurt nor angry and I am only speaking in terms of what I see in Sam WRT the evidence we have in front of us.

You may be right and I may be wrong I do not know but I dont see the evidence for sociopathy here at all.

And I love The Tapu also!

 

[PAXIMUS]

I think you're projecting hurt and anger. There is no evidence for that. The maul bludgeoning goes right with his horrorcore obsessions. He didn't have to feel hurt to swing that.

Also, would he have stayed with the bodies right there, if he had feelings like those you describe? Uh-uh.

I think we're onto something here...

We dont know much about if he stayed with the bodies or not they may have been in an entirely different part of the house and he was panicked and had no idea where to go, in fact his call to whatshisface at Wicked Intent Records suggests exactly that, he said Sam was crying and confused and didnt know what to do.

 

[PAXIMUS]

So... he must have REALLY LOVED AND CARED FOR Melanie and Debra and Mark, too?


(Pax, buddy, never debate with a linguist. Didn't anybody ever tell you that? But if you still want to, I'll be home and back on here in about an hour and a half. Oh, yeah, and I love you. )

The other 3 murders after Emma was collateral damage, they had to go to buy him time for what he had done to Emma perhaps?


This isnt coming from anywhere my friend I am only debating, none of us know a damn thing when it comes right down to it. I am simply saying I feel this was a crime of passion and he DID NOT go to VA with the intent to kill Emma, as you suggest and which a sociopath would have. He went there to start a new life and when it was all taken from him he snapped.

I just do not see Sam as a sociopath I dont see the hallmarks there.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I see Scary Mary is here she knows Sam.


Mary be honest and objective, do you think Sam is a sociopath or was this a crime of passion by a boy who was hurt deeply?

 

[ScaryMary]

Honestly, I don't think Sam is a sociopath at all. He has told me about how he's been hurt in the past, and how hard it is for him to trust people because of that. IMO, I think 100% this was a crime of passion.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Honestly, I don't think Sam is a sociopath at all. He has told me about how he's been hurt in the past, and how hard it is for him to trust people because of that. IMO, I think 100% this was a crime of passion.

Well at least someone agrees with me!:innocent:

 

[ziggy]

Wait a ticky: has it been confirmed what Sam's demeanor was when he called whatshisname? I can't recall that we know for sure he was upset or freaked out.

I just can't wrap my head around a normal yet reclusive kid who "snaps" and starts wielding a fricking wood maulm, mutilating the bodies of three women.

THEN: what comes next is even more out of character for the poor little kiddo that Pax describes.
* calmly tells the cop that they are at the movies (when their bloody remains are right inside where he killed them)
* leaves phone messages for Mrs. Wells
* CALLS more cops to the house with 4 dead bodies therein
* Makes a few trips to Kroger and wherever
* It is rumored he bought some scented candles to hide the smell
* It is rumored he hung out with some college kids and smoked with them
* Calmly encounters the police two more times while reeking of death
* Has casual conversations with cab driver about Emma as if she were still alive
* Has a meal at Huddle House
* Sleeps at the airport
* Doesn't seem too surprised to be arrested
* Smirks and smiles when the cameras catch him being led into custody
* Jokes that "Jesus told me to do it" for the camera

All of this does not add up to a regular soul who acted under the heat of passion and was unable to control his actions for a very short period of provocation...remember - he had plenty of cooling off time prior to killing Mark and all he had to do was LEAVE the house to avoid Mark, not kill him.

This doesn't pass the smell test for a poor, neglected, socially underdeveloped "kid". I think the horrocore also ate away at any conscience he may have had.