Which is strongest RDI evidence?

[singularity]

singularity,

mmm, you are multiplying objects beyond necessity, q.v. Occam. Otherwise known as ad-hoc explanations for straightforward evidence.
.

No I'm not. Nobody knows when that pineapple was placed there. That's why they were asked these questions and its still open to debate 20 years later.

Much better to wonder when it might have been placed there then just immediately assume Burke grabbed it out of the fridge right before bashing her head in when she takes a bite.

There was condensed milk in the serving bowl, if it had lain there since the morning it would have rendered the pineapple inedible.

.

Can you remind me the source of this info? While I read a lot of books, interviews,etc. this year I don't remember the source of this. Kolar or is this one of those forum speculations that morphed into fact over the years? I'm not asking you to dig through books, look up a page number, or link to a specific excerpt in a transcript. I just want to know where the cream in the bowl was confirmed.

You mentioned in a recent post how your memory isn't what it used to be. Mine isn't either so even if I read this during my recent refresher course on the case, this detail already slipped my mind.

singularity,
Like I say BDI is the most consistent theory out there, by a mile.
.

Not even close IMO but now that you mentioned on this page that you think her nine year old brother did everything, I can now understand why you say this.

You mentioned before posting your whole theory on the case. Obviously I know you are BDI all the way now but can you link me to your post that contains your detailed theory? I'd like to read it. I don't want to scroll through your 7k posts looking for it. That would take days or even weeks.

I'll ask again.....where does Fleet fit in to your Burke conspiracy? He suggested his removal from the house. Since you believe in this collusion/conspiracy to protect Burke, you're going to need to factor him in or is Fleet's request to remove Burke being chalked up to a virtual lottery win or do BDI people simply ignore it because it doesn't fit in so easily into the conspiracy? Since this question was ignored by the BDI members in this thread the first time I asked it I'll assume the latter. Maybe you specifically take this into account in your theory which is another reason I'd like to read it. Not going to ask you to write out a long post on your theory since you've already posted it before.

They probably thought they would both be arrested and wanted to avoid losing control over BR

So to avoid losing control over Burke they allow him to leave the house and lose control of him.

BDI needs some shoring up, though

It needs a LOT of shoring up.

 

[AndHence]

The Israeli fibers from John's shirt are interesting but as with all the fiber evidence, it's hard to determine how strong it is. The BPD never had to present the evidence and some IDI feel they just dropped this into interviews to see how the parents would respond (i.e., would they confess or turn on each other). Personally I feel the fiber evidence was legitimate since it appeared in both Thomas and Kolar's books years apart and they were never sued over it. Thoughts?

 

[InstantProof]

3) Why did the parents let Burke out of their sight if they knew he killed her?

IMO if BDI he may have ran straight to bed after the incident to sleep or pretend to sleep. In the morning B hears parents calling 911, there's a letter, JB is missing.... he would be relieved to be off the hook and would have no reason to tell anyone otherwise.

 

[apabld]

I like to keep an open mind on all the possible theories, whether it be BDI, JDI, PDI or IDI (unlikely, I know, though there is the chance that the intruder was just extremely good at hiding their steps). I have to admit though that the BDI theory (with JR and/or PR covering up) seems to be the one which fits the evidence and facts best. Of course, even though it's the most likely theory, it doesn't mean the other theories don't hold at all. There are a few things that make BDI unlikely and I've listed them below. Of course, none of these things completely disprove the theory.

- While not impossible, I find it hard to believe a 9 year old would have enough strength to do so much damage to the skull of his younger sister. If the murder happened in the early hours of the morning, this would be the time when a child would be the most tired, especially after a long day of visiting family friends. It's possible (though I'm sure extremely unlikely) that JB wasn't hit but just fell onto something hard at a high speed while playing with her brother.

- Burke being sent away implies to me that he wasn't involved. If his parents knew he was involved, then they would know that sending him away would make Burke more suspicious. Keeping him close would be a far better way of making sure he didn't say anything discriminating.

- Burke did an interview 2 weeks after the murder, while his parents waited for 4 months. If JR and/or PR knew he was involved, wouldn't they have prevented Burke from being interviewed so soon? The results of the interview does highly fascinate me though.

- So far, Burke seems to be well-adjusted and living a normal life. While not completely impossible, I would assume it would be extremely difficult for someone (especially a child) to have killed their sister and not act out or spill anything.

- The fact that Burke has refused to be interviewed and has kept a low profile isn't as suspicious to me as it is to some others. I think his parents were adamant that he should try to live a normal life and not worry about this whole case. Maybe he really doesn't know anything - in which case, he would not be able to provide any additional information that is already known.

 

[UKGuy]

The Israeli fibers from John's shirt are interesting but as with all the fiber evidence, it's hard to determine how strong it is. The BPD never had to present the evidence and some IDI feel they just dropped this into interviews to see how the parents would respond (i.e., would they confess or turn on each other). Personally I feel the fiber evidence was legitimate since it appeared in both Thomas and Kolar's books years apart and they were never sued over it. Thoughts?

AndHence,
By citing the alleged fiber evidence BDI were offering the R camp a counter-example if it ever went to trial, i.e. you asked my client about X during the interview, yet X is non-existent, why did you do this, do you not believe in the innocence of my client, do you have an agenda, are there any other areas in this case where you have manufactured evidence to ruin my clients reputation, etc, etc?

Normally in a homicide finding forensic evidence belonging to a particular individual is a smoking gun, but due to staging, in JonBenet's case we have to disentangle primary forensic evidence from that which potentially arrived later.

On litigation the R's knew any legal approach might cement the fibers as originating from JR as fact, so they elected to ignore any published comment using the fibers as supposed fact.

.

 

[UKGuy]

No I'm not. Nobody knows when that pineapple was placed there. That's why they were asked these questions and its still open to debate 20 years later.

Much better to wonder when it might have been placed there then just immediately assume Burke grabbed it out of the fridge right before bashing her head in when she takes a bite.

Can you remind me the source of this info? While I read a lot of books, interviews,etc. this year I don't remember the source of this. Kolar or is this one of those forum speculations that morphed into fact over the years? I'm not asking you to dig through books, look up a page number, or link to a specific excerpt in a transcript. I just want to know where the cream in the bowl was confirmed.

You mentioned in a recent post how your memory isn't what it used to be. Mine isn't either so even if I read this during my recent refresher course on the case, this detail already slipped my mind.


Not even close IMO but now that you mentioned on this page that you think her nine year old brother did everything, I can now understand why you say this.

You mentioned before posting your whole theory on the case. Obviously I know you are BDI all the way now but can you link me to your post that contains your detailed theory? I'd like to read it. I don't want to scroll through your 7k posts looking for it. That would take days or even weeks.

I'll ask again.....where does Fleet fit in to your Burke conspiracy? He suggested his removal from the house. Since you believe in this collusion/conspiracy to protect Burke, you're going to need to factor him in or is Fleet's request to remove Burke being chalked up to a virtual lottery win or do BDI people simply ignore it because it doesn't fit in so easily into the conspiracy? Since this question was ignored by the BDI members in this thread the first time I asked it I'll assume the latter. Maybe you specifically take this into account in your theory which is another reason I'd like to read it. Not going to ask you to write out a long post on your theory since you've already posted it before.

So to avoid losing control over Burke they allow him to leave the house and lose control of him.

It needs a LOT of shoring up.

singularity,

I'll ask again.....where does Fleet fit in to your Burke conspiracy?

Well its more a Ramsey conspiracy, its not like Burke enlisted Fleet White's support, so to leave the house, maybe he did?

Fleet White is a passer by in the JonBenet case, someone used by the R's to enact their staging, its that simple. As such JonBenet participants are not devoid of sympathy and might extend a helping hand, this is probably how Fleet White read the situation, maybe JR dropped off the cuff hints regarding BR, who knows, apparently Fleet White even made up BR's bed.

Basically, for whatever reason the R's felt, given the current circumstances that BR would be better off with Fleet White than left to the lottery of a homicide investigation?

Fleet White's account of the forensic evidence differs from that of JR, e.g. wine-cellar contents, along with JR offering explanations to explain away other basement phenomena, this is important, since it might suggest JR moved JonBenet into the wine-cellar?

.

 

[AndHence]

I always wonder what was going through John's mind when Fleet White made his first trip to the basement shortly upon arrival. He was the only one who called out JonBenet's name that day. Presumably he was told about or saw the ransom note before he went down to the basement but this didn't deter him from thinking JonBenet might still be in the house. John probably assumed Fleet or the police would find her right away.

 

[questfortrue]

BDI needs some shoring up, though. Let's see if we can find some answers to the following questions I've been pondering.

1) Did Burke do the garroting or the just the head injury?
Most theories have Burke committing the head injury and one of the parents doing the garroting. Whoever did this did so approximately 90 minutes after the head injury. We don't know if this was done because they heard faint breathing or for staging or both. If the parents came late to the game they might have not known about the head injury at all -- there was no blood whatsoever.

2) How late in the game did Patsy and/or John discover JonBenet?

If the Ramseys discovered her body earlier in the night, say midnight, then they certainly could have cleaned up things like the pineapple bowl, Burke's soiled pants in JonBenet's room, etc. As Kolar noted in his book, the FBI felt the crime had both organized and disorganized elements to it.

3) Why did the parents let Burke out of their sight if they knew he killed her?

Burke was technically interviewed twice within the first two weeks of the crime -- the first time briefly/hastily at Fleet's house and then 10 days later by a child psychologist (the results of which were fascinating). The parents had far less control over these things than people realize. If Burke was involved and they knew it, wouldn't they want to control the flow of information and keep him by their side? I believe it was even Fleet's idea to get Burke out of the house initially, too. It is very strange that they were leaving Burke upstairs when his little sister had just been "kidnapped", but it's equally strange to let him out of their sight if they needed to ensure his silence. As we now know, Burke's grand jury testimony contradicts John and Patsy's version of events in two important areas. 1) Burke testified that JonBenet was awake and walked up the stairs behind Patsy while holding presents when they got back from the White's party and 2) Burke was awake in the morning when his parents found the note. Surely, Burke wouldn't divulge these two things if he'd been instructed not to, right?

Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts be they BDI, JDI, PDI, general RDI, or IDI. For the record, I'm RDI but haven't settled on one grand unification theory yet.

~RBBM~
I’m going to set aside who strangled her, because any of them are good for it. By breaking down the actions outside the wc, it may provide a better idea of the determination of the person who did this. I know I might not have this sequenced perfectly, but it’s simply to illustrate the steps taken before she’s asphyxiated.

-She’s placed on her back by the wc. She’s unconscious. Perhaps she’s turned over, jabbed with a train track on her back, to see if she’ll awaken or respond in some manner, then placed on her back. Her legging/long-johns have been pulled off. (Conceivably her size six underwear/Bloomies have disappeared at some point.) She’s jabbed with a paint brush, blood wiped, size 12-14 Bloomies placed on her, leggings pulled back up. (I posit she is wiped down before being redressed in the 12-14 Bloomies, because there was no blood which seeped into the leggings and only two small droplets in her Bloomies.) She’s then placed on her stomach where the ligature is fashioned around her neck, catching her hair. This person did think to pull the long chain necklace back behind her neck though it still caught in the ligature cord. Also, he/she knows to wear what could be considered garden or work gloves in order to mask any traces of skin left on the ligature.The ligature is then pulled tight either by grasping the cord itself or by winding the cord around part of a stick and pulling on the stick for leverage. At the point of death additional urine is released. Then she’s turned over, wrapped in a blanket and carried (not dragged) into the wc. During this move a couple droplets of blood fall onto the crotch of the large Bloomies.

These are only possible assumptions in a BR did it all scenario; I know there are other well thought-out assumptions in a BR theory.
#1: Assuming for the discussion BR struck her, if he is responsible for the paintbrush injury, then he’s also likely involved with the asphyxiation.
#2: If BR actively did the asphyxiation, it seems to cast him into the role of a cold-blooded murderer, the head blow was intended to kill her and when that didn’t accomplish the homicide, he applied the ligature.

 

[Foreign Faction]

One of my biggest questions that, as a BDI theorist, makes me less likely to believe that BR did it all is that how could JR/PR do the staging, and everything else after to protect their son if they knew he had committed this most heinous and stomach-turning atrocity upon their darling daughter. I do not care about the parental bond to protect what, if you are to believe Burke did the garrotting and head injury, would amount to a monster. Not to mention to put themselves at risk of jail for capital murder for something they had absolutely nothing to do with originally. As a parent, and a psychologist, I fully understand the implications, but I just CANNOT accept that they would cover for, care for, and protect the son who would have done all of these terrible, terrible things.

All this leads me to believe that while BR was responsible in some way (either hitting, whacking, or causing JBR to injure her head), the strangulation was done by either JR or PR.

 

[UKGuy]

One of my biggest questions that, as a BDI theorist, makes me less likely to believe that BR did it all is that how could JR/PR do the staging, and everything else after to protect their son if they knew he had committed this most heinous and stomach-turning atrocity upon their darling daughter. I do not care about the parental bond to protect what, if you are to believe Burke did the garrotting and head injury, would amount to a monster. Not to mention to put themselves at risk of jail for capital murder for something they had absolutely nothing to do with originally. As a parent, and a psychologist, I fully understand the implications, but I just CANNOT accept that they would cover for, care for, and protect the son who would have done all of these terrible, terrible things.

All this leads me to believe that while BR was responsible in some way (either hitting, whacking, or causing JBR to injure her head), the strangulation was done by either JR or PR.

Foreign Faction,
Ah, but, there is always a but: the parents would not have known what we know. So they might have been totally unaware as regards the head injury, which possibly only one person knew about prior to the autopsy.

WRT to the sexual assault, JonBenet was patently cleaned up and redressed in the size-12's, something I doubt JR would do, i.e. even he could see how inappropriate they were size wise, and Patsy well she definitely was out of the loop on this subject. So the parents might have been unaware of the sexual assault, or at least its severity? Think long johns here.

Only JonBenet's asphyxiation would have left visible marks, e.g. on her neck. Disregarding questions about any manual asphyxiation, the paintbrush was applied as staging, to mask what had already taken place. So if there had been a manual strangulation, its now accounted for by use of the garrote.

So the parents might have been presented with a dead JonBenet, where and when is another subject, but BR possibly revealed it as a fait accompli ?

Consider another perspective the parents arrive just after the head blow, but they do not know about it, they just have a lifeless JonBenet in front of them, what do they do?

Dial for medical assistance, they should do, so why did they not, patently they arrived after the asphyxiation, i.e. its a done deal and calling 911 will not help?

Also if the parents had arrived early in the time-line they would have made the staging more comprehensive, that it looks piecemeal also suggests they arrived later?

Then there is my favorite example: the washing machine and tumble dryer, just toss all the nasty forensically contaminated clothing into the washing machine, with lots of biological powder, then tumble dry, and place back in JonBenet's drawers, who would know otherwise?

Neither parent was aware of the pineapple snack, since they failed to incorporate it into their version of events, i.e. surely one parent would recognize there would be residue in JonBenet's stomach?

Then there are the size-12's, one large red flag, that Patsy knew nothing about, but invented a legend to cover for the person who redressed JonBenet, making the mistake, I put the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer, oops not according to BPD, only size-6 underwear was found in the drawer. This is the opposite mistake to that of the pineapple snack, one is by omission and the other direct commission.

So you have the parents reacting to events and dealing with forensic evidence they are ignorant about, this does not suggest to me that either JR or PR were JonBenet's initial assailant?

Its even possible, yet another scenario, the the parents discovered JonBenet unconscious, naked from the waist down, bleeding internally, with a ligature round her neck? They then clean her up, JR adds the size-12's and long johns, Patsy fashions the garrote by adding the paintbrush and tightening it around JonBenet's neck, with the knotting?

The parents in both of the above scenarios would think we have to deal with the asphyxiation and in the latter the internal bleeding, maybe thats where the missing piece of the paintbrush was left, so it was staged as some kind of intruder sexual homicide, which I think later morphed into a kidnapping?

.

 

[AndHence]

Some salient points, UKGuy. One thing we must remember is that the paint brush abuse was believed to have occurred at the point of death. If we posit that this was done to hide prior abuse, it had to be someone with knowledge of that prior abuse -- not necessarily the person committing the prior abuse. In a related issue, the redressing into the size-12's was likely done to get rid of the forensic evidence in her size 6's. Burke's touch DNA was never found on the size 12's. It is likely she was redressed by the same person who wiped her down and that gloves were worn at this late stage in the cover-up.

 

[Tadpole12]

One of my biggest questions that, as a BDI theorist, makes me less likely to believe that BR did it all is that how could JR/PR do the staging, and everything else after to protect their son if they knew he had committed this most heinous and stomach-turning atrocity upon their darling daughter. I do not care about the parental bond to protect what, if you are to believe Burke did the garrotting and head injury, would amount to a monster. Not to mention to put themselves at risk of jail for capital murder for something they had absolutely nothing to do with originally. As a parent, and a psychologist, I fully understand the implications, but I just CANNOT accept that they would cover for, care for, and protect the son who would have done all of these terrible, terrible things.

All this leads me to believe that while BR was responsible in some way (either hitting, whacking, or causing JBR to injure her head), the strangulation was done by either JR or PR.

As a parent, and a psychologist, I fully understand the implications, but I just CANNOT accept that they would cover for, care for, and protect the son who would have done all of these terrible, terrible things.-ff

Heyya ff.
Could that not be a possibility if the parents had a personality disorder?

ff, are you a verified expert?
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...n-Process-for-Professional-or-Insider-Posters

 

[Foreign Faction]

Thank you, UKGuy, as I understand what you write, do you suggest that JR/PR may have known nothing about the head injury most likely inflicted by BR? That is, until after the autopsy report came out.

I would assume also by your post, that you believe the Ramseys had prior knowledge of BR sexually abusing JBR (which I happen to believe also).

In your theory, then, PR/JR banded together to protect their son, regardless of the atrocity he committed, perhaps in part because of the guilt they both may have felt for allowing this prior abuse to happen in the first place/not doing enough about it?

 

[Foreign Faction]

As a parent, and a psychologist, I fully understand the implications, but I just CANNOT accept that they would cover for, care for, and protect the son who would have done all of these terrible, terrible things.-ff

Heyya ff.
Could that not be a possibility if the parents had a personality disorder?

ff, are you a verified expert?
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...n-Process-for-Professional-or-Insider-Posters

Hi Tadpole, it could be possible, yes. What type of personality disorder do you think one or both parents had/have?

No, I'm not a verified expert, I don't think my university would care for me trolling a forum about a macabre murder case almost 20 years old lol.

 

[Tadpole12]

Heyy UK,

wrt BR scenario,
the burnt/melted end of the rope, do you think that BR had access to a lighter?(in cigar box?)
or that that rope had been dead ended at an earlier time?

re Kolar:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...et-Ramsey-Investigation&p=8188425#post8188425

 

[Tadpole12]

Okay, well I'm no expert.
It's often been suggested that PR had a narcissistic personality disorder.
Some of the inclusions in DOI wrt to PR predictive insights and religious fervor
make an odd impression.

 

[otg]

I always wonder what was going through John's mind when Fleet White made his first trip to the basement shortly upon arrival. He was the only one who called out JonBenet's name that day. Presumably he was told about or saw the ransom note before he went down to the basement but this didn't deter him from thinking JonBenet might still be in the house. John probably assumed Fleet or the police would find her right away.

John Ramsey didn't know that Fleet White had gone to the basement on his own until his 1997 interview when he was being questioned about when he (JR) went down there alone:

STEVE THOMAS: "And Fleet had talked earlier about being down there, I think alone at one point, and discovering that window. When you say that you found it earlier that day and latched it, at what time of the day was that?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "I don't know. I mean it would have been probably, probably before 10 o'clock. "

STEVE THOMAS: "Was that prior to Fleet's first trip down?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "I didn't know he was in the basement. I didn't know that. I mean other than that trip with me."

STEVE THOMAS: "And on that trip that you latched the window, were you alone when you went down and latched the window?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "Yep."


​

White (according to PMPT) told police that he had gone down to the basement alone within minutes of his arrival that morning. John was probably distracted with Patsy at the time White was speaking with detectives by the way Schiller describes the scene.

 

[UKGuy]

Some salient points, UKGuy. One thing we must remember is that the paint brush abuse was believed to have occurred at the point of death. If we posit that this was done to hide prior abuse, it had to be someone with knowledge of that prior abuse -- not necessarily the person committing the prior abuse. In a related issue, the redressing into the size-12's was likely done to get rid of the forensic evidence in her size 6's. Burke's touch DNA was never found on the size 12's. It is likely she was redressed by the same person who wiped her down and that gloves were worn at this late stage in the cover-up.

AndHence,

the paint brush abuse was believed to have occurred at the point of death.

Maybe, thats if there was paintbrush abuse, some think it was staging to create a bogus sexually motivated homicide?

Burke's touch DNA was never found on the size 12's

Really, do you have reference for this fact?

.

 

[Annapurna]

I just can't get behind the theory that BR changed her into the size 12's. I do see some of your points about PR's flimsy stort wrt the 12's. This leads me to believe it is more likely JR changed her.

9/10 y.o.s might not even think to change their own underwear if not reminded, let alone their sisters, let alone to hide what they have done. A child (and no matter how brilliant anyone tries to say he is, he was still a child) does not think the same way an adult does. He may not have thought of the full implications of his actions even if he know he would get in trouble if caught. There is a big difference between "mom said not to do this" and "i am a rapist". He may have just pulled up her bottoms, (whatever they were when she was molested) I would buy that. That could be hiding his shameful act without all the difficulty and steps required in changing her into clean panties. Not to mention she was wiped down (as evidenced by the AR's findings) which adds several more steps.

One would have to 1) find a cloth to clean her off with. 2) wipe her down 3) find the clean panties 4) pull off her soiled bottoms 5) thread the new panties onto her limp legs 6) thread her legs into the longjohns (harder than it seems, especially for a child unaccustomed to doing it). These are not insignificant in terms of difficulty. I assert it would be far more likely that a child would either quickly pull up her bottoms and run away if he feared punishment or simply run away all together.

Now when I go through this same scenario with JR doing the actions, it makes sense. He is careful and deliberate. He would think to hide the evidence better. Then there is the possible fiber evidence (its no smoking gun, but it does make me wonder).

I think all 3 R's were involved. PR may have initially found the body, run to get JR and then helped find supplies (clean 12's, cord). JR gets to work after he sends PR to write a note, then he goes to take a shower to remove any evidence.

____

p.s. hello everyone! I haven't been by in a while, glad to see the discussion is going strong.