Ames
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And why not?? Can't think of any rebuttals?
What The Hell Is Going On Here??????????
- Thread starter Callan
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And why not?? Can't think of any rebuttals?
Ames
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Cool down a bit, Callan. No need to get rude just because other posters' perspective on this issue is different from yours.
If JAR's Christmas tree was in fact decorated with cowboy motives including rope, then the rope fond in the sack could have been left-over rope from the decoration. Ever thought of that?
I actually agree with Callan on this one...
. I don't know why the Rams denied owning the rope (other than the fact that they tried to distance themselves from anything suspicious)....but, I do not believe that it played any part in JB's murder. I think that you are right....I bet it was left over rope from the decoration.
JMO8778
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If JAR's Christmas tree was in fact decorated with cowboy motives including rope, then the rope fond in the sack could have been left-over rope from the decoration. Ever thought of that?
...and found in a sack underneath his bed,it makes perfect sense to me.why would an intruder put it there?
lannie
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don't forget the teddy bear ! Pats turned white when she saw a pic. of it ,denying ever seeing it,then it was found out that it had been a gift to JB .
I had to clear your first quote, because I was informed that there were too many characters in the posting.
Funny how Patsy thought that this was "strange" too. I frankly do not see anything at all strange about it. She knew that JB liked crab, and wanted to make sure that she got some of it....what is so strange about THAT, John??
Ah yes, the Whites. The best friends of the Ramsey's. The husband, who on the day of their daughters funeral, causes havoc and virtually attacks John Ramsy.
Are you still surprised that Patsy Ramsey was just a tiny bit suspicious of them?
16 LOU SMIT: Okay. And I know, John, that it
17 really hurts to talk about this guy, but that's
18 probably all you've thought about since day one.
19 You must have a mental picture of the type of
20 person this is. I mean, in your mind. I know I
21 have a mental picture of various people that I
22 would look at. But I'm sure you think about this
23 all the time.
24 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, absolutely, everyday. You
25 know. Of course, my first instinct is, it was a
0040
1 man. Because of some of the similarities,
2 apparently in Patsy's handwriting, I wondered if
3 it was a woman.
Hmmmm...are you giving us a little hint there, John?? Of COURSE it was a woman's handwriting. Even JOHN thinks there are some similarities in the author of the RN handwriting, and Patsy's handwriting. Ok....gee....an intruder that breaks into someones home, and kills their daughter, and they just HAPPEN to have a similiar handwriting as the mother of the murdered child. Hmmm..now what are the odds???
I have no idea why John Ramsey would equate 'similarites' as to what gender the writer was.
The post above this one, and this one...are not things that are out of place...but, I thought that they were interesting.
4 LOU SMIT: And how much would you say you
5 had that night?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't remember, but
7 certainly not more than two glasses, and only if
8 like the glass is not very full. I like to sip on
9 it. I might have two glasses.
10 LOU SMIT: How about Patsy?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: She wasn't -- she might have
12 had a glass served to her. Whether she drank any
13 at all of it. It would have been unusual for her
14 to drink much alcohol.
In Patsy's interview, she said that she had "a couple of cocktails".
And your point is?
14 LOU SMIT: What I have here is a photograph
15 here that's labeled 23-12, and this for the
16 camera. It's a photograph of an entrepreneurial
17 magazine, and it was found at the scene. And it's
18 something that kind of caught our attention from
19 the standpoint that there is writing on this. Now
20 take a look at that.
21 JOHN RAMSEY: (WHISTLE). That's weird.
22 LOU SMIT: Why do you say that?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's got Ray. It's
24 got "no, no, no" written on the three faces, one
25 of whom is the guy from Corporate Express, I
0264
1 think. What does it say? "Heart" "Two Hearts."
2 Where was this found?
3 LOU SMIT: It was found in the house. I'm
4 not sure of the exact location. It's a piece of
5 evidence that was taken that morning.
6 DAVID WILLIAMS: I'm sorry, I misunderstood.
7 Did you say it was found in the house?
8 LOU SMIT: In the Ramsey's house.
9 DAVID WILLIAMS: Okay.
10 LOU SMIT: What do you see in that picture,
11 John, that seems like it -- have you ever seen
12 that article before?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I don't think I ever had.
14 LOU SMIT: Can you describe the writing on it?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like --
16 LOU SMIT: I can get a bigger copy of that.
17 JOHN RAMSEY: It's weird.
18 LOU SMIT: It was in a folder of some kind.
19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know. I mean,
20 I didn't, I'm not. This was a very nice event and
21 a nice award. But it wasn't a big deal for me. And
22 I don't even know if we saved any of this stuff.
23 It was a nice thing. But that is bizarre.
24 It shows a heart and I can't quite figure out what
25 that is across the face.
0265
1 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) identify any
2 one of those as your picture.
3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think that's my picture,
4 but I can't --
5 LOU SMIT: But it's written on your picture,
6 is that correct?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, yeah, it looks like
8 it's my picture.
9 LOU SMIT: Could Patsy or would JonBenet
10 would have written that?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
12 LOU SMIT: Are you sure?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely. That is very
14 strange.
This magazine was found in a folder in the Ramsey home. Now HOW can John say for sure, that Patsy or JB didn't do the drawings? He is doing just like Patsy did, and taking every opportunity that he can...to make it look like an intruder broke in and did these things. So, now, we have the intruder bringing in his own rope, and tape, AND carrying a folder with John's picture in it. I don't THINK so.
And exactly why don't you think so? Anything there difficult to carry?
17 LOU SMIT: Do you remember washing her
18 hands or cleaning up her -- as the Whites are
19 cleaning up before or anything of that nature?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: She was pretty good about
21 cleanliness. She always took a bath (INAUDIBLE)
22 daily, I think. I think she was getting to paying
23 attention to her grooming. I don't specifically
24 remember her washing her hands.
25 LOU SMIT: But could you specifically
0271
1 tell
2 us of a time --
3 JOHN RAMSEY: Where she washed her hands?
4 In fact, Patsy was always after the kids to wash
5 their hands before dinner when they came in from
6 playing. So she would know.
And Patsy can't remember the last time that JB had a bath....and Patsy says that she didn't know if the kids washed their hands at the White's before dinner. But John says that JB ALWAYS took daily baths....he THINKS.
And who exactly looked after the children, whilst the other was at work?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible. (INAUDIBLE) I mean,
19 you can figure out what's in them. The cigar box
20 was sitting on a paint can, or something like
21 that. And I believe it shouldn't have.
22 LOU SMIT: So it wasn't in the place
23 where it had been. It's not on the floor?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: And if I interpret the picture,
25 it's looks like it's kind of almost upside down on
0274
1 the floor.
Again, your point is?
5 LOU SMIT: Were you ever shown the
6 flashlight?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
8 LOU SMIT: Where does that flashlight
9 appear to be here?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's on the kitchen
11 counter.
12 LOU SMIT: Can you point on the diagram
13 where that is?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: It's right here. (INAUDIBLE)
15 is right there.
16 LOU SMIT: Do you have any idea how it got
17 there?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
19 LOU SMIT: Did you put it there?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not that I recall.
Have you ever wondered, if the supposed intruder used this flashlight...and thats what John is trying to say here...how the heck did he find his way out of that dark house, without running into things and waking up the Rams?
If you care to check, you will find that a light was found switched on down there.
25 LOU SMIT: By the way, that's photograph
0276
1 number 374. And that photograph was taken during
2 the crime scene investigation after the search
3 warrant was obtained. So that was after.
4 Now I have photographs 72 and 71. And these are
5 photographs taken during what we can describe as
6 the kidnapping phase, when the crime scene techs
7 were there. And that's before the body was found.
8 And I wanted to show you this. This was taken
9 earlier that morning. And I want you to take a
10 look at these photos and do you see anything out
11 of place and anything which would draw your
12 attention, or if anything is missing that you can
13 remember?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's obviously been
15 moved around some. This bag has been moved, looks
16 like.
17 MIKE KANE: Which one are you referring to?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: A purple bag with my name on
19 it.
20 MIKE KANE: From where to where?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it looks like it's been
22 moved down off the pile, because it's usually
23 here. This laundry basket doesn't show in here.
24 LOU SMIT: So it looks like something has
25 been moved between the time this picture was taken
0277
1 and this picture was taken?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like this cane
3 has been moved.
Yet again - your point is?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, in terms of the pictures,
17 this cigar box is different, certainly.
18 LOU SMIT: And what do you mean by that?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, in terms of versus the other
20 picture, it's kind of resting on its bottom here,
21 more or less. Here it's a different box.
22 LOU SMIT: So you had more than one box
23 of cigars?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember that box,
25 Romeo and Juliets. I remember this. The Cubans.
0290
1 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) the same box?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't remember that box. 3 LOU SMIT: Okay. That's it?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't. I don't. This --
He is making it quite clear that he doesn't remember that particular cigar box. Guess that the intruder must have brought that in with him too. Man, how in the world did he carry all of that stuff, and climb through a very small window?
Wow! that was worth waiting for.
He stated that he did not recognise it. By stating this, if anything, it would bring suspicion on himself, so why just not say that it belonged to him?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: -- 149, that was like
7 (INAUDIBLE) what looks like a big piece of duct
8 tape. That doesn't look like that tape I took off
9 JonBenet's mouth.
10 LOU SMIT: Okay. And why do you say that?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, because as I recall,
12 it was black. It was like a little larger than
13 electrical tape in width. And it struck me, and as
14 I thought about it later, as the kind of tape you
15 might use in sailing to wrap around the stanchion
16 or something.
17 LOU SMIT: The black tape?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
19 LOU SMIT: Have you used that type of
20 tape on (INAUDIBLE)?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I didn't recognize it.
22 But in this picture, it looks like a piece of duct
23 tape. A big piece of duct tape. And that's not
24 what I remember.
Guess the intruder (or the victims Advocate people) left this big piece of duct tape too.
Again, by stating this, he is just bringing suspicion onto himself. Why on earth would he say all that, unless he is telling the truth?
Dirty tricks at work perhaps{?}
9 MIKE KANE: This is really important.
10 That blanket, I mean, was it like there was care
11 taken? It was neatly folded?
12 JOHN RAMSEY: I thought so, yeah.
13 MIKE KANE: It wasn't like it was just
14 barely thrown over her?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it looked like somebody
16 was trying to make her comfortable, because it was
17 under her, completely under her head and brought
18 up around her, as if you would wrap a --
19 MIKE KANE: Papoose?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: -- a papoose.
I never ever realized that she was wrapped like a papoose....with the blanket under her HEAD. I had always thought that it was just around her legs. Now WHO, besides her parents...would try and make her "comfortable"?? And WHY would she be wrapped like a papoose?? Why wrap her in anything at all??
Relative, someone who was obsessed with her, like 'Sideshow Karr' was{?}
Well, its late and my eyes are getting blurry. I will post more tomorrow...until then....read through these portions of John's interview...and ponder them for awhile.
Please don't!!!!!!!!!!
Cool down a bit, Callan. No need to get rude just because other posters' perspective on this issue is different from yours.
If JAR's Christmas tree was in fact decorated with cowboy motives including rope, then the rope fond in the sack could have been left-over rope from the decoration. Ever thought of that?
Look at the rope ends.
Okay, Patsy Ramsey woke her daughter shortly after putting her to bed. She then decided to give her bowl of pineapple. No apparent for doing any of this - but there are.
Fast-forward to June 25th 1998.
Patsy Ramsey is shown a photograph of the bowl of pineapple and the first thing she comments on, is the large spoon in the bowl, indicating that it is not suitable. So why, if it was her who put it there originally, does she comment on it now?
Also VERY interesting, is exactly where the bowl of pineapple was found. It was found in a place that she called the "breakfast room" however, she stated that they would have breakfast on a "little counter" in the KITCHEN. Again, if she was the person who put it there originally, why at that time did she not go to the usual place of the kitchen?
By the way, who has been reading the National Enquirer then?
There were NO fresh pineapple found in JonBenet's stomach, ONLY a liquid substance. Something resembling pineapple was found in her intestine, but it has NEVER been officially proven.
Ames
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That's okay. I had to cut out parts of the interviews that you posted, because I had too many characters, too.
But JOHN asked PW to save out a plate for JB, and then John and Patsy both, thought it was strange that she had done so.
Me either, the experts agreed that a woman wrote the note...my guess is, he KNEW that a woman wrote the note, that's why he said this. (Using reverse psycology).
If she was taking any sort of pills at all, then this would have effected her personality. Making her do things out of character. Just so you know, I believe ST bed wetting theory. I do not believe that she would have intentionally, with malice....killed her own daughter. I believe that it was a horrible accident turned cover-up to save their own butts.
And he carried all of these things, while climbing through that little tiny basement window? Yeah, right! And not only would it have been difficult, WHY would he have done that? Why bother? He brings in his own folder, magazine, cord and tape... but....doesn't bring in a previously written ransom note?
Patsy...who,by the way... couldn't remember the last time that JB had a bath, EITHER!
This particular cigar box, was just one of the things that they had mentioned that was OUT OF PLACE, not that they didn't own. I was posting things that were out of place, here. Just about everything in that house, was either out of place, they didn't remember it, or they didn't own it. My point is, he said ths ..imo...to make it look like the "invisible intruder" knocked it off onto the floor".
Give me a link to that info. please. Never heard that one before...I know that it was dark in the basement and the WC...because John flipped on the light, when he and Fleet "found" JB...its in his interview. The intruder supposedly left the way that he came, through the window. So, if the flashlight was upstairs...how did he do that? Patsy herself said, that the basement was a place where they just threw stuff, in no particular order.....old furniture, etc. How did the intruder see to get around that "maze", if he left his flashlight upstairs? Wouldn't he have needed it once he got outside? The houses in that neighborhood, are extremely close together. (There is an arial view of the neighborhood on FFJ)...the neighbor had some dogs, that the owner said barked at everything. They even barked at one of the policemen, as he was going over to interview that neighbor. WHY didn't anyone hear any dogs barking that night? That intruder came and left, without those dogs noticing?? Wouldn't it have been SO much easier for the intruder to just have taken that flashlight with him, instead of wiping it AND the BATTERIES, down?? Why, in YOUR opinion, would an intruder wipe down the batteries anyway?...They were INSIDE the flashlight
My point is...yet again, something that it OUT OF PLACE...that the "intruder" must have moved. "OH, now that looks strange...its out of place, and THAT...its out of place too...and THAT looks like it has been moved, and I don't remember THAT, and NO that is not mine, I don't know where it came from. No, THAT looks out of place too, and that thing over there, its not mine...etc.".
No, he wants everybody to think that the "intruder" brought it in. He wasn't thinking about admitting that it belonged to him, he was too busy trying to find everything and anything that he could...to point in the direction of an "intruder".
I will give you that one....maybe he just couldn't remember the size.
Or Parent..someone that we KNOW for a fact was in the house at the time of the murder.
LOL...I did though...there was even more where these came from, you just didn't post them here. Guess it takes alot out of you when you are trying to explain away the Ramsey lies. Go and rest up...and respond to the REST of John's interview that I posted over at FFJ.
</B> Go and rest up...and respond to the REST of John's interview that I posted over at FFJ. </B>[/quote]
JMO8778
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she had the pineapple approx. 2 hrs before death...about the time they got back from the White's.
she's distancing herself from it...she KNOWS she fed JB pineapple after returning from the White's..anything suspect she can throw on the bowl or spoon helps further her cause.
It wasn't breakfast..it was a bedtime snack.Burke's fingerprints were on the tea glass,Patsy's and Burke's on the bowl,and JB was found with pineapple in her stomach,(yes,that's a proven fact...I'll get to that in a minute).They obviously all sat down at the table and had a snack after returning from the White's,where JB hadn't eaten much.
I DO NOT read the Enquirer,never have.I don't read ANY of the tabloids.That's one of the excuses IDI uses whenever they want to twist the facts around.(I'm not saying you did that intentionally here though,in regards to the pineapple).
This is from Steve Thomas (the leading detective on the case) book 'JonBenet',hardback,p.192:
Our experts studied the pineapple in the stomach and reported that it was fresh-cut pineapple,consistent right down the the rind with what had been found in the bowl.It was solid proof that it wasn't canned pineapple,and what were the chances that an intruder would have brought in a fresh pineapple to cut up for his victim?
JMO8778
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FW only wanted JR to cooperate with the police.JR got angry that he would dare have the audicity to suggest he do so...and guess what? Even when they publicly stated on CNN that they would cooperate,they then hoped right onto a plane and headed for parts unknown...
it's just like the suspects do on 'Cops'...they don't recognize anything,and nothing belongs to them,even if it's in their possession.Deny deny deny...it's a common theme.
icedtea4me
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The rope in the sack wasn't found under the bed, although I do think that it was stored there.
-Tea
Covering the face almost always indicates a very close attachment to the victim. Where was John going with this statement? Reverse psychology? Did he think it would add to the illusion a family friend was involved?
You know what. Sometimes when I re-read this stuff for the umpteenth time I get the feeling John was setting up Patsy. Was he trying to give direction to the cops to investigate Patsy? Was he covering his posterior? Was he trying to set up a friend or other family member? Was he subconsciously (or purposely) telling the cops what he actually knew? I have my doubts a lay person in John's field would even think that his dead six-year-old daughter's body was wrapped because someone wanted to make her comfortable.
BOESP,
Of course he was covering his back, thats why they had separate lawyers, he also mentioned it had to be an inside job at one point.
It could be that Patsy knew all about the abuse and that was her leverage, else why should he bother staging and covering for her, since the downside if it does not work could be at a minimum accessory to homicide?
JMO8778
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that's what I think,too.He even handed LE the notepad used to write the RN. It's like he wanted her to get caught,without him having to be the one to actually tell on her.That's what makes me think Patsy had something on him (like incest).The way she was wrapped looks like something a mother would do (think about how newborns are wrapped in the hosp. sometimes),and I think JR knew that.
And then he takes a shower,but Patsy doesn't.And Patsy and JB have on the same clothes (JB from the waist up) from the prior evening,yet JR allows her,maybe even told her,to call the White's over.
There may be other things,but rightoffhand,that's all I can think of.I do think he called for his older kids to come to Boulder in order to have them vouch for what a great dad he was.
Separate lawyers almost always imply guilt on the part of one of the suspects. Interesting that the R lawyers admitted that they never asked the Rs if they had anything to do with the crime. If they had, and if the Rs had said yes, they could still defend them, but I believe they'd have had to handle things differently.
One other thing that stands out to me is from the ransom note where the writer states "It's up to you now John" (sorry if that isn't an exact quotation - I'm about asleep and too lazy to look it up). In light of the rest of the note and other information in the public domain, it sounds like a direct challenge to John in my opinion. The outcome all rests in John's action or inaction -- he holds the ace up his sleeve as to the final outcome.
DeeDee, I agree and your explanation hits the nail on the head. The dual lawyers could create reasonable doubt until the cows came home. I suspect the lawyers and the Ramseys spent those months before their April 1997 interviews explaining culpability and reasonable doubt and how to properly squirm in your seat without being noticed.
By JR's own admission, those lawyers were hired for the specific purpose of keeping them out of jail. There was not then, nor is there now, any effort to find a killer. I don't consider tossing out the names of nearly every person they knew or worked with as an "effort" to find a killer. I think their lawyers knew then that they were representing people who either had something to do with the death of their daughter or knew who did. It is "Don't ask, don't tell" at it's worst.
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Callan,
Just so you know...Trisha,our forum owner here,is friends with the White's and won't allow any badmouthing of them here.And rightly so,IMO.The R's have obviously hurt a lot of ppl with their lies.
Where exactly was the rope found?