Which is strongest RDI evidence?

[AndHence]

John didn't even hesitate to send him away and Patsy barely even acknowledged Burke leaving the house. If he had anything to do with her murder can you really picture that?

John and Patsy: "Burke killed her but lets send him on over to Fleet's house to play Nintendo. The cops and even the FBI might go interview him while we sit here waiting for these people to find the body for six more hours but our 9 year old son would never crack in front of FBI agents with vast experience interviewing witnesses or keystone cops lucking into getting a confession. He'll make sure our house of cards never crumbles! Even if they take him down to BPD or FBI without our knowledge he wont crack under pressure. Burke knows what's best. He'll never risk the billion dollar empire. He's only in fourth grade but he's smart!"

I'm not buying it for a second. If Burke bludgeoned her, John and Patsy aren't letting him out of their sight for one nanosecond much less letting him leave the premises. There can be multiple reasons for wanting him gone and exposing him to the risk of being interrogated within the next six hours without their knowledge....being the killer is not one of them.

I've said this before...John and Patsy cannot predict that early in the morning that everything will be bungled to that extent. You don't send your 9 year old murdering son to someones house where he cant be monitored by you for hours on end.

Burke is/was very dysfunctional. That house was dysfunction junction. Burke isn't the killer. He's a victim of the dysfunction who survived.

I also realize keeping him there opens him up to questioning as well but at least you can control the flow of information if he is in your presence. They didn't give a rat's patootie about Burke that morning because they had no reason to. He wasn't in any danger from kidnappers and he wasn't going to confess to murder because he didn't do it. So get him out of there and get the show on the road.

Great post. You voice many of the concerns I have with BDI. I think if Burke was involved at all, he was whisked to bed by PR/JR thinking JonBenet was just sleeping after he'd struck her. Burke awoke being told his sister had been kidnapped and in his mind the events of the previous night are unrelated.

However, I totally agree with you that the Ramseys had a limited amount of control over the situation and couldn't predict the incompetence that would follow. Doc G's theory that it was John and only John assumes that John thought Patsy wouldn't call 911 immediately upon discovering the note and that the police would rule him out as its author. BDI theory assumes that simply sending Burke out of the house is all they had to do to protect their story. Lest we forget Burke was interviewed TWO times before John and Patsy would finally sit down with police four months later. I am fully in the RDI camp, but I feel the evidence points toward JR and PR covering for some accident touched off by possible abuse. Why else would Patsy lie about the broken window in the basement if only to corroborate John's bogus story?

 

[CorallaroC]

Today: http://www.today.com/id/33600013/ns...da-wife-faked-her-own-abduction/#.VzkvdC1zaow

Datleline video: http://www.nbcnews.com/video/dateline/55002569#55002569



I recently watched an episode of 'Ransom' on Dateline"; featured the Quinn fake abduction case.
A few comparisons to the RDI, ransom note in wife's handwriting, lengthy note, small ransom amount demanded, three Albanians.
A woman's imagination, perhaps?

Money drop arranged, but multiple attempts of money drop off unsuccessful....

~~~

WRT an elaborate kidnapping hoax - the Quinn Gray case above is certainly an interesting comparison. Couldn't read the ransom note shown on Dateline video, but it certainly looks eerily similar, plus the other coincidental aspects - the ones Tadpole mentions, plus family wealth, husband stands by her afterwards, etc.

Kinda weird, isn't it? but perhaps no more weird than the uncanny similarities to the Lindbergh case of 1932. Didn't JR and PR both publicly say they thought the killer had left behind "FUNNY LITTLE CLUES" ?? The fact that the R's even called it that many times, turns my stomach. We are twenty years out now since the murder of JBR... in today's world, things would have been done differently... but that would also include the killer(s) doing things differently to conceal the truth. Heartbreaking.

 

[Tadpole12]

Yet how many members think BR has viewed JonBenet's postmortem pictures online? Something away back in 1996 the R's could never have envisaged: an adult BR poring over those images.

Heyya UK,

No that thought had never entered my mind.
It would be hard to bear, for a family member?

 

[Tadpole12]

Great post. You voice many of the concerns I have with BDI. I think if Burke was involved at all, he was whisked to bed by PR/JR thinking JonBenet was just sleeping after he'd struck her. Burke awoke being told his sister had been kidnapped and in his mind the events of the previous night are unrelated.

However, I totally agree with you that the Ramseys had a limited amount of control over the situation and couldn't predict the incompetence that would follow. Doc G's theory that it was John and only John assumes that John thought Patsy wouldn't call 911 immediately upon discovering the note and that the police would rule him out as its author. BDI theory assumes that simply sending Burke out of the house is all they had to do to protect their story. Lest we forget Burke was interviewed TWO times before John and Patsy would finally sit down with police four months later. I am fully in the RDI camp, but I feel the evidence points toward JR and PR covering for some accident touched off by possible abuse. Why else would Patsy lie about the broken window in the basement if only to corroborate John's bogus story?

Heyya AH,

Doc G's theory that it was John and only John assumes that John thought Patsy wouldn't call 911 immediately upon discovering the note and that the police would rule him out as its author. - AH

I've always wondered....
JDI wise, is it a gamble?
Why doesn't he persuade her not to call?
He could have controlled her?

 

[AndHence]

Heyya AH,

Doc G's theory that it was John and only John assumes that John thought Patsy wouldn't call 911 immediately upon discovering the note and that the police would rule him out as its author. - AH

I've always wondered....
JDI wise, is it a gamble?
Why doesn't he persuade her not to call?
He could have controlled her?

Yeah, he was allegedly showering when she found the note. If he'd acted alone he wouldn't have risked her finding it by herself and calling the cops right away.

 

[singularity]

Very interesting, and some very valid points here. I'll have to think some more about all this. What you write here gives me pause to think and perhaps any other BDI theorists should as well. I've never said though that BR actually killed her, the autopsy is clear that the garroting did that. Do you thoughts here still apply if BR was the one who knocked her on the head, but didn't actually kill her? I would suppose "yes" would be the answer. .

Yes. There is too much on the line to let a 9 year old who just bludgeoned/murdered his six year old sister twist in the wind and simply pray he keeps his mouth shut. I really like Kolar's book. I love how he points out the oddities in the basement sequence that always perplexed me....especially when I was more of a fence sitter. The moment he starts in about Burke.....he loses me. I'd move closer to the IDI side of the fence again before taking BDI seriously and that's not going to happen. If John and Patsy were not involved in the murder but are covering for someone, IMO its more likely to be something related to John Andrew, not Burke. This isn't a dig at BDI people. UK and other BDI members here makes a lot of interesting observations on this case, as do others. I just disagree completely when it comes down to that.

I have NOT heard BR's voice on the 911 call, I'll readily admit that. IF, and ONLY IF one can prove to me that he can be heard on the 911 call asking "What did you find?", that would certainly bolster what you are espousing here, since I don't think BR would ever ask that question if he was the one who hit JBR on the head, and had an idea about what was going on/had been going on in the house. .

Yeah I had this same thought....Burke isn't going to be asking his parents rhetorical questions at 6 am whether he just woke up or has been up all night. If he's in on it or witnessed it, he KNOWS what they found and certainly knows who they are calling and why. Or is there some theory where he's playing dumb even though he has no idea his words are being recorded on the 911 call? If there is, I aint buying it. I do believe he knows a lot more than he's ever told but there's no evidence that he was involved at the level Kolar and apparently many others believe. The theory must simplify itself to sound believable. The old BDI theory was something like him strangling her with his N64 controller cord when she kicked it or whatever. Many people had difficulties swallowing that one so the modern BDI theory is that he bashes her over the head in the midst of a pineapple snack. This theory wraps it up all nice and neat and figures out a way to get that "bugaboo" pineapple clue as the key ingredient in the murder and solving the crime

. I always thought the pineapple got way too much attention. Its likely something as simple as her reaching into a bowl, grabbing a hunk and eating it while no one was paying attention. Those in the house deny feeding it to her and while the Ramseys have told many lies, I think it's possible they were genuinely surprised by hearing about the pineapple. I know most people think they simply have to stick to their story of her being asleep when they get home(and its understandable) and that's why they wont budge on the pineapple. If they do, the house of cards comes down.

When I was a kid I used to grab snacks throughout the day or wake up at night and eat something before going back to bed. I remember getting up and eating chips and dip and watching tv for a few minutes and go back to bed. Now if one of my parents or an intruder murders me later that night and no one remembers me eating this, does this mean the chips and dip are some vital clue to solving my murder or each theory needs to include it? No, it simply means that I ate some chips and dip while no one was watching me do it. Some people act like its impossible for Jonbenet to get this pineapple by herself. It would take her all of two seconds to grab a piece of that pineapple. They act like its hanging from a chandelier. The bowl is simply sitting there on the table next to a chair. Theories now have her being attacked WHILE eating it.

I definitely understand where you're coming from. I'm sure JR and PR drilled it into BR the story of "you came home, played with toys with dad, and went to bed," pretty harshly before and after the 9-1-1 call was made. That's a very simple story to stick to. Maybe they even told him that if any police officer tries to question him, to cry and try to avoid any questions. They probably weren't planning on any officers making their way to Fleet White's house. Also, if they left BR at home with them, he would have eventually been forced to see his sister's body and know, for the rest of his life (if BDI), that he did this to his little sister. I think that thought alone while looking at the body could've made him crack faster than if a police officer happened to question him at Fleet White's home. Everyone's hysteria upon eventually "finding" the body could've been too much for BR to handle, too, and I think the R parents had this in mind while planning to send him off somewhere "more safe".

At this point in the timeline, it is a kidnapping. The Ramseys know this. They know there will be FBI involvement and after the fact were shocked at how minimal that involvement wound up being. This "very simple story to stick to" for a 9 year old can easily unravel in three shakes of a lamb's tail if any FBI agents get near him. LIke I said before, the Ramseys had no idea the case would be handled as if Barney Fife were in charge. They're expecting the feds and the possibility of Burke being interviewed has to enter their minds. The FBI is going to want to talk to every single person in the house that night. They will specifically want to speak to and monitor Burke. This is a kidnapping and his sister has been abducted(at this point in time).He is potentially a target and/or may know vital information. Do you want him potentially being interviewed where you have no access to him if he killed her? Of course not. If he admits to bludgeoning her and being told to go to bed and stay in there, and of course her body is found in the wine cellar strangled and staged, John and Patsy have some splainin' to do. They're not going to risk that. Would you?

Drilled the story? If true, these people aren't very good at drilling stories into 9 year old boys. They claim she was asleep when they got home while Burke claims she walked upstairs with Patsy right behind her. THis little fact right here shows they'd never let him out of their sight or trust him to keep quiet on being involved in her murder. He cant even stick to their story on Jonbenet being asleep! Can you imagine what he'd reveal if he was actually involved?!? As far as simple stories to stick to, how much simpler can it get to just telling him to say she was asleep and Burke sticking to it? He did the exact opposite.

As far as I'm concerned, John and Patsy got a failing grade in Drilling Stories Into 9 year old boys 101.

OliviaG1996, Interesting thoughts. Implicit, I reckon, in the BBM phrase is that JR was planning ahead, he had likely decided he would have to find JonBenet. .

At the moment Burke is sent away, they cant imagine in their wildest dreams that its going to take six more hours and JOhn himself is going to have to "find" her and carry her up there.

OliviaG1996, Yet how many members think BR has viewed JonBenet's postmortem pictures online? Something away back in 1996 the R's could never have envisaged: an adult BR poring over those images. .

I think he's viewed them regardless of his role in that night's events. The photos are a simple google search away and you don't even have to google 'Jonbenet autopsy photos' to see them. You can simply google Jonbenet and some of them will show up.

Great post. You voice many of the concerns I have with BDI. I think if Burke was involved at all, he was whisked to bed by PR/JR thinking JonBenet was just sleeping after he'd struck her. Burke awoke being told his sister had been kidnapped and in his mind the events of the previous night are unrelated.

He's old enough to be able to link his bludgeoning to her kidnapping/murder hours later. Even at that age he'd know the chances that after bashing his own sister in the head during a pineapple snack and she just so happens to get kidnapped a few hours later would be a quadrillion to one. As Oscar Madison would say, no bookie would handle it... Even if he was clueless, he would pick up on other aspects of the story(his dad's severed friendship with Fleet, the staging, the general "umbrella of suspicion",etc.) and connect the dots. I don't think he cared enough to connect the dots anyways. He was too busy getting on with his life like the rest of his family.

However, I totally agree with you that the Ramseys had a limited amount of control over the situation and couldn't predict the incompetence that would follow.

Yeah....the Ramseys were not going to put their entire lives in the hands of their 9 year old son. It just doesn't fly. If Burke killed her, he would have been pratically surgically attached to Patsy and/or John and not been allowed out of whichever room one of them were in that day. The only thing that needed to be done with Burke was keep him away from that basement and out of the unfolding story.....mission accomplished. They also weren't asking for updates on Burke during the hours he is at Fleet's house while Jonbenet is "missing". They should have been doing this whether he's innocent or guilty....but they didn't. There's two reasons why they weren't asking about him or asking to speak to him to make sure he's ok.... 1. They both knew the kidnapping wasn't genuine 2. Burke didn't kill her so they didn't have to keep tabs on him

BDI theory assumes that simply sending Burke out of the house is all they had to do to protect their story. Lest we forget Burke was interviewed TWO times before John and Patsy would finally sit down with police four months later. I am fully in the RDI camp, but I feel the evidence points toward JR and PR covering for some accident touched off by possible abuse. Why else would Patsy lie about the broken window in the basement if only to corroborate John's bogus story?

Sending Burke out of the house to "protect the story" actually does the exact opposite....it risks exposing the entire story. In that scenario you have the killer outside of the "inner circle" playing his N64 at Fleet's house with the potential for him to make an infinite amount of mistakes which could place John and Patsy in handcuffs even before her body is found. IMO it simply doesn't fly.

Lest we forget Burke was interviewed TWO times before John and Patsy would finally sit down with police four months later.

Definitely didn't forget that and also didn't forget how he said she was awake when the Ramsey story is the exact opposite. Having said that, BDI would have us believe this 9 year old kid can keep the whole complex story straight, the family out of prison, and the money rolling in for John when in reality he cant even remember to say she was asleep.

Doc G's theory that it was John and only John assumes that John thought Patsy wouldn't call 911 immediately upon discovering the note and that the police would rule him out as its author.

Yeah I know of his theory and its obviously possible that John killed her but I don't buy it for a second that Patsy is innocent because she called 911. That doesn't even make sense. Plus....if JOhn had planned everything to the extent Doc believes he did, he isn't going to let Patsy stumble upon that note by herself. If he thinks Patsy is completely innocent he either has never read her interviews or needs to read them again.

TadPole, thanks for posting that link to Dateline. I'll check it out.

I've always wondered.... JDI wise, is it a gamble? Why doesn't he persuade her not to call? He could have controlled her?

They were both in on it at that point no matter who killed her so there's no need to persuade anyone about the call.

 

[Foreign Faction]

Great post, @Singularity ! Thanks for the thoughtful responses. My beliefs as a BDI theorist are definitely being tested. I try to think back to when I was a 9 year old boy and while precocious, as Burke maybe was, I am not so sure anyone that young wouldn't have broken down under the pressure if they thought, even for a little bit, that they murdered/killed/caused the death of a little sibling.

 

[rder1462]

I'm still on the fence on how much each parent was involved, but I've always thought one reason they wanted Burke out of the house was to give them freedom to lie about any and everything and to continue staging. Maybe it was partly to protect him from seeing JB, but spinning their story would be harder with a 9yo there to contradict you or ask why something had been moved.

 

[InstantProof]

I'm still on the fence on how much each parent was involved, but I've always thought one reason they wanted Burke out of the house was to give them freedom to lie about any and everything and to continue staging. Maybe it was partly to protect him from seeing JB, but spinning their story would be harder with a 9yo there to contradict you or ask why something had been moved.

I agree he may contradict or even blurt out something incriminating. Plus there would be more LE around to ask him questions. Sending him away even if he were part of the crime still makes more sense than setting up a body with a ransom note, at least- IMO.

 

[UKGuy]

Yeah, he was allegedly showering when she found the note. If he'd acted alone he wouldn't have risked her finding it by herself and calling the cops right away.

AndHence,
Of course not, its a theory that does not stand up to scrutiny, consider how telepathic the R's appeared throughout that morning, with either parent backing up the others loose version of events.

Then we find out, oops, Burke Ramsey was awake and present during the 911 call, who said so: the parents. So all three R's have colluded in a homicide, regardless of who killed JonBenet, and for circumstantial proof, consider the GJ electing to indict the parents on abuse charges.

Why would the R's write BR out of the script, why would they spirit him out of the house ASAP that morning, and if the case is BDI, certainly not to prevent him viewing a deceased JonBenet, since, as per Kolar, he would have already seen JonBenet postmortem?

.

 

[UKGuy]

. I always thought the pineapple got way too much attention. Its likely something as simple as her reaching into a bowl, grabbing a hunk and eating it while no one was paying attention. Those in the house deny feeding it to her and while the Ramseys have told many lies, I think it's possible they were genuinely surprised by hearing about the pineapple. I know most people think they simply have to stick to their story of her being asleep when they get home(and its understandable) and that's why they wont budge on the pineapple. If they do, the house of cards comes down.

When I was a kid I used to grab snacks throughout the day or wake up at night and eat something before going back to bed. I remember getting up and eating chips and dip and watching tv for a few minutes and go back to bed. Now if one of my parents or an intruder murders me later that night and no one remembers me eating this, does this mean the chips and dip are some vital clue to solving my murder or each theory needs to include it? No, it simply means that I ate some chips and dip while no one was watching me do it. Some people act like its impossible for Jonbenet to get this pineapple by herself. It would take her all of two seconds to grab a piece of that pineapple. They act like its hanging from a chandelier. The bowl is simply sitting there on the table next to a chair. Theories now have her being attacked WHILE eating it.

singularity,
The pineapple had to be fetched from the fridge. Something JonBenet could not accomplish on her own. So whether someone served it up for her, which is most likely, or she grabbed some slices as she passed by, does not matter, the conclusion is the same: JonBenet was not in her bed as per the R's version of events. Then there are her hair ties, when did these arrive, before the pineapple snack, after the snack, or postmortem, again R's version of events goes out the window?

So the pineapple is important since it tells us that JonBenet was awake, when the parents claim she was asleep. So with the parents unable to arrange the forensic evidence to match their version of events, this leaves one other person available to so do, i.e. the case is BDI!

.

 

[singularity]

AndHence,
Of course not, its a theory that does not stand up to scrutiny, consider how telepathic the R's appeared throughout that morning, with either parent backing up the others loose version of events.

Then we find out, oops, Burke Ramsey was awake and present during the 911 call, who said so: the parents. So all three R's have colluded in a homicide, regardless of who killed JonBenet, and for circumstantial proof, consider the GJ electing to indict the parents on abuse charges.
.

The lie about Burke being asleep does not have him in collusion with her murder. It is John and Patsy's fault for lying about that issue. I seriously doubt the three of them were in a huddle that night going over plans on what to say when BPD/FBI got there. Until he left that morning, he was kept in his room where he belonged. Don't want him seeing/hearing more than he has to. Him being awake and talking during the 911 call isn't some smoking gun.

Burke involved in the conspiracy? You give a 9 year old boy way too much power....something else the Ramseys, their attorneys, and Hunter would laugh at.

I don't get how Burke being awake at any point that night/morning=Burke being her killer. I bet the Ramseys, their attorneys, and Hunter always got a big chuckle out of this theory. It's a diversionary tactic/smokescreen for both sides. It steers people away from John and Patsy, it lets Hunter off the hook for his failure to indict, and keeps people a light year away from all the corruption in this case.

Hunter wouldn't indict even if John or Patsy had walked into his office and confessed. Had they known BDI would work such wonders, they themselves would have probably pushed it immediately.

I'm personally not going to give Hunter and the Ramseys the free pass they want(and got). BDI is a huge part of the foundation this free pass sits on.

Why would the R's write BR out of the script, why would they spirit him out of the house ASAP that morning,

Why write him IN the script? We've covered why they wanted him out of the house....to get the show on the road. It was also Fleet's suggestion after his first trip to the basement to get Burke out of there. Without that, the Ramseys might have been willing to just keep him in his room all day. If he stays in bed or goes to Fleet's to play his N64, it keeps him out of the unfolding chaos.

Since you believe in this collusion involving Burke, do you include Fleet in that since he suggested removing Burke from the house? If there's this BDI coverup, you're gonna have to include him since he wanted Burke out of the house.

One of many reasons BDI falls flat. It cherry picks clues that supposedly helps its cause, discards others, and then it somehow makes sense to those who believe it.

singularity,
The pineapple had to be fetched from the fridge. Something JonBenet could not accomplish on her own. So whether someone served it up for her, which is most likely, or she grabbed some slices as she passed by, does not matter, the conclusion is the same: JonBenet was not in her bed as per the R's version of events. Then there are her hair ties, when did these arrive, before the pineapple snack, after the snack, or postmortem, again R's version of events goes out the window?

So the pineapple is important since it tells us that JonBenet was awake, when the parents claim she was asleep. So with the parents unable to arrange the forensic evidence to match their version of events, this leaves one other person available to so do, i.e. the case is BDI!

.

It does matter. I don't assume the pineapple was placed on the table to feed her a snack and then bludgeon her during this snack like BDI. No one knows when that pineapple was placed on the table. It could have been placed there Christmas morning when they had breakfast or even placed there on the 23rd and simply left there. You can tell by the pictures inside the house these people did not keep it clean, even with a housekeeper. Also notice what is on the table with the pineapple...the gingerbread houses made on the 23rd and the pineapple is in a similar bowl as the others photographed at that party.

Jonbenet also had a tupperware container in her room. Did this contain pineapple? We'll never know because BPD never checked.

Did BPD do tests to see if a six year old girl can open a fridge? What's so complicated about this fridge? If it lacked a password or lock, she's the only six year old incapable of opening a fridge. If we're going to say its too high, a chair solves this problem. Even if we entertain the idea of Burke grabbing this bowl of pineapple out of the fridge and sits it on the table, this doesn't equal murder.

Yeah the pineapple definitely tells us she was awake after arriving home. So does Burke's statement. That's all the pineapple does. Its sleuthers and these BPD detectives who create elaborate theories with the pineapple a major piece of the puzzle. We've got Burke feeding it to her and then bludgeoning her while she eats it, John luring her down there with the pineapple(as if she were a dog and the pineapple a can of ALPO), Santa feeding it to her before taking her down to the basement, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some.

So with the parents unable to arrange the forensic evidence to match their version of events, this leaves one other person available to so do, i.e. the case is BDI!

So Burke killed her because the Ramseys lied and the evidence doesn't match their inconsistent story? THis is true regardless of who killed her so I don't see how it leaves one person available as her killer....especially the 9 year old.

 

[otg]

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

 

[UKGuy]

The lie about Burke being asleep does not have him in collusion with her murder. It is John and Patsy's fault for lying about that issue. I seriously doubt the three of them were in a huddle that night going over plans on what to say when BPD/FBI got there. Until he left that morning, he was kept in his room where he belonged. Don't want him seeing/hearing more than he has to. Him being awake and talking during the 911 call isn't some smoking gun.

Burke involved in the conspiracy? You give a 9 year old boy way too much power....something else the Ramseys, their attorneys, and Hunter would laugh at.

I don't get how Burke being awake at any point that night/morning=Burke being her killer. I bet the Ramseys, their attorneys, and Hunter always got a big chuckle out of this theory. It's a diversionary tactic/smokescreen for both sides. It steers people away from John and Patsy, it lets Hunter off the hook for his failure to indict, and keeps people a light year away from all the corruption in this case.

Hunter wouldn't indict even if John or Patsy had walked into his office and confessed. Had they known BDI would work such wonders, they themselves would have probably pushed it immediately.

I'm personally not going to give Hunter and the Ramseys the free pass they want(and got). BDI is a huge part of the foundation this free pass sits on.



Why write him IN the script? We've covered why they wanted him out of the house....to get the show on the road. It was also Fleet's suggestion after his first trip to the basement to get Burke out of there. Without that, the Ramseys might have been willing to just keep him in his room all day. If he stays in bed or goes to Fleet's to play his N64, it keeps him out of the unfolding chaos.

Since you believe in this collusion involving Burke, do you include Fleet in that since he suggested removing Burke from the house? If there's this BDI coverup, you're gonna have to include him since he wanted Burke out of the house.

One of many reasons BDI falls flat. It cherry picks clues that supposedly helps its cause, discards others, and then it somehow makes sense to those who believe it.

It does matter. I don't assume the pineapple was placed on the table to feed her a snack and then bludgeon her during this snack like BDI. No one knows when that pineapple was placed on the table. It could have been placed there Christmas morning when they had breakfast or even placed there on the 23rd and simply left there. You can tell by the pictures inside the house these people did not keep it clean, even with a housekeeper. Also notice what is on the table with the pineapple...the gingerbread houses made on the 23rd and the pineapple is in a similar bowl as the others photographed at that party.

Jonbenet also had a tupperware container in her room. Did this contain pineapple? We'll never know because BPD never checked.

Did BPD do tests to see if a six year old girl can open a fridge? What's so complicated about this fridge? If it lacked a password or lock, she's the only six year old incapable of opening a fridge. If we're going to say its too high, a chair solves this problem. Even if we entertain the idea of Burke grabbing this bowl of pineapple out of the fridge and sits it on the table, this doesn't equal murder.

Yeah the pineapple definitely tells us she was awake after arriving home. So does Burke's statement. That's all the pineapple does. Its sleuthers and these BPD detectives who create elaborate theories with the pineapple a major piece of the puzzle. We've got Burke feeding it to her and then bludgeoning her while she eats it, John luring her down there with the pineapple(as if she were a dog and the pineapple a can of ALPO), Santa feeding it to her before taking her down to the basement, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some.

So Burke killed her because the Ramseys lied and the evidence doesn't match their inconsistent story? THis is true regardless of who killed her so I don't see how it leaves one person available as her killer....especially the 9 year old.

singularity,

The lie about Burke being asleep does not have him in collusion with her murder.

You bet it does, particularly if the case is BDI. BR play-acted being asleep, going along with the story that he just woke up when he heard noise in the house, after the 911 call. Not to mention him repeating the parents version of events, other than his little slip saying JonBenet walked into the house, if that's not collusion, then I need a new dictionary!

It does matter. I don't assume the pineapple was placed on the table to feed her a snack and then bludgeon her during this snack like BDI. No one knows when that pineapple was placed on the table. It could have been placed there Christmas morning when they had breakfast or even placed there on the 23rd and simply left there.

mmm, you are multiplying objects beyond necessity, q.v. Occam. Otherwise known as ad-hoc explanations for straightforward evidence.

There was condensed milk in the serving bowl, if it had lain there since the morning it would have rendered the pineapple inedible.

Like I say BDI is the most consistent theory out there, by a mile.

.

 

[AndHence]

BDI needs some shoring up, though. Let's see if we can find some answers to the following questions I've been pondering.

1) Did Burke do the garroting or the just the head injury?

Most theories have Burke committing the head injury and one of the parents doing the garroting. Whoever did this did so approximately 90 minutes after the head injury. We don't know if this was done because they heard faint breathing or for staging or both. If the parents came late to the game they might have not known about the head injury at all -- there was no blood whatsoever.

2) How late in the game did Patsy and/or John discover JonBenet?

If the Ramseys discovered her body earlier in the night, say midnight, then they certainly could have cleaned up things like the pineapple bowl, Burke's soiled pants in JonBenet's room, etc. As Kolar noted in his book, the FBI felt the crime had both organized and disorganized elements to it.

3) Why did the parents let Burke out of their sight if they knew he killed her?

Burke was technically interviewed twice within the first two weeks of the crime -- the first time briefly/hastily at Fleet's house and then 10 days later by a child psychologist (the results of which were fascinating). The parents had far less control over these things than people realize. If Burke was involved and they knew it, wouldn't they want to control the flow of information and keep him by their side? I believe it was even Fleet's idea to get Burke out of the house initially, too. It is very strange that they were leaving Burke upstairs when his little sister had just been "kidnapped", but it's equally strange to let him out of their sight if they needed to ensure his silence. As we now know, Burke's grand jury testimony contradicts John and Patsy's version of events in two important areas. 1) Burke testified that JonBenet was awake and walked up the stairs behind Patsy while holding presents when they got back from the White's party and 2) Burke was awake in the morning when his parents found the note. Surely, Burke wouldn't divulge these two things if he'd been instructed not to, right?

Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts be they BDI, JDI, PDI, general RDI, or IDI. For the record, I'm RDI but haven't settled on one grand unification theory yet.

 

[Foreign Faction]

BDI needs some shoring up, though. Let's see if we can find some answers to the following questions I've been pondering.

1) Did Burke do the garroting or the just the head injury?

Most theories have Burke committing the head injury and one of the parents doing the garroting. Whoever did this did so approximately 90 minutes after the head injury. We don't know if this was done because they heard faint breathing or for staging or both. If the parents came late to the game they might have not known about the head injury at all -- there was no blood whatsoever.

2) How late in the game did Patsy and/or John discover JonBenet?

If the Ramseys discovered her body earlier in the night, say midnight, then they certainly could have cleaned up things like the pineapple bowl, Burke's soiled pants in JonBenet's room, etc. As Kolar noted in his book, the FBI felt the crime had both organized and disorganized elements to it.

3) Why did the parents let Burke out of their sight if they knew he killed her?

Burke was technically interviewed twice within the first two weeks of the crime -- the first time briefly/hastily at Fleet's house and then 10 days later by a child psychologist (the results of which were fascinating). The parents had far less control over these things than people realize. If Burke was involved and they knew it, wouldn't they want to control the flow of information and keep him by their side? I believe it was even Fleet's idea to get Burke out of the house initially, too. It is very strange that they were leaving Burke upstairs when his little sister had just been "kidnapped", but it's equally strange to let him out of their sight if they needed to ensure his silence. As we now know, Burke's grand jury testimony contradicts John and Patsy's version of events in two important areas. 1) Burke testified that JonBenet was awake and walked up the stairs behind Patsy while holding presents when they got back from the White's party and 2) Burke was awake in the morning when his parents found the note. Surely, Burke wouldn't divulge these two things if he'd been instructed not to, right?

Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts be they BDI, JDI, PDI, general RDI, or IDI. For the record, I'm RDI but haven't settled on one grand unification theory yet.

Awesome post, AndHence! As a pretty ardent BDI theorist, you enumerate maybe the three most important questions that need to be addressed, and they are all very good ones, and even harder to answer, I feel. Question #2 is perhaps one of the ones that I think about the most. I feel that either John or Patsy did the garroting, and have posted about that elsewhere in the most recent threads. Question #3 that you pose here, I personally feel that JR and PR must have drilled the fear of God into BR that saying anything about his involvement or anything related to the crime would mean he would be taken away, never have his family again, go to Hell, be put in prison forever, ad nausem to insure his silence (though to think a 9 year old could be "silenced" in this way is a bit naive, I admit).

I look forward to seeing what others may think on these three very important questions.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

I am on the fence between BDI /JDI ..Patsy was only involved in the cover up if it's BDI but not to the extent of garrotting imo.
IMHO John and only John did the garroting and then took the bath.
The scream heard is also confusing.. I believe if BDI , scream could be JBR's wheras if JDI , more likely P' s upon finding JBR dead.

I have been thinking about when and how did the white blanket end up on JBR in the winecellar ? Any thoughts?

 

[UKGuy]

BDI needs some shoring up, though. Let's see if we can find some answers to the following questions I've been pondering.

1) Did Burke do the garroting or the just the head injury?

Most theories have Burke committing the head injury and one of the parents doing the garroting. Whoever did this did so approximately 90 minutes after the head injury. We don't know if this was done because they heard faint breathing or for staging or both. If the parents came late to the game they might have not known about the head injury at all -- there was no blood whatsoever.

2) How late in the game did Patsy and/or John discover JonBenet?

If the Ramseys discovered her body earlier in the night, say midnight, then they certainly could have cleaned up things like the pineapple bowl, Burke's soiled pants in JonBenet's room, etc. As Kolar noted in his book, the FBI felt the crime had both organized and disorganized elements to it.

3) Why did the parents let Burke out of their sight if they knew he killed her?

Burke was technically interviewed twice within the first two weeks of the crime -- the first time briefly/hastily at Fleet's house and then 10 days later by a child psychologist (the results of which were fascinating). The parents had far less control over these things than people realize. If Burke was involved and they knew it, wouldn't they want to control the flow of information and keep him by their side? I believe it was even Fleet's idea to get Burke out of the house initially, too. It is very strange that they were leaving Burke upstairs when his little sister had just been "kidnapped", but it's equally strange to let him out of their sight if they needed to ensure his silence. As we now know, Burke's grand jury testimony contradicts John and Patsy's version of events in two important areas. 1) Burke testified that JonBenet was awake and walked up the stairs behind Patsy while holding presents when they got back from the White's party and 2) Burke was awake in the morning when his parents found the note. Surely, Burke wouldn't divulge these two things if he'd been instructed not to, right?

Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts be they BDI, JDI, PDI, general RDI, or IDI. For the record, I'm RDI but haven't settled on one grand unification theory yet.

AndHence,

1) Did Burke do the garroting or the just the head injury?

A theory has to start somewhere, so I'll propose Burke did it all. Sexual assault, head injury and asphyxiation.

If the parents came late to the game they might have not known about the head injury at all -- there was no blood whatsoever.

JonBenet may have been bleeding from her nose or mouth due to the head injury.

The period between the head injury and asphyxiation may have been taken up with assumed ritualistic postmortem behavior?

2) How late in the game did Patsy and/or John discover JonBenet?

Patently after JonBenet had been asphyxiated, cleaned up and partially redressed, e.g. size-12's. i.e. too late to save her or dial for medical assistance?

JonBenet was probably wearing either her pink pajama bottoms or the pink barbie nightgown, either was substituted with the longjohns.

Speculating, JonBenet's pink pajama bottoms and size-6 underwear are missing precisely because they were forensically contaminated. The pink barbie nightgown may have been removed due to the bloodstain?

There are lots of little details which we now know are relevant but the parents on that night did not, e.g. BR's pajama bottoms in JonBenet's bedroom, feces deposited in JonBenet's bedroom, pineapple snack, size-12's, etc. The parents did not know because they were not involved, and BR likely had a cover story which the parents knew was nonsense?

If the parents had been aware they would have attempted to match the forensic evidence to their version of events, possibly even running JonBenet's clothing through the washing machine and spin dryer, who would have known otherwise, they had all night to accomplish this?

So BR may have done it all, with the parents fabricating JonBenet's person as a victim of an intruder homicide? JR might simply have wiped JonBenet down, q.v. Coroner Meyer's verbatim remarks, pulling the size-12's back up? Patsy may have added the paintbrush handle in an attempt to make the asphyxiation appear less naive, at this point JonBenet is dead.

3) Why did the parents let Burke out of their sight if they knew he killed her?

They probably thought they would both be arrested and wanted to avoid losing control over BR. JR assumed if BR was not present at the house he could not be interviewed, i.e. no difficult questions.


.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

If both parents were involved in the cover up , don't you think that its's extremely weird that P's clothing fiber were all over JB and the items linked to the murder however she didn't need to change her clothing/ wear some other outfit but John was the one extremely cautious with no finger prints and fibers and the one taking bath and having fresh outfit. Maybe P clothing fibers were planted by John as well.

 

[UKGuy]

If both parents were involved in the cover up , don't you think that its's extremely weird that P's clothing fiber were all over JB and the items linked to the murder however she didn't need to change her clothing/ wear some other outfit but John was the one extremely cautious with no finger prints and fibers and the one taking bath and having fresh outfit. Maybe P clothing fibers were planted by John as well.

MURDERER_SERVANT,
Fibers from JR's Israeli manufactured shirt were allegedly found inside the size-12's. Fibers from PR's were found embedded in the knotting of the ligature/paintbrush device, so apparently both parents were involved in the staging.

.