Who Could Get Kyron Out of School More Easily (Unseen)? Terri or another person?

[jadejazzkayla]

If it was Terri removing Kyron from school, it was nothing more or less than she's done every day she's parented him and nothing more than a million parents do every day when they have a multiple children. Kidnapping is difficult when the child needs to be restrained or quieted or taken somewhere against their will. When the kidnapper is a parent, they just can just say "time to go". No need for two hands to grab or carry - the child walks. The 18 month old is used to seeing her brother walking along with Mom and there's nothing out of the ordinary to require extra effort on the parents' part.



IMO, in one scenario Terri could be walking with Kyron down the hall, maybe pause to look at some classroom artwork hanging there, wait until the hallway and side door area is empty and then tell K, "Okay, doctors appointment - I parked out front today so we'll go out this way - " and then he walks out the door and she's sure no one saw him from the inside. Or - she tells him, "okay, doctor's appointment - I parked out front today so we'll go out this way - run out to the truck and I'll be right there as soon as I change baby K" and then she waits until he's clear and then walks out a different door, saying goodbye to someone on the way.

That's one scenario, I'm sure there are many scenarios in which a person could have a willing, trusting child leave by a side door after making sure there was no traffic in the hallway, and then exiting separately.

first bbm....exactly ami, i agree 100%. if Terri walked out with Kyron - we know of no one who saw them. and if she did take him out it's a damn shame no one remembered it (or saw it) the next day or thereabouts.

second bbm...exactly. how can anyone be so sure that no one saw, that they would take the chance and kidnap. I just can't get beyond that.

third bbm....exactly. I'm sure there are many senarios that we all maybe haven't even thought of yet - but the risk is unsurmountable for me to fathom. I wouldn't make a good criminal, i guess.

 

[jadejazzkayla]

I think the reason I suspected TH from the beginning is that it's just so incredibly implausible that a stranger would attempt to abduct a kid from a school, it's just way too unnecessarily risky, whereas a parent could walk out with a kid or get the kid to walk out on his own without raising any suspicion at all.
For me that's why the truck on the access road is huge. If true, it's really the only piece of circumstantial evidence we've seen so far that would point to TH. It sounds like they have one witness to the truck being there but for some reason that witness is shakey so they are making the public plea for others (and given the field day a defense lawyer will have with the suggestive effect of those photos on a witness 2-months after the fact, it seems like a desparate plea). IF LE also has a witness seeing Kyron going out the side door or walking on the track toward the street, those two pieces taken together make a pretty compelling circumstantial case against TH. Without such a sighting of Kyron (and if, as you say, it's unlikely someone couldexit that route without being seen on a morning when lots of folks are out and about the school), a shakey witness regarding the truck on the access road doesn't amount to much of a case.

first bbm....I hear you on that one. but the risk, the risk. cohonas of steel.

second bbm....I agree the access road could be huge.

 

[MarieFaith]

I wouldn't make a good criminal, either.

But somebody did fit that bill.

However Kyron was gotten out of that school, and by whomever, it was very risky.

And, very sadly, it worked.

 

[jadejazzkayla]

LE has said that TH was the last person to see Kyron. I think from that we can deduce that no one saw Kyron after TH left. We may also be able to deduce from that that no one saw TH actually get in her truck and drive away without Kyron.

snipped by me.....to quote capt gates from the june 18th pc "terri was the last KNOWN person to see kyron."

I think this statement is HUGE. I voted for this statement as the biggest red herring in this case. To me, it told me that LE was focusing on Terri as the kidnapper. And by red herring - I mean - LE is saying these words, but they really don't have any proof THAT WE HAVE BEEN PRIVY TO - that supports this. They believe it, in my opinion and that's cool for me. but...but...but...their evidence so far - that we know of, hasn't been enough for the DA to say - go get her.

and as far as no one seeing Terri get into her truck without kyron - we don't know if that is true or not.

 

[jadejazzkayla]

I agree that it would be far easier for a parent to walk out of the school with a child, especially a small school, than for a stranger to do that. And, especially on a busy morning as it was with the science fair. Someone could have seen them, but not really noticed them. There's a difference. Especially since she was a trusted volunteer who people were used to seeing.

If Terri wasn't watching herself to see if someone seemed to be paying attention to her leaving with Kyron, then someone else could have been doing that for her. And if she had been seen, she could just continue, and say later that Kyron had been snatched from her, or she just turned her head and he was suddenly gone, etc.
'
Or inside the school she could have said something like this:..."Kyron, I'm going on out to the truck to change baby's diaper before we go to the doctor...(or wherever). Do you need to go to the bathroom first? Well, honey, go try, anyway. The truck's out front (or out back, whatever.) I've already checked you out in the office."

bbm....your right. someone could have easily seen her and not noticed them. But for a kidnapper to TRUST that no one would remember them the next day or thereabouts, when kyron's face was all over the news. I really can't get beyond that.

Terri was a volunteer at the school. that doesn't mean that the other parents or especially visitors would recognize her as such. I see an adult walking to their car at my kids school - I can sort of guess if are teachers if they have the bags and stuff with them. (and probly cause they don't have a kid with them). but the person who volunteers at my kids school more than anyone else? i don't know who that is. our school is grade 4-8 with about 400 students - so about 25% larger than kyron's.

But that's just me. I'm there to get my kid - I say hello to those I know and I'm outta there. Hide in plain site? Someone could certainly do that with me around - but to trust that EVERYONE who sees is going to be like that. I can't see it. rant over.

 

[desquire]

I am positive TH did whatever was done to Kyron. But, I don't think it is implausible for a stranger to snatch a child from school. .... I just don't believe that is what happened in Kyron's case.

You make a convincing argument and maybe my belief that a sicko kid toucher would be rationally risk-averse is wrong on a couple of levels. But if that's so, I'm interested in the facts that make you sure that TH did it.

 

[jadejazzkayla]

JADE...you are 100% correct, this is the part of my theory that slows me down every time!! How could T have COUNTED ON not being seen? And if she had been planning this for some time that seems a gamble she wouldnt have been willing to take...

The exit from the school and the limited number and length of the holes in her time frame are the things that threaten to send me back up on the fence about her....I feel in my heart that she is culpable just cant seem to piece together the hows...thats may be why LE is so adamant about corraborating the accomplice theory...it may be the only way all of this is plausible...Im sticking with my "theory of twos"---two red heads, two trucks, two FMs, two parking places etc....so wish we could get ansers to some of the smaller details like type of meds for Baby and parking lot at gym having cameras or not....
:banghead:

bbm... me too! the 90 minutes or so - that we haven't heard Terri's alibi for yet ....I voted in the poll thread that I don't believe she was driving around with a fussy baby - I don't know what i think she was doing...but not the ear thing.

o/t my best friend thinks Terri kidnapped kyron and she believes the driving around with fussy baby thing - and i think terri is innocent and i don't believe the driving around. my friend reads here but doesn't post - yet.

 

[ami]

first bbm....exactly ami, i agree 100%. if Terri walked out with Kyron - we know of no one who saw them. and if she did take him out it's a damn shame no one remembered it (or saw it) the next day or thereabouts.

second bbm...exactly. how can anyone be so sure that no one saw, that they would take the chance and kidnap. I just can't get beyond that.

third bbm....exactly. I'm sure there are many senarios that we all maybe haven't even thought of yet - but the risk is unsurmountable for me to fathom. I wouldn't make a good criminal, i guess.

Yeah, exactly. There is no one who could be sure that they'd go unseen. So.. either:

- They didn't care if they were seen in the moment as long as there was no alarm raised because of it and they could still exit without confrontation (a stranger, nondescript, not local, therefore unworried someone could ID him/her very well.)

- They knew the school well enough to be reasonably sure they could at least get out out the door with no problem and they were willing to risk the rest (another parent, a teacher, Terri)

- They came up with a plan full of holes that only sheer egotism allowed them to believe would work. And dumb luck presented itself and it DID work. (Terri, a stranger, teacher or other school parent).

- They came up with a hole-filled plan and someone did see them, only LE has not told us this yet in deference to court case-building. (terri)

- ??? I dunno, this is where my mind stops.

 

[MarieFaith]

People keep trying to figure out a way Kyron got out of the school without it being something really risky for whoever was taking him out.

We are trying to put our own selves in a situation in which we never really would be.

Perhaps for people who would be in this risky situation, the risk is part of the lure, part of the sick pleasure.

Whatever happened...happened. And as I said in another post, it worked.

Or at least, as far as we know, it worked.

I'm praying that LE is sitting on some explosive information that will be soon revealed.

 

[liz b.]

Kyron could have been lured to a janitor's closet,or a little used storeroom in the school basement. He could have been sexually assaulted and killed. The killer could have placed Kyron's body in industrial flex garbage bags. Double bags. Covered the body,still in the flex bags, with other supplies, and hid it in back of the closet/storeroom. Waited until his lunch break when the school was quiet.,and placed the bag in the trunk of his car. Driven off campus, and either dumped the body in a municipal dumpster,or down a ravine. After his lunchbreak,returned to school, a day like any other...

This would be someone who ;

1. Knew every inch of the school.

2. Knew the routines of the school very well, including the different routine of the school on Science Fair Day.

3. Had been watching the children for some time, perhaps looking for a certain physical type, or a child who was timid and small for his age.

4. Had planned the event for quite a while. Gained pleasure from his planning.

5. Would not stand out at all in school; he belonged there,and the children knew him by sight. Although some kids might have felt uneasy in his presence.

6. Has no police record.

7. Has a well developed talent for fooling authority.


All JMO

 

[ami]

Kyron could have been lured to a janitor's closet,or a little used storeroom in the school basement. He could have been sexually assaulted and killed. The killer could have placed Kyron's body in industrial flex garbage bags. Double bags. Covered the body,still in the flex bags, with other supplies, and hid it in back of the closet/storeroom. Waited until his lunch break when the school was quiet.,and placed the bag in the trunk of his car. Driven off campus, and either dumped the body in a municipal dumpster,or down a ravine. After his lunchbreak,returned to school, a day like any other...

This would be someone who ;

1. Knew every inch of the school.

2. Knew the routines of the school very well, including the different routine of the school on Science Fair Day.

3. Had been watching the children for some time, perhaps looking for a certain physical type, or a child who was timid and small for his age.

4. Had planned the event for quite a while. Gained pleasure from his planning.

5. Would not stand out at all in school; he belonged there,and the children knew him by sight. Although some kids might have felt uneasy in his presence.

6. Has no police record.

7. Has a well developed talent for fooling authority.


All JMO

Yep, that could fit the case, too, sick as it is to think about.

 

[NocturnalLady]

I've given this a lot of thought... I think its not so much a matter of nobody having seen them as much as it is nobody having recognized them.

I think it would have been easier for a non-descript (normal, not creepy looking) person to walk out with Kyron without anyone remembering that they had seen the event, assuming they were moving quickly and the witness was watching from a distance.

My reason is this.... My son, E, is about to start the 2nd grade. There are 5 boys in his class (its a teensy school) from across the playground, parking lot, lunchroom etc... 4 of them .. same relative size, ethnicity, basic coloring, etc ...look alike to me. I have had trouble picking out my own kid in such circumstances. Also the boys who are in the first and third grades look similar enough that I'd really be in trouble if I had identify them if they were all in a group. BUT... I know the parents.. if I saw Mom of B walking with a kid, I'll assume the kid was B... but if I see an adult that I don't know then I won't really notice the kid at all. I'll assume its a kid I don't know since I know most of the parents of the kids I do know. Does that make sense?

If I knew Terri and Kyron, and I saw Terry walking out with a kid, I'd be able to say that I saw Terri and Kyron leave, with a good level of certainty. If I saw a person I didn't know walking out with a kid, I wouldn't be able to necessarily say for sure that I saw Kyron and an unidentified person leaving, unless I had interacted with them enough to recognize that it was Kyron. But from a distance, not likely. I think a kid might have had a better chance of seeing Kyron leave with a stranger than an adult would, but I think the kids were primarily otherwise occupied, in a place where they didn't have good visibility of the parking lots.

Great point!

I also think that if someone other than Terri abducted Kyron it could happen with people seeing it and not knowing what they were seeing at all. If you saw Terri with Kyron that would register in your mind because you knew them & knew they "went together". If a stranger took Kyron it might be easier not to be seen because people might not even register that Kyron was "with" that person. Think of a busy hallway, many parents and many children mingling and going in all directions. If a stranger was even only a step or two in front of Kyron you might easily see them and not think they were "together" at all. It wouldn't even register in your mind. With all the cross traffic you might never even know you saw the abduction happening - even after the fact - because unless the kidnapper was literally holding Kyron's hand or otherwise behaving strangely you would never even associate that person with Kyron. It would have never registered in your mind at all. All you would be able to say is where in the school you saw him last and maybe what direction he was going.

If Kyron was a child that was eager to please, an adult could have easily told him something along the lines of, "Your Mom told me to take you to her in the parking lot." and then just walked out with Kyron following. Especially if Terri had just recently left. Maybe this kidnapper overheard whatever discussion there may have been about the appointment and worked that into whatever he/she told Kyron to lure him away. I can see a child that has a certain personality type easily being taken that way.

 

[i.b.nora]

Kyron could have been lured to a janitor's closet, or a little used storeroom ...

liz b.: I concur with your post in its entirety and snipped it only in case your post gets dumped for even daring to think, much less utter, that someone besides Terri might be responsible.

I have been thinking about it for awhile now. I think the early investigation, followed by the more recent investigation has been hopelessly boggled. I think part of the problem has been in the District Attorney's office. That is all I will say.

Thank you for posting your thoughts.

 

[BringKyronHome]

Great point!

I also think that if someone other than Terri abducted Kyron it could happen with people seeing it and not knowing what they were seeing at all. If you saw Terri with Kyron that would register in your mind because you knew them & knew they "went together". If a stranger took Kyron it might be easier not to be seen because people might not even register that Kyron was "with" that person. Think of a busy hallway, many parents and many children mingling and going in all directions. If a stranger was even only a step or two in front of Kyron you might easily see them and not think they were "together" at all. It wouldn't even register in your mind. With all the cross traffic you might never even know you saw the abduction happening - even after the fact - because unless the kidnapper was literally holding Kyron's hand or otherwise behaving strangely you would never even associate that person with Kyron. It would have never registered in your mind at all. All you would be able to say is where in the school you saw him last and maybe what direction he was going.

If Kyron was a child that was eager to please, an adult could have easily told him something along the lines of, "Your Mom told me to take you to her in the parking lot." and then just walked out with Kyron following. Especially if Terri had just recently left. Maybe this kidnapper overheard whatever discussion there may have been about the appointment and worked that into whatever he/she told Kyron to lure him away. I can see a child that has a certain personality type easily being taken that way.

OMG! What if another child did the luring????!

 

[NocturnalLady]

I think the easiness or difficulty is pretty evenly matched, IMHO.

For Terri, if she's guilty, she had the benefit of planning, she had the benefit of knowing the school's policies, vulnerabilities, and layout, and of course, she had the benefit of Kyron's trust. What makes it harder are many of the same things, IMHO. If she knew the school, the school and its workers knew her, and it is likely many other parents and students knew her from her time volunteering in Kyron's classroom. She is not someone who passes under the radar, in terms of her appearance. IMHO, she's not particularly striking, but her hair stands out. It's not just red, it's very, very long. The baby is very unusual looking and very cute. Anytime someone has a baby, people seem drawn to them. "Oh, look at the baby! Oh, she's so cute!" And on and on. The logistics of staging an abduction while dealing with a toddler are difficult to imagine. I think Kyron leaving with Terri out the front door would be noticeable; it would go against the grain, someone could easily ask why they were leaving, if he was sick, etc. In retrospect, no one saw her, but the risk for her was there even moreso than a stranger, IMHO.

As far as a stranger goes; if the stranger is not someone who came to the school on the invitation of someone participating in the Science Fair, then the stranger shouldn't have been at the school. There's the risk that someone could've asked this person what they were doing there. However, the Science Fair was advertised on the board outside the school, so the stranger would've known the school would be busy. He could have passed as a relative, especially if he kept a low profile. He benefits slightly here because no one is noticing him like they would have noticed Terri, "Kyron's mom," the baby, etc. The question remains, how did this person get Kyron out of the school unseen?

I'm pretty creative, and I honestly can't figure out how it was done. I know Turf Guy was busy, but if you're about to abduct and either murder or hide a child, you don't want to risk your entire plan because of a Turf Guy. I think he probably served as a deterrent for anyone absconding with Kyron on the access road, and then there's the chain that would've delayed a quick getaway. Turf Guy was pretty observant, seeing the children come out the back door, etc. The probability that a vehicle pulled around that side of the school, managed to get Kyron into the vehicle, and then drove on the access road totally unseen by Turf Guy at any point, has to be rather astronomical, IMHO. We're talking someone won the lotto with luck on that one, IMHO.

Was anyone toting around a large bin or duffel bag that day (ostensibly to transport a project)? Is it possible this was an accident committed by someone else, and realizing Kyron was obviously dead, they covered it up?

While we're considering possibilities...What if Kyron was killed at the school and removed later but before the searches? Were cadaver dogs used inside the school?

I agree. It could easily go either way. Until I hear that LE say that none of the teachers left during the lunch hour that day, that no large trash cans were emptied that day, until every single parent or relative that was at that science fair has been cleared....well until then I can't say I suspect anyone more than anyone else. I don't like Terri's behavior. I think she did have a motive. But I also think there could be any number of people there that day that could have had a motive too. How do we know there weren't 20 registered sex offenders there that day? We don't.

 

[NocturnalLady]

I think the reason I suspected TH from the beginning is that it's just so incredibly implausible that a stranger would attempt to abduct a kid from a school, it's just way too unnecessarily risky, whereas a parent could walk out with a kid or get the kid to walk out on his own without raising any suspicion at all.
For me that's why the truck on the access road is huge. If true, it's really the only piece of circumstantial evidence we've seen so far that would point to TH. It sounds like they have one witness to the truck being there but for some reason that witness is shakey so they are making the public plea for others (and given the field day a defense lawyer will have with the suggestive effect of those photos on a witness 2-months after the fact, it seems like a desparate plea). IF LE also has a witness seeing Kyron going out the side door or walking on the track toward the street, those two pieces taken together make a pretty compelling circumstantial case against TH. Without such a sighting of Kyron (and if, as you say, it's unlikely someone couldexit that route without being seen on a morning when lots of folks are out and about the school), a shakey witness regarding the truck on the access road doesn't amount to much of a case.

Well, what happened to Elizabeth Smart, Polly Klass and Riley Fox was pretty dang implausible too. The way they were all kidnapped was something no one would believe if it hadn't actually happend that way. And how about Jaycee Dugard? Kidnapped on the corner of the street where she lived in broad daylight and in front of witnesses.

I think you can't underestimate what criminals are willing to do.

 

[NocturnalLady]

OMG! What if another child did the luring????!

I was actually thinking of the case of James Bulger in England. That child was lured out of a busy shopping mall, away from his mother who was standing just feet away and through streets with tons and tons of witnesses. The perps were two young boys - ten years old. They were caught in part because of cctv footage from mall security BUT no one who saw them leaving the mall and wandering the streets all day thought anything of it apparently.

 

[BringKyronHome]

I was actually thinking of the case of James Bulger in England. That child was lured out of a busy shopping mall, away from his mother who was standing just feet away and through streets with tons and tons of witnesses. The perps were two young boys - ten years old. They were caught in part because of cctv footage from mall security BUT no one who saw them leaving the mall and wandering the streets all day thought anything of it apparently.

OMG! That is TOOOO scary!

I hadn't thought of kids with their own intentions, I was thinking more like Shawn Hornby/BenOrbeck type situation.

The possibilites are many, aren't they? I just hope that Terri's stupid behavior isn't detracting from a proper investigation.

 

[STEADFAST]

I agree. It could easily go either way. Until I hear that LE say that none of the teachers left during the lunch hour that day, that no large trash cans were emptied that day, until every single parent or relative that was at that science fair has been cleared....well until then I can't say I suspect anyone more than anyone else. I don't like Terri's behavior. I think she did have a motive. But I also think there could be any number of people there that day that could have had a motive too. How do we know there weren't 20 registered sex offenders there that day? We don't.

We don't. But LE does.

 

[desquire]

I was actually thinking of the case of James Bulger in England. That child was lured out of a busy shopping mall, away from his mother who was standing just feet away and through streets with tons and tons of witnesses. The perps were two young boys - ten years old. They were caught in part because of cctv footage from mall security BUT no one who saw them leaving the mall and wandering the streets all day thought anything of it apparently.

Or Elizabeth Olten. Lured somewhere she wouldn't ordinarily go by an older kid and hidden so well in the brush that searchers couldn't find her until led to the spot.