GUILTY WA - Joshua Tabor for waterboarding 4yo daughter, Yelm, 2010

[kbl8201]

Guys.....the word "waterboarding" is the flashpoint here. I have to point out that sadistic, cruel, anger-filled parents have been torturing their children.....yes, even little sweet girls who wear "heart" shirts and can say their letters....from the beginning of time. I don't see how this crime is any more or less horrid and despicable than beating, burning, or torturing in any other way.

This man will lose his rights to this child and will hopefully be put away for a long long time. It's a blessing that the child has grandparents to step up to the plate for her. I wonder if this came as a surprise to them or if this is new behavior for this man?

I would imagine that WS and the world in general is filled with survivors of childhood abuse which entailed the use of water. The only thing I'm grateful for is that the baby didn't drown. A few more seconds and she could have. That's what fury can do.

FWIW, you all know I'm a pacifist. However, we have a young adult son who is having a great deal of trouble with the law. A kindly pastor took him down to the recruiting office and told him he "had to sign up". Absolutely no way would they even look at our son as he is diagnosed with Oppositional Defiant Disorder and Conduct Disorder. No one wants a young man or woman in the military who is unable to control their own anger. I have to admire the military recruiter for seeing the red flags and showing our son the door.

miss iz u know i love you.
but if waterboarding isnt a 'flashpoint' i dont know what is.
we spent years trying to stop us people from doing it to other countries people, regardless of whether they were terrorists or not. that a man could inflict such a horrifc ordeal on his own litte girl is inconcievable to me........and yes we see stuff like this all the time. the question is, when does it stop? when have we all had enough?

 

[kbl8201]

id like to add, that in regards to PTSD This guy was basically a helicopter repairman. im not saying he wasnt involved in fighting, either intentional or not, but i highly doubt he was waterboarding anybody.

 

[Missizzy]

kbl--The love is returned. Couldn't live without your posts. You often say things I wish I could.

I need to clarify my post as I didn't choose my words carefully enough. The word waterboarding is the flashpoint....not the act. Of course we should be enraged that a large man tortured a tiny child with water and the threat of drowning.

I've stated I'm a pacifist (raised as one in fact), therefore I'm sure it's clear as to where I stand on this abysmal form of torture. My point is that parents and caregivers have been holding their children's heads under water for punishment and due to rage literally forever. This little girl undoubtedly suffered horribly and it breaks my heart.

However, water torture (in forms that are equally as cruel and shocking) are used everyday on children. Ask your local CPS worker the stories they hear. I think because this guy is a soldier, this particular word got used. I'm sure it garnered attention. I just don't want to minimize ANY form of torture to a child.

It's not the water...it's the control and power trip mixed with the threat of death which leaves the scars.

Did you know that this is so type of abuse is so prevalent that foster parents have to sign a contract that no punishment will ever be used on a child which involves water--cold showers, throwing water in a child's face, forced hair washing, washing out mouths, etc. It's a well known form of torture and abuse...even without the horrid word, waterboarding.

Don't worry, as per our usual, we're right on the same page.

 

[Oriah]

I doubt if the military paid his bond. And I don't mind if the military's got him -- the other alternative would be to let him go back home where the other kids live. But I'd rather he were in pre-trial detention than wandering around the base. My husband used to be a counselor at a brig, and there were lots of sailors awaiting civilian trials there.

I agree. Better than going where there are kids. But home is probably on post, I would think. Either way- I sure hope his pay's been suspended.

 

[Oriah]

Guys.....the word "waterboarding" is the flashpoint here. I have to point out that sadistic, cruel, anger-filled parents have been torturing their children.....yes, even little sweet girls who wear "heart" shirts and can say their letters....from the beginning of time. I don't see how this crime is any more or less horrid and despicable than beating, burning, or torturing in any other way.

This man will lose his rights to this child and will hopefully be put away for a long long time. It's a blessing that the child has grandparents to step up to the plate for her. I wonder if this came as a surprise to them or if this is new behavior for this man?

I would imagine that WS and the world in general is filled with survivors of childhood abuse which entailed the use of water. The only thing I'm grateful for is that the baby didn't drown. A few more seconds and she could have. That's what fury can do.

FWIW, you all know I'm a pacifist. However, we have a young adult son who is having a great deal of trouble with the law. A kindly pastor took him down to the recruiting office and told him he "had to sign up". Absolutely no way would they even look at our son as he is diagnosed with Oppositional Defiant Disorder and Conduct Disorder. No one wants a young man or woman in the military who is unable to control their own anger. I have to admire the military recruiter for seeing the red flags and showing our son the door.

I applaud the recruiter who did see the red flags in your son (and also the kindly pastor who was trying to do the right thing.) And you, for dealing with the challenges of a child dealing with ODD and CD.

But in my experience, many people- recruiters alike, think that the military is a great way to 'turn someone around who is off track.' Sometimes it does. And sometime the stress of active duty during wartime makes soldiers snap. I freqently work with soldiers from Bragg. It seems to be common knowledge that violent crime increases when soldiers return from deployment.

I have the utmost respect for our military (despite the fact that I, too, consider myself a pacifist) but I feel that there is a pertinent factor in the 'waterboarding' debate.

Military families undergo different types of stress at times than non-military families. This is NO excuse for abuse, just reality that many in the military have been exposed (helicopter repair and Special Forces alike) to torture techniques that the general public is unaware of until it makes the news as a debate, such as waterboarding.

I completely agree that children have suffered at the hands of their cargivers since the world began, and am so grateful this baby survived.
I guess waterboarding is just a new term to add to ways to abuse your child.

 

[kbl8201]

in all the anger i forgot to add how proud i am of the little girl for speaking up. it's even more amazing when you consider they even had to coax her to come out of where she was hiding....

 

[Oriah]

Isn't that the truth.
Thank you for the reminder, can't believe I forgot it. I am somewhat ashamed of myself.

 

[STEADFAST]

I agree. Better than going where there are kids. But home is probably on post, I would think. Either way- I sure hope his pay's been suspended.

They lived off-base in Yelm. That's why it's Thurston County that's charging Tabor and not Pierce County where the base is.

ETA His pay has NOT been suspended. They don't suspend pay if a dependent is involved. The dependent still needs to receive money for housing and living expenses.

 

[Oriah]

They lived off-base in Yelm. That's why it's Thurston County that's charging Tabor and not Pierce County where the base is.

ETA His pay has NOT been suspended. They don't suspend pay if a dependent is involved. The dependent still needs to receive money for housing and living expenses.

That's interesting. I have known of cases here where pay was suspended (despite dependants.) Perhaps that has been because the custody was swiftly changed to someone else able to receive their benefits on the dependants behalf such as health care etc.

I am somewhat confused about the charging situation as well. Here, the county can charge if they are off base but MP can as well- if he was charged off base, why did they not also charge on base if he is confined?
Truly confused.

Thanks for any info you can provide....

Oriah

 

[STEADFAST]

But in my experience, many people- recruiters alike, think that the military is a great way to 'turn someone around who is off track.' Sometimes it does. And sometime the stress of active duty during wartime makes soldiers snap. I freqently work with soldiers from Bragg. It seems to be common knowledge that violent crime increases when soldiers return from deployment.

I have the utmost respect for our military (despite the fact that I, too, consider myself a pacifist) but I feel that there is a pertinent factor in the 'waterboarding' debate.

Military families undergo different types of stress at times than non-military families. This is NO excuse for abuse, just reality that many in the military have been exposed (helicopter repair and Special Forces alike) to torture techniques that the general public is unaware of until it makes the news as a debate, such as waterboarding.
SNIPPED

First of all, despite "common knowledge," returning U.S. troops commit far fewer violent (or non-violent) crimes than the general population of people their age. S econdly, the average U.S. soldier has not been exposed to torture training or witnessing torture. (Not saying that no one is ever tortured, but. believe me, they aren't tortured in front of a bunch of servicemen and servicewomen, who would then be witnesses.)
Returning troops have many social and psychological problems to face when they return, but they have not been turned into criminals or monsters to be feared by the population or their families.
If Tabor had never seen the inside of a base or had any combat experience, he still would have tortured and bullied his daughter -- and he would be at home on bail, probably torturing and bullying his girlfriend's children at this very moment.

 

[kbl8201]

i hope if they dont charge the girlfriend they at least remove the other kids as well.

 

[STEADFAST]

That's interesting. I have known of cases here where pay was suspended (despite dependants.) Perhaps that has been because the custody was swiftly changed to someone else able to receive their benefits on the dependants behalf such as health care etc.

I am somewhat confused about the charging situation as well. Here, the county can charge if they are off base but MP can as well- if he was charged off base, why did they not also charge on base if he is confined?
Truly confused.

Thanks for any info you can provide....

Oriah

The military usually allows civilian courts to charge first if the offense was committed in the civilian community. However, the military can still hold the soldier in pre-trial confinement, even if the civilian court has let him/her out on bail. Also, keep in mind that if he were tried by the military and found guilty, he would remain in the military while his sentence was carried out. The military would prefer that he go to civilian prison and be processed out of military.
As far as pay goes, Tabor hasn't been found guilty of a crime yet. I wouldn't be surprised if paperwork was being processed right now to separate him from the military.
As a counselor at a brig, my husband dealt with many cases and put a great deal of effort into making sure a soldier's dependents were not left destitute or homeless as a result of his or her crime. Lots of paperwork to make sure the money and benefits get to the right people.

 

[Texas Mist]

<snip>

The child is in now the custody of Child Protective Services.

Her father has been released on $10,000 bail, but is prohibited from seeing the little girl. The child's biological mother reportedly lives in Kansas.

Yelm police have referred a potential criminal charge against Tabor's girlfriend to the Thurston County prosecuting attorney, but she has not been arrested at this time.

Tabor's arraignment is scheduled for February 16.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=124838

 

[Oriah]

First of all, despite "common knowledge," returning U.S. troops commit far fewer violent (or non-violent) crimes than the general population of people their age. S econdly, the average U.S. soldier has not been exposed to torture training or witnessing torture. (Not saying that no one is ever tortured, but. believe me, they aren't tortured in front of a bunch of servicemen and servicewomen, who would then be witnesses.)
Returning troops have many social and psychological problems to face when they return, but they have not been turned into criminals or monsters to be feared by the population or their families.
If Tabor had never seen the inside of a base or had any combat experience, he still would have tortured and bullied his daughter -- and he would be at home on bail, probably torturing and bullying his girlfriend's children at this very moment.

STEADFAST, I respectfully disagree about the military aspect of this, but absolutely NOT about the fact that some people will torture and bully children regardless of their experience in the military or other potentionally violent situations.
There are many stats that can be found supporting either position, but also- many stats are not made public from bases due to intelligence issues.

This is only my own personal experience with the soldiers at Bragg and McCall...and as stated earlier have the utmost repect for our military.

Please do not misunderstand. A huge thank you to all who protect both our country and the innocents in other countries... I know that almost none of you commit these sorts of crimes against children and in fact, work diligently to protect them from such.

Oriah

 

[Oriah]

The military usually allows civilian courts to charge first if the offense was committed in the civilian community. However, the military can still hold the soldier in pre-trial confinement, even if the civilian court has let him/her out on bail. Also, keep in mind that if he were tried by the military and found guilty, he would remain in the military while his sentence was carried out. The military would prefer that he go to civilian prison and be processed out of military.
As far as pay goes, Tabor hasn't been found guilty of a crime yet. I wouldn't be surprised if paperwork was being processed right now to separate him from the military.
As a counselor at a brig, my husband dealt with many cases and put a great deal of effort into making sure a soldier's dependents were not left destitute or homeless as a result of his or her crime. Lots of paperwork to make sure the money and benefits get to the right people.

I understand and agree. And a thank you to your husband for helping our military families deal with their unique circumstances.

Oriah

 

[kbl8201]

well i've never had any military experience but i wouldnt lose any sleep waterboarding this ......

 

[STEADFAST]

There's a pic of this at the link.

Tabor's estranged wife, Tiffany Stone, said she was saddened but not surprised by the recent events. Stone said her husband's anger issues began before deployment.

"We knew he was very capable of it and we tried to keep him from getting her," she said. http://www.komonews.com/news/local/83979082.html

 

[kbl8201]

There's a pic of this at the link.

'tabors attorney claims the full story is yet to be told.'

oh great. is he gonna claim the girlfriend did it by herself now?

 

[Missizzy]

The full story? You mean she wouldn't say her "letters" or recite her "colors", either? My Lord. The photo is chilling as the guy is handsome and smiling. I'm sure that's not the face this poor child looked into while she was being immersed. I noted that she was already "deathly afraid of water". I wonder why?

I think it's all pretty much summed up with her locking herself in the bathroom and this statement:

"The 4-year-old girl has been placed in the care of her maternal grandparents in Montana, where she'd spent most of her life. She reportedly told her grandparents she doesn't ever want to leave again.


For once, please, let's listen to the child.

 

[kbl8201]

that picture scared me more then if he had 3 heads and 12 eyes.
looks are so decieving