Which is strongest RDI evidence?

[UKGuy]

I ran across something recently while looking for something else. It just struck me as, well... read it for yourselves and see what you think. It’s a transcript of the Larry King show from March 30, 2000:

KING: (sbm) Greta Van Susteren, who was on our show -- you saw her on Tuesday night -- called in with a couple of questions. I'll relay them to you.

Under Colorado law, is it possible that a grand jury could indict and a prosecutor not file?

HUNTER: Yes, because there has to be -- there has to be joint action. So the prosecutor's to sign off.

KING: So you have to...

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: But you know, I'm not going -- and Greta knows this -- I'm not going to talk about what the grand jury did or didn't do.

KING: No, the question was only...

HUNTER: Yes.

KING: ... is it possible that they could indict and a district attorney says, it's not -- despite the fact...

HUNTER: The district attorney has got to sign it.

KING: Just as a judge could throw a case out.

HUNTER: Right.
​

Seems like Greta Van Susteren had some reason in 2000 to suspect what Hunter had done with the RGJ’s indictment. Hunter did his best to sidestep going into detail and actually answering the question. Hiding behind the cloak of GJ secrecy, he tried to say he couldn’t talk about it, but he did finally answer the question as a generality that no one paid much attention to back when this was going on.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0003/30/lkl.00.html

otg,
Very nice find. Why does Hunter need to sidestep any questions he is the prosecuter? Note he was not being asked specifically about the JonBenet case, simply about procedure regarding true bill filing etc, I like how he generalises and says the DA has to sign it, i.e. asserting the positive but evading the actual question, was Hunter suggesting I need to sign it for no indictment?


.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Their actions and words are the strongest evidence against them. Yes, I agree. From the beginning, they have covered up, I believe for something their son did that night. They would have been much better off if they would have called 911 and let it go from there. There would have been an article in paper or on news, but would soon die down. They kept it going by being on tv constantly, declaring their innocence. Burke, if he is guilty,would have gotten help, no jail time. Yes, it would be a scandal on the family. But as it is,the scandal is worldwide. I don't believe, for a minute, that it would be in public's eye for almost 20 years.

If the Ramseys had confessed that Burke killed JonBenet, everyone in Boulder would know about it, all their family members, friends, neighbors, co-workers, pageant people, etc would know that their 9-year-old son killed their 6-year-old daughter. Considering that John was a CEO in the community, it's not unrealistic to think the local media would take some interest in the case. They could move, but what if some concerned parent from Boulder warns parents that a 9-year-old killer is coming to live in their communiy?

I think the Ramseys really thought that the country would buy their story. If they were worried about Burke killing JonBenet getting media attention, they wouldn't claim an intruder killed their daughter, left a ransom note, and go on national TV. I also think they have no regrets about going with the story they chose. Maybe they wish they hadn't left a practice note, or something like that, but I don't think they are annoyed by the attention in the last twenty years. Shortly before she died, ten years later, Patsy got an all-expenses paid trip to Hawaii to speak on some religious program about how she dealt with JonBenet's murder. The Ramseys got to retire earlier, they were still able to afford private school for Burke, private plane, vacations, multiple homes, etc, they have never said that Burke was treated badly at Lovett or Purdue, they've said in interviews that people they met were absolutely wonderful to them, they seemed to stay close with their family, etc.

So I don't think neither John or Patsy wished that they had just called and confessed that their son killed their daughter in the first days of the case.

ETA: I also think the Ramseys had zero idea how the country would react to the pageant pictures, how that would influence public opinion against them, play a significiant role in the amount of coverage, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if on 12/25-26, when deciding what the best course of action to take would, they never even considered the pageants.

 

[otg]

otg,
Very nice find. Why does Hunter need to sidestep any questions he is the prosecuter? Note he was not being asked specifically about the JonBenet case, simply about procedure regarding true bill filing etc, I like how he generalises and says the DA has to sign it, i.e. asserting the positive but evading the actual question, was Hunter suggesting I need to sign it for no indictment?

I think he simply didn't want anyone to know that that (his not signing it) is what he did. I think he was surprised that Van Susteren would question it, and I'll bet (since I haven't seen a video clip of it) he was sweating bullets about what she knew that made her ask the question. Everywhere else in the media, they were assuming that the Grand Jury had failed to return a True Bill because of the wording in Hunter's statement.

 

[UKGuy]

I think he simply didn't want anyone to know that that (his not signing it) is what he did. I think he was surprised that Van Susteren would question it, and I'll bet (since I haven't seen a video clip of it) he was sweating bullets about what she knew that made her ask the question. Everywhere else in the media, they were assuming that the Grand Jury had failed to return a True Bill because of the wording in Hunter's statement.

otg,
I'm certain you are correct.

KING: ... is it possible that they could indict and a district attorney says, it's not -- despite the fact...

She is asking what happens when the DA refuses to indict?

HUNTER: The district attorney has got to sign it.

He says he has to sign it.

KING: Just as a judge could throw a case out.

She asks like a Judge tossing a case?

HUNTER: Right.

Hunter affirms the last question.

Of course she she should have come back and asked: what happens if its not signed?

.

 

[questfortrue]

If the Ramseys had confessed that Burke killed JonBenet, everyone in Boulder would know about it, all their family members, friends, neighbors, co-workers, pageant people, etc would know that their 9-year-old son killed their 6-year-old daughter. Considering that John was a CEO in the community, it's not unrealistic to think the local media would take some interest in the case. They could move, but what if some concerned parent from Boulder warns parents that a 9-year-old killer is coming to live in their communiy?

I think the Ramseys really thought that the country would buy their story. If they were worried about Burke killing JonBenet getting media attention, they wouldn't claim an intruder killed their daughter, left a ransom note, and go on national TV. I also think they have no regrets about going with the story they chose. Maybe they wish they hadn't left a practice note, or something like that, but I don't think they are annoyed by the attention in the last twenty years. Shortly before she died, ten years later, Patsy got an all-expenses paid trip to Hawaii to speak on some religious program about how she dealt with JonBenet's murder. The Ramseys got to retire earlier, they were still able to afford private school for Burke, private plane, vacations, multiple homes, etc, they have never said that Burke was treated badly at Lovett or Purdue, they've said in interviews that people they met were absolutely wonderful to them, they seemed to stay close with their family, etc.

So I don't think neither John or Patsy wished that they had just called and confessed that their son killed their daughter in the first days of the case.

ETA: I also think the Ramseys had zero idea how the country would react to the pageant pictures, how that would influence public opinion against them, play a significiant role in the amount of coverage, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if on 12/25-26, when deciding what the best course of action to take would, they never even considered the pageants.

:goodpost:

Imo, they never regretted for one minute the steps they took to keep themselves out of jail, and BR out of the range of any CPS investigation.

From Journey Beyond Reason - As an Assistant DA assigned to the Ramsey investigation, Keenan expressed her belief that an intruder killed JonBenet and focused her efforts on the Ramseys’ neighbor, Bill McReynolds. Since her election to office, District Attorney Keenan has not involved herself in this case. She has not forwarded any actions involving anything Ramsey to Assistant DA Bill Nagle. Dissatisfied because the police evidence led to them, the Rs’ lawyer LW threatened to sue the Boulder Police Department and the City of Boulder if Keenen (ML) did not remove the investigation from police hands.

According to LW, PR and JR wanted the case solved and were prepared to sue to have the case removed from the BPD. Cue in ML.

Years later in 2006 John Ramsey says to Reverend Wayne Cordeira on Connecting Point, that the appointment of a new prosecutor -- Mary Keenan, who now goes by her married name of Mary Lacy -- was the answer to the couple's prayers for justice. And (imo, A Little Twist of the Knife, coup de grace) - “Ramsey said he has forgiven the Boulder police and people in the news media for the suspicion that was cast upon them after his daughter's killing. “

 

[LadyTudorRose]

Even if it was BDI, I still think there was probably some abuse going on in that family toward JB and/or BR from the parents or another relative. There is a lot of smoke that points to a fire. IMHO if it was BDI there was a pact of sorts made between BR and JR/PR that they would keep each other's secrets. BR, as he got older, would not want his friends and then potential romantic partners knowing he killed his sister, and obviously his parents would want him to keep quiet about any abuse that went on against him and JB.

I mean, even knowing he was nine when it happened, would anyone date someone who killed and molested their little sister? Would you let your daughter date that person?

I think there would be gossip and if the family didn't claim it was an intruder, then it had to be a family member, and people might guess it was BR so even if the cops treaded lightly people would still know. Would any kid want that kind of stigma to follow them around? No, BR would expect his parents to keep his secret, and if they had any secrets of their own he would gladly keep those secrets in return.

 

[BBB167893]

:goodpost:

Imo, they never regretted for one minute the steps they took to keep themselves out of jail, and BR out of the range of any CPS investigation.

From Journey Beyond Reason - As an Assistant DA assigned to the Ramsey investigation, Keenan expressed her belief that an intruder killed JonBenet and focused her efforts on the Ramseys’ neighbor, Bill McReynolds. Since her election to office, District Attorney Keenan has not involved herself in this case. She has not forwarded any actions involving anything Ramsey to Assistant DA Bill Nagle. Dissatisfied because the police evidence led to them, the Rs’ lawyer LW threatened to sue the Boulder Police Department and the City of Boulder if Keenen (ML) did not remove the investigation from police hands.

According to LW, PR and JR wanted the case solved and were prepared to sue to have the case removed from the BPD. Cue in ML.

Years later in 2006 John Ramsey says to Reverend Wayne Cordeira on Connecting Point, that the appointment of a new prosecutor -- Mary Keenan, who now goes by her married name of Mary Lacy -- was the answer to the couple's prayers for justice. And (imo, A Little Twist of the Knife, coup de grace) - “Ramsey said he has forgiven the Boulder police and people in the news media for the suspicion that was cast upon them after his daughter's killing. “

Lots of coincidences in there, eh?

 

[andreww]

Lots of coincidences in there, eh?

Kinda like how there's been no IDIs here in the last 48 hrs. Feast or famine with these guys.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Foreign Faction]

The ransom note, in all its glorious length and lunacy, written by PR, with the likely dictation of JR, is the biggest piece of evidence to me that the R's were involved in covering up BR's whacking of JBR on the head (then JR most likely did the strangulation).
While I'm not a graphologist (a "soft" science, at best), I am a psychologist and educator, but folks, it don't take a PhD to see that PR wrote the letter, and the phraseology was a mixture of PR with some JR thrown in for good measure (you can see the more intellectual of the pair, JR, veiled thinly in the RN).

As I've posted in the poll thread about the RN's progenitors, I believe the RN fully to be a subconscious confession by PR, as well her oh-so-subtle (!) warning to JR.

 

[Tadpole12]

(you can see the more intellectual of the pair, JR, veiled thinly in the RN)
.

Heyya ff

How so?

 

[AndHence]

The strongest RDI evidence remains the note. The physical evidence was thin at best (fiber evidence remains in dispute and never had to be presented by LE) and the question of prior abuse was a divisive one among experts. The fact that the note is patently bogus/irregular and written in the house using materials from the house is very telling.

 

[Foreign Faction]

Heyya ff

How so?

Hi Tad, I would say by the phrases, some of the terminology, sentence structure, and the like. Even terms such as my own eponymous "foreign faction" does not, to me, seem like something PR would come up with on her own. I think it's possible JR treated her like one of his secretaries, and dictated most of the note to her. I would have to go through the note again to find more references, and I will when I have some more time.

BTW, this last post of mine made me consider to start a new thread speculating on PR's IQ.

 

[CircuitGuy]

Even terms such as my own eponymous "foreign faction" does not, to me, seem like something PR would come up with on her own. I think it's possible JR treated her like one of his secretaries, and dictated most of the note to her. I would have to go through the note again to find more references, and I will when I have some more time.

To me it seems the opposite. It seems like stuff a housewife would pick up from movies and not language someone running a tech company would use.

I think the word faction comes up in action movies because they want the hero fighting a foreign enemy. The producers have no desire to make a political statement, so instead of the hero fighting Iran he's fighting some rogue faction in the Iranian gov't. Patriot Games did this. The protagonist fights the IRA, but film sidesteps the real-world political ramifications of this by saying it was some radical faction of the IRA. That way viewers can enjoy the film and not feel like debating whether it portrayed the IRA too harshly.

I think the writer of the note barely understood the word "faction". The writer was just throwing in terms from various movies that she/he thought pointed away from himself: foreigners, a disgruntled employee in the business, someone outside the business who is angry and conflicted about it.

If JR had written a note along this vein, it might have made allusions to John having the board in his back pocket, John selecting vendors tied to his friends and failing to disclose it to the gov't, or the business issuing equity that diluted some people's shares and not other's, or something like that. "You're not the only fat cat around" sounds like a confused housewife talking about business.

Thank you for posting your ideas. It would be boring to read a bunch of people who think the exact same thing I do.

 

[Foreign Faction]

To me it seems the opposite. It seems like stuff a housewife would pick up from movies and not language someone running a tech company would use.

I think the word faction comes up in action movies because they want the hero fighting a foreign enemy. The producers have no desire to make a political statement, so instead of the hero fighting Iran he's fighting some rogue faction in the Iranian gov't. Patriot Games did this. The protagonist fights the IRA, but film sidesteps the real-world political ramifications of this by saying it was some radical faction of the IRA. That way viewers can enjoy the film and not feel like debating whether it portrayed the IRA too harshly.

I think the writer of the note barely understood the word "faction". The writer was just throwing in terms from various movies that she/he thought pointed away from himself: foreigners, a disgruntled employee in the business, someone outside the business who is angry and conflicted about it.

If JR had written a note along this vein, it might have made allusions to John having the board in his back pocket, John selecting vendors tied to his friends and failing to disclose it to the gov't, or the business issuing equity that diluted some people's shares and not other's, or something like that. "You're not the only fat cat around" sounds like a confused housewife talking about business.

Thank you for posting your ideas. It would be boring to read a bunch of people who think the exact same thing I do.

Great post! I will have to think about all this a little more carefully, it seems. I always had the impression it was JR's movie watching habit that contributed to some of the phrases used in the RN. But perhaps not, I seem to recall reading somewhere that experts had "determined" that there were feminine touches in the syntax and grammar construction of the RN.

 

[singularity]

The ransom note, in all its glorious length and lunacy, written by PR, with the likely dictation of JR, is the biggest piece of evidence to me that the R's were involved in covering up BR's whacking of JBR on the head.

John didn't even hesitate to send him away and Patsy barely even acknowledged Burke leaving the house. If he had anything to do with her murder can you really picture that?

John and Patsy: "Burke killed her but lets send him on over to Fleet's house to play Nintendo. The cops and even the FBI might go interview him while we sit here waiting for these people to find the body for six more hours but our 9 year old son would never crack in front of FBI agents with vast experience interviewing witnesses or keystone cops lucking into getting a confession. He'll make sure our house of cards never crumbles! Even if they take him down to BPD or FBI without our knowledge he wont crack under pressure. Burke knows what's best. He'll never risk the billion dollar empire. He's only in fourth grade but he's smart!"

I'm not buying it for a second. If Burke bludgeoned her, John and Patsy aren't letting him out of their sight for one nanosecond much less letting him leave the premises. There can be multiple reasons for wanting him gone and exposing him to the risk of being interrogated within the next six hours without their knowledge....being the killer is not one of them.

I've said this before...John and Patsy cannot predict that early in the morning that everything will be bungled to that extent. You don't send your 9 year old murdering son to someones house where he cant be monitored by you for hours on end.

Burke is/was very dysfunctional. That house was dysfunction junction. Burke isn't the killer. He's a victim of the dysfunction who survived.

I also realize keeping him there opens him up to questioning as well but at least you can control the flow of information if he is in your presence. They didn't give a rat's patootie about Burke that morning because they had no reason to. He wasn't in any danger from kidnappers and he wasn't going to confess to murder because he didn't do it. So get him out of there and get the show on the road.

 

[Foreign Faction]

John didn't even hesitate to send him away and Patsy barely even acknowledged Burke leaving the house. If he had anything to do with her murder can you really picture that?

John and Patsy: "Burke killed her but lets send him on over to Fleet's house to play Nintendo. The cops and even the FBI might go interview him while we sit here waiting for these people to find the body for six more hours but our 9 year old son would never crack in front of FBI agents with vast experience interviewing witnesses or keystone cops lucking into getting a confession. He'll make sure our house of cards never crumbles! Even if they take him down to BPD or FBI without our knowledge he wont crack under pressure. Burke knows what's best. He'll never risk the billion dollar empire. He's only in fourth grade but he's smart!"

I'm not buying it for a second. If Burke bludgeoned her, John and Patsy aren't letting him out of their sight for one nanosecond much less letting him leave the premises. There can be multiple reasons for wanting him gone and exposing him to the risk of being interrogated within the next six hours without their knowledge....being the killer is not one of them.

I've said this before...John and Patsy cannot predict that early in the morning that everything will be bungled to that extent. You don't send your 9 year old murdering son to someones house where he cant be monitored by you for hours on end.

Burke is/was very dysfunctional. That house was dysfunction junction. Burke isn't the killer. He's a victim of the dysfunction who survived.

I also realize keeping him there opens him up to questioning as well but at least you can control the flow of information if he is in your presence. They didn't give a rat's patootie about Burke that morning because they had no reason to. He wasn't in any danger from kidnappers and he wasn't going to confess to murder because he didn't do it. So get him out of there and get the show on the road.

Very interesting, and some very valid points here. I'll have to think some more about all this.
What you write here gives me pause to think and perhaps any other BDI theorists should as well.
I've never said though that BR actually killed her, the autopsy is clear that the garroting did that. Do you thoughts here still apply if BR was the one who knocked her on the head, but didn't actually kill her? I would suppose "yes" would be the answer.

I have NOT heard BR's voice on the 911 call, I'll readily admit that. IF, and ONLY IF one can prove to me that he can be heard on the 911 call asking "What did you find?", that would certainly bolster what you are espousing here, since I don't think BR would ever ask that question if he was the one who hit JBR on the head, and had an idea about what was going on/had been going on in the house.

It just kills me that the more I read and write on here in this forum, the more I feel my opinions are changing. NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING, will ever convince though that this case is anything but a RDI incident. I guess that's all I may ever believe with all my heart and soul.

 

[Tadpole12]

Today: http://www.today.com/id/33600013/ns...da-wife-faked-her-own-abduction/#.VzkvdC1zaow

Datleline video: http://www.nbcnews.com/video/dateline/55002569#55002569



I recently watched an episode of 'Ransom' on Dateline"; featured the Quinn fake abduction case.
A few comparisons to the RDI, ransom note in wife's handwriting, lengthy note, small ransom amount demanded, three Albanians.
A woman's imagination, perhaps?

Money drop arranged, but multiple attempts of money drop off unsuccessful....

 

[OliviaG1996]

John didn't even hesitate to send him away and Patsy barely even acknowledged Burke leaving the house. If he had anything to do with her murder can you really picture that?

John and Patsy: "Burke killed her but lets send him on over to Fleet's house to play Nintendo. The cops and even the FBI might go interview him while we sit here waiting for these people to find the body for six more hours but our 9 year old son would never crack in front of FBI agents with vast experience interviewing witnesses or keystone cops lucking into getting a confession. He'll make sure our house of cards never crumbles! Even if they take him down to BPD or FBI without our knowledge he wont crack under pressure. Burke knows what's best. He'll never risk the billion dollar empire. He's only in fourth grade but he's smart!"

I'm not buying it for a second. If Burke bludgeoned her, John and Patsy aren't letting him out of their sight for one nanosecond much less letting him leave the premises. There can be multiple reasons for wanting him gone and exposing him to the risk of being interrogated within the next six hours without their knowledge....being the killer is not one of them.

I've said this before...John and Patsy cannot predict that early in the morning that everything will be bungled to that extent. You don't send your 9 year old murdering son to someones house where he cant be monitored by you for hours on end.

Burke is/was very dysfunctional. That house was dysfunction junction. Burke isn't the killer. He's a victim of the dysfunction who survived.

I also realize keeping him there opens him up to questioning as well but at least you can control the flow of information if he is in your presence. They didn't give a rat's patootie about Burke that morning because they had no reason to. He wasn't in any danger from kidnappers and he wasn't going to confess to murder because he didn't do it. So get him out of there and get the show on the road.

I definitely understand where you're coming from. I'm sure JR and PR drilled it into BR the story of "you came home, played with toys with dad, and went to bed," pretty harshly before and after the 9-1-1 call was made. That's a very simple story to stick to. Maybe they even told him that if any police officer tries to question him, to cry and try to avoid any questions. They probably weren't planning on any officers making their way to Fleet White's house. Also, if they left BR at home with them, he would have eventually been forced to see his sister's body and know, for the rest of his life (if BDI), that he did this to his little sister. I think that thought alone while looking at the body could've made him crack faster than if a police officer happened to question him at Fleet White's home. Everyone's hysteria upon eventually "finding" the body could've been too much for BR to handle, too, and I think the R parents had this in mind while planning to send him off somewhere "more safe".

 

[Foreign Faction]

I definitely understand where you're coming from. I'm sure JR and PR drilled it into BR the story of "you came home, played with toys with dad, and went to bed," pretty harshly before and after the 9-1-1 call was made. That's a very simple story to stick to. Maybe they even told him that if any police officer tries to question him, to cry and try to avoid any questions. They probably weren't planning on any officers making their way to Fleet White's house. Also, if they left BR at home with them, he would have eventually been forced to see his sister's body and know, for the rest of his life (if BDI), that he did this to his little sister. I think that thought alone while looking at the body could've made him crack faster than if a police officer happened to question him at Fleet White's home. Everyone's hysteria upon eventually "finding" the body could've been too much for BR to handle, too, and I think the R parents had this in mind while planning to send him off somewhere "more safe".

Also very good points, I have thought myself that if BDI, then it might be better for him NOT to be around when the police came and body was inevitably "found." I like your line of reasoning here, especially the point about BR having to see JBR's little body. It's possible, in my own BDI theory, that BR, when he realized what he had done and/or had been found out, wherever it may have been, did not see JBR's body any other time after that, so IMHO he was not involved in the garroting and staging.

 

[UKGuy]

I definitely understand where you're coming from. I'm sure JR and PR drilled it into BR the story of "you came home, played with toys with dad, and went to bed," pretty harshly before and after the 9-1-1 call was made. That's a very simple story to stick to. Maybe they even told him that if any police officer tries to question him, to cry and try to avoid any questions. They probably weren't planning on any officers making their way to Fleet White's house. Also, if they left BR at home with them, he would have eventually been forced to see his sister's body and know, for the rest of his life (if BDI), that he did this to his little sister. I think that thought alone while looking at the body could've made him crack faster than if a police officer happened to question him at Fleet White's home. Everyone's hysteria upon eventually "finding" the body could've been too much for BR to handle, too, and I think the R parents had this in mind while planning to send him off somewhere "more safe".

OliviaG1996,
Interesting thoughts. Implicit, I reckon, in the BBM phrase is that JR was planning ahead, he had likely decided he would have to find JonBenet.

Yet how many members think BR has viewed JonBenet's postmortem pictures online? Something away back in 1996 the R's could never have envisaged: an adult BR poring over those images.

.