Who is GBC? An armchair psych discussion

[they'll get you]

This describes my (very recent) ex and his mum perfectly! How many times I have heard that line about other people being jealous if they disagreed or expressed some dissatisfaction. Same with getting a bad grade or performance evaluation. It was always that the other person has an agenda or feels threatened. Man that drove me up the wall! It's strange to be around that sort of thinking because if you disagree, that goes through the same BS filter, and another twisted idea comes back at you and you can't really argue with it because the logic is so off. It sort of leaves you stunned. Sorry OT I know.

The similarities between GBC, my ex and your ex are chilling, I hope it's not off topic as we are trying to get an insight into who GBC is, and people who have been involved with that type may be able to put a spotlight on GBC's 'mind'.

They walk among us, they are everywhere that's why I was drawn to Allison missing and I'm been tagging along ever since.

 

[Opinionsgalore]

"Consider" asked me on the verdict thread to link to the post about narcissistic injury/suicide. Hope this link works. I highly recommend this book. I bought it a decade ago when trying to figure out my escape from my ex husbands narcissistic family.

http://samvak.tripod.com/narcissismmyths.html

"Narcissists very rarely commit suicide. They react with suicidal ideation and reactive psychoses to severe stress – but to commit suicide runs against the grain of narcissism. This is more of a Borderline (BPD) behavior. The differential diagnosis of NPD from BPD rests on the absence of attempted suicide and self-mutilation in NPD.

In response to a life crisis (divorce, public disgrace, imprisonment, accident, bankruptcy, terminal or disfiguring illness) the narcissist is likely to adopt either of two reactions:

1. The narcissist finally refers himself to therapy, realising that something is dangerously wrong with him. Statistics show that talk therapies are rather ineffective with narcissism. Soon enough, the therapist is bored, fed up or actively repelled by the grandiose fantasies and open contempt of the narcissist. The therapeutic alliance crumbles and the narcissist emerges "triumphant" having sucked the therapist's energy dry.

2. The narcissist frantically gropes for alternative Sources of Narcissistic Supply. Narcissists are very creative. If all else fails, they exhibitionistically make use of their own misery. Or they lie, create a fantasy, confabulate, harp on other people's emotions, fake a medical condition, pull a stunt, fall in ideal love, make a provocative move or commit a crime… The narcissist is bound to come up with a surprising angle to extract his narcissistic supply from a begrudging and mean world."

This topic really interests me because I had a relationship with someone who was self-absorbed and I didn't even realize what was going on. Once that person had no use for me anymore, they said terrible things and I was so shocked. I really thought I knew him. Even everyone we knew was shocked when he did his complete turn around. Because of that experience, cases like this hold me captive because now I know a person can be completely fake and have everyone fooled. Who are they, really? I don't know that there is an answer!

Do they think we are all as shallow as they are? Or do they recognize truthful, empathetic people and know how to manipulate them? So many questions!

When I think of Allison, I think "but for the grace of God, there go I...."

I read 'psychopath free' as part of my recovery, and the author - another survivor, believes that they target empathic people because they know how to manipulate them.

Reading all the post trial stories about GBC has given me chills, as I see the S I was involved with, as you said Kimster "but for the grace of God...."

 

[they'll get you]

It's horrible to think that the disrespect we saw fired at Allison during the trial was probably chicken feed compared to the disrespect they openly displayed towards Allison every day and in person.

I know you're right. I know these types first hand, on the outside butter wouldn't melt but behind closed doors they are mind twisting pigs who you DON'T dare reason with or disagree.

 

[Opinionsgalore]

I honestly believe Gerard Baden-Clay has a sociopathic type of personality discorder. I think Allison was unaware of this and he hid it very well. I don't think many people know how to identify his type of personality.
At the age many people marry (from 20 years to 40 years of age) there are not too many people who know enough about sociopathic personalities. The lucky ones just think someone is a bit odd and keep away from them without thinking too much more about it. We are too young to understand the dangers of the sociopath when we are at marrying age.
Poor Allison, Gerard Baden-Clay was attracted to her romantically so she was doomed. His parents seemed to have approved of his behaviour, it is as though he saw himself as an aristocrat.
His sociopathic personality can be seen in his absolutely controlling behaviour. I have read about his control over the children...hand signals!! I am glad they are now in a nurturing environment.
There is now a lot more publicity about sociopaths and how to identify them.
I wonder if anyone will ever uncover what he spent all that money on. He went through a lot of money, there must be some sort of a money trail. I have do doubt Queensland Police are working on it.
:lookingitup:

I also think people misinterpret what a sociopath is, they think they're shady, slimey dastardly and easy to spot, and to contrary they blend in, to their targets they are like manna from heaven - in the beginning, the targeted victim thinks they have met their saviour or soul mate - and there begins their deception that eventually leads to a cycle of idealisation and abuse, that in many cases leads their victims to developing Stockholm syndrome.

"His sociopathic personality can be seen in his absolutely controlling behaviour. I have read about his control over the children...hand signals!! I am glad they are now in a nurturing environment.
". This subject was in an article yesterday, and have me huge chills as the S I was involved with also raised his children in a regimental fashion, he talked about timetables - for NEW BORNS, about them not being allowed pacifiers as they had to learn to self soothe; reading that yesterday gave me chills.

 

[they'll get you]

This topic really interests me because I had a relationship with someone who was self-absorbed and I didn't even realize what was going on. Once that person had no use for me anymore, they said terrible things and I was so shocked. I really thought I knew him. Even everyone we knew was shocked when he did his complete turn around. Because of that experience, cases like this hold me captive because now I know a person can be completely fake and have everyone fooled. Who are they, really? I don't know that there is an answer!

Do they think we are all as shallow as they are? Or do they recognize truthful, empathetic people and know how to manipulate them? So many questions!

When I think of Allison, I think "but for the grace of God, there go I...."

Me too "but for the grace of God, there go I . . . "

That's why many of us are here. We were drawn to Allison because many of us are that ordinary suburban mother battling with the daily stresses of juggling children and life in general. Many here can relate to Allison Dickie.

I know narcissists cover their tracks and it's very hard to catch them out. It's almost a game to them and they gain power of outsmarting everyone.

It's such a good day to know GBC outsmarted himself. It's such a wonderful day today.
If he'd got off with a lesser charge I feel there would be many other copy cats doing the same.

Domestic violence starts with the man in the mirror.

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

This topic really interests me because I had a relationship with someone who was self-absorbed and I didn't even realize what was going on. Once that person had no use for me anymore, they said terrible things and I was so shocked. I really thought I knew him. Even everyone we knew was shocked when he did his complete turn around. Because of that experience, cases like this hold me captive because now I know a person can be completely fake and have everyone fooled. Who are they, really? I don't know that there is an answer!

Do they think we are all as shallow as they are? Or do they recognize truthful, empathetic people and know how to manipulate them? So many questions!

When I think of Allison, I think "but for the grace of God, there go I...."

I think it is both...they target people they can or believe they can manipulate, but beyond that there is (IMO) just a sheer lack of understanding about how people think and interact. Of course they can't be totally clueless or inept, otherwise their attempts at manipulation would be totally ineffective. But IMO its like they just don't...think? that other people have any capacity to think critically about what they say or do (meaning beyond what they want you to think). For example, the narcissist I work with is a habitual liar; he tells one story to me, another story to the lab manager, and a third story to the technicians, completely oblivious to the fact that we talk to each other, and especially if there is something going on in the lab (he claims a piece of equipment is malfunctioning) we are definitely gonna talk about that in particular because it is our job to do so! Or he will tell us he hasn't been in the office lately because he has been working in a different lab...well, the person he claimed to work with is a friend of mine - and he would know this if he paid attention when we are shooting the breeze during meetings etc. - and she had not seen or heard from him! It is like when you're a small child and you have no idea that your teachers exist outside school...I feel like the narcissists I have known haven't totally got past that. Like "well I told Jane this story about what I did; therefore she thinks that that's exactly what I did." or maybe I am conflating issues here...narcissism and lying :thinking:

 

[Snails]

More interesting reading -

http://samvak.tripod.com/journal63.html

"Pathological narcissism is the art of deception. The narcissist projects a False Self and manages all his social interactions through this concocted fictional construct. People often find themselves involved with a narcissist (emotionally, in business, or otherwise) before they have a chance to discover his true nature.

When the narcissist reveals his true colors, it is usually far too late. His victims are unable to separate from him. They are frustrated by this acquired helplessness and angry that they failed to see through the narcissist earlier on.

But the narcissist does emit subtle, almost subliminal, signals ("presenting symptoms") even in a first or casual encounter."

 

[Opinionsgalore]

More interesting reading -

http://samvak.tripod.com/journal63.html

"Pathological narcissism is the art of deception. The narcissist projects a False Self and manages all his social interactions through this concocted fictional construct. People often find themselves involved with a narcissist (emotionally, in business, or otherwise) before they have a chance to discover his true nature.

When the narcissist reveals his true colors, it is usually far too late. His victims are unable to separate from him. They are frustrated by this acquired helplessness and angry that they failed to see through the narcissist earlier on.

But the narcissist does emit subtle, almost subliminal, signals ("presenting symptoms") even in a first or casual encounter."

The final paragraph is spot on, a red flag is that they will tell a sob story very early (too early) to engage their victim and activate their empathy.

Another is lovebombing, where the N makes the victim feel like the centre of the universe - completely OTT.

 

[Opinionsgalore]

I think it is both...they target people they can or believe they can manipulate, but beyond that there is (IMO) just a sheer lack of understanding about how people think and interact. Of course they can't be totally clueless or inept, otherwise their attempts at manipulation would be totally ineffective. But IMO its like they just don't...think? that other people have any capacity to think critically about what they say or do (meaning beyond what they want you to think). For example, the narcissist I work with is a habitual liar; he tells one story to me, another story to the lab manager, and a third story to the technicians, completely oblivious to the fact that we talk to each other, and especially if there is something going on in the lab (he claims a piece of equipment is malfunctioning) we are definitely gonna talk about that in particular because it is our job to do so! Or he will tell us he hasn't been in the office lately because he has been working in a different lab...well, the person he claimed to work with is a friend of mine - and he would know this if he paid attention when we are shooting the breeze during meetings etc. - and she had not seen or heard from him! It is like when you're a small child and you have no idea that your teachers exist outside school...I feel like the narcissists I have known haven't totally got past that. Like "well I told Jane this story about what I did; therefore she thinks that that's exactly what I did." or maybe I am conflating issues here...narcissism and lying :thinking:

Narcissism and pathological lying go hand in hand.

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

More interesting reading -

http://samvak.tripod.com/journal63.html

"Pathological narcissism is the art of deception. The narcissist projects a False Self and manages all his social interactions through this concocted fictional construct. People often find themselves involved with a narcissist (emotionally, in business, or otherwise) before they have a chance to discover his true nature.

When the narcissist reveals his true colors, it is usually far too late. His victims are unable to separate from him. They are frustrated by this acquired helplessness and angry that they failed to see through the narcissist earlier on.

But the narcissist does emit subtle, almost subliminal, signals ("presenting symptoms") even in a first or casual encounter."

Omg I am definitely sharing this at work tomorrow. Thank you!:gaah:

 

[Consider]

GBC - R U OK??


QUOTE=Snails;10754082]He looks "a LOT hurt" in that photo. He and his family really thought he was going to be found not guilty. Amazing that after sitting through all the evidence they still couldn't believe it.[/QUOTE]

 

[possumheart]

I am just sitting here feeling sick thinking about some of the new stuff about that has come to light in the last 24 hours. I feel sick for Gerard's family. I can only make sense of things if I believe that he had completely fooled them for years. My other thought is perhaps he has modelled himself after Bwana, and this is a terrible tragedy. It would make sense that Elaine walked out after sentencing if G had indeed aspired to be like his father (both accountants), had become an extreme caricature of him and had taken his father's advice in defiantly pleading not guilty. We know that the western corporate world rewards psychopaths in business, so perhaps these character traits were nurtured in Gerard.
I know that Elaine will be worried if he is warm enough, eating properly and all of the accompanying maternal thoughts until her dying day. She may now be morning the tragic consequences of his socialisation. I know this because my big brother is schizophrenic and despite all manner of criminal and manipulative behaviour in his life, my mother still mourns her baby boy and worries about his welfare. The difference with schizophrenia is that you can mourn someone who is mad, and by default bad.
I am taking the opportunity to raise this as every time I have in the past it has been mod snipped. I wish I could express this more eloquently. I completely agree that the Baden-Clay family have been outrageously filthy in their denigration of Allison, and it is unforgivable. Completely and totally unforgivable.

 

[Spotted Reptile]

The final paragraph is spot on, a red flag is that they will tell a sob story very early (too early) to engage their victim and activate their empathy.

Another is lovebombing, where the N makes the victim feel like the centre of the universe - completely OTT.

This is where I think Gerard was more of a narcissist than a sociopath. I'm not a psychologist so don't quote me, but it seems that sociopaths have some poor functioning pathways and cannot relate to other people the way others can. No empathy, or understanding where others come from. I have known a few sociopaths and they just don't have a clue that they are hurting people or are being rude or anti-social. They have no sense of it at all.
Gerard seems to me more like a narcissist because he is exactly like a man my sister dated for quite a few years and was probably going to marry but luckily she got away. He had a sob story to engage her (2 wives left and cleared him out of millions) and he was fighting to get his life back and she was the first woman he could really talk to etc etc, and if only she'd live with him and support him (she had a job and he didn't) everything would be rosy again and she would share his riches. Well, my sister is always kind to broken wings and puts herself last (something I think narcissists have a very good radar for) so she did as he said and put up with his snide comments about her weight and how everything was her fault until eventually she got sick of it and left. Then the demands for money started and it was horrid to see the guy we had thought of as a good catch for my sister turn into this unrecognisable creep. However my husband never had a good word for him. Guys often spot what women do not.

 

[Consider]

Hi Greg

Don't know, but agree she is suss. I'm equally prepared to believe GBC wasn't likely to say this to a perfect stranger but he sure must have thrown around some ordinary pick-up lines (eg "Kiss me" to which TM must have responded with "der ok this is just what my kids and husband and your wife and children need...." )

I look forward to the thorough psych test GBC now receives whether he wants it or not - whether we will ever be privy or not - just soooo needs to happen)

UOTE=Greg;10754211]does anyone know who the blonde nutjob was on the tv last night, the one with the rolling eyes? when they were showing the bad acting killers?[/QUOTE]

 

[Champagne4lulu]

I really don't understand after all we have heard and found out during and after the trial that his family were 1. Shocked and 2. Still supporting him. His behaviour, attitudes to women, his double life and that he has lied to so many including them! This of course in addition to the murder.

Really?! I understand loving unconditionally, but I do not understand this almost approval and positive acceptance of his behaviour. It does not make any kind sense. It seems it was almost encouraged. If this was my son, I would be horrified and traumatised. I'd want to believe him, but really, it would be impossible in light of the facts.

Are they all narcissists? Are they in denial? What about the things he has actually admitted to? How do they process that?

 

[Opinionsgalore]

This is where I think Gerard was more of a narcissist than a sociopath. I'm not a psychologist so don't quote me, but it seems that sociopaths have some poor functioning pathways and cannot relate to other people the way others can. No empathy, or understanding where others come from. I have known a few sociopaths and they just don't have a clue that they are hurting people or are being rude or anti-social. They have no sense of it at all.
Gerard seems to me more like a narcissist because he is exactly like a man my sister dated for quite a few years and was probably going to marry but luckily she got away. He had a sob story to engage her (2 wives left and cleared him out of millions) and he was fighting to get his life back and she was the first woman he could really talk to etc etc, and if only she'd live with him and support him (she had a job and he didn't) everything would be rosy again and she would share his riches. Well, my sister is always kind to broken wings and puts herself last (something I think narcissists have a very good radar for) so she did as he said and put up with his snide comments about her weight and how everything was her fault until eventually she got sick of it and left. Then the demands for money started and it was horrid to see the guy we had thought of as a good catch for my sister turn into this unrecognisable creep. However my husband never had a good word for him. Guys often spot what women do not.

I noticed that heterosexual men and older ladies (55+) could pick the one I was involved with in in a heartbeat. I can distinctly remember an occasion where he was trying to engage a very sophisticated and beautiful older lady, he tried every trick in his book - more than once, and she graciously and politely accused herself, I could see her looking for an escape - although at the time I didn't understand why she wanted to be away from him, and she eventually just excused herself without explanation, I also saw heterosexual men just walk away from him mid conversation - they did not like him at all.
Interestingly after I bolted, my 2 sons admitted they he creeped them out - they thought he was horribly fake - and they tolerated him for me, lol, my neighbour, who is like a son to me also didn't take to him, but kept his mouth shut for my sake.

I wonder if that 'ick' factor is what set the police off straight away.... hmmmm

 

[Consider]

Hi Possumheart

You come from a good place and a good mum it seems to me and I think that's why you excuse and explain away so much of the BC family - particularly Elaine. I don't know if you've met them or read everything (for example How Elaine and Olivia treated the police - as though they were stealing Allison's jewellery... and Elaine's tongue kiss with Nigel for the cameras BEFORE Allison had been found and her offer of a fruit bowl to police when they arrived with a warrant to seize the BC's computers and phone 'Apple devices'...)

They provided GBC with a terrific school and education and he successfully learned maths/accounting: this subject area made Nigel and Elaine proud but it didn't culminate in GBC providing home ownership with and for his wife and three young daughters.... Yet he was in property!

I'm not so sure Nigel OR Elaine were 'good eggs'. Olivia has certainly lost me!

I expect Nigel and Elaine will turn on each other and blame the other in an attempt to extract themselves from the reality of this grown man/murderer they raised. Just my opinion.


QUOTE=possumheart;10754595]I am just sitting here feeling sick thinking about some of the new stuff about that has come to light in the last 24 hours. I feel sick for Gerard's family. I can only make sense of things if I believe that he had completely fooled them for years. My other thought is perhaps he has modelled himself after Bwana, and this is a terrible tragedy. It would make sense that Elaine walked out after sentencing if G had indeed aspired to be like his father (both accountants), had become an extreme caricature of him and had taken his father's advice in defiantly pleading not guilty. We know that the western corporate world rewards psychopaths in business, so perhaps these character traits were nurtured in Gerard.
I know that Elaine will be worried if he is warm enough, eating properly and all of the accompanying maternal thoughts until her dying day. She may now be morning the tragic consequences of his socialisation. I know this because my big brother is schizophrenic and despite all manner of criminal and manipulative behaviour in his life, my mother still mourns her baby boy and worries about his welfare. The difference with schizophrenia is that you can mourn someone who is mad, and by default bad.
I am taking the opportunity to raise this as every time I have in the past it has been mod snipped. I wish I could express this more eloquently. I completely agree that the Baden-Clay family have been outrageously filthy in their denigration of Allison, and it is unforgivable. Completely and totally unforgivable.[/QUOTE]

 

[Snails]

Hi Greg

Don't know, but agree she is suss. I'm equally prepared to believe GBC wasn't likely to say this to a perfect stranger but he sure must have thrown around some ordinary pick-up lines (eg "Kiss me" to which TM must have responded with "der ok this is just what my kids and husband and your wife and children need...." )

I look forward to the thorough psych test GBC now receives whether he wants it or not - whether we will ever be privy or not - just soooo needs to happen)

UOTE=Greg;10754211]does anyone know who the blonde nutjob was on the tv last night, the one with the rolling eyes? when they were showing the bad acting killers?

[/QUOTE]

http://samvak.tripod.com/npdglance.html

"The DSM-IV-TR defines Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) as "an all-pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behaviour), need for admiration or adulation and lack of empathy, usually beginning by early adulthood and present in various contexts", such as family life and work.

The DSM specifies nine diagnostic criteria. Five (or more) of these criteria must be met for a diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) to be rendered.

[In the text below, I have proposed modifications to the language of these criteria to incorporate current knowledge about this disorder. My modifications appear in bold italics.]

[My amendments do not constitute a part of the text of the DSM-IV-TR, nor is the American Psychiatric Association (APA) associated with them in any way.]

[Click here to download a bibliography of the studies and research regarding the Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) on which I based my proposed revisions.]

Proposed Amended Criteria for the Narcissistic Personality Disorder

Feels grandiose and self-important (e.g., exaggerates accomplishments, talents, skills, contacts, and personality traits to the point of lying, demands to be recognised as superior without commensurate achievements);
Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion;
Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions);
Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation – or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (Narcissistic Supply);
Feels entitled. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her unreasonable expectations for special and favourable priority treatment;
Is "interpersonally exploitative", i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends;
Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with, acknowledge, or accept the feelings, needs, preferences, priorities, and choices of others;
Constantly envious of others and seeks to hurt or destroy the objects of his or her frustration. Suffers from persecutory (paranoid) delusions as he or she believes that they feel the same about him or her and are likely to act similarly;
Behaves arrogantly and haughtily. Feels superior, omnipotent, omniscient, invincible, immune, "above the law", and omnipresent (magical thinking). Rages when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted by people he or she considers inferior to him or her and unworthy.

Treatment and Prognosis

The common treatment for patients with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is talk therapy (mainly psychodynamic psychotherapy or cognitive-behavioural treatment modalities). Talk therapy is used to modify the narcissist's antisocial, interpersonally exploitative, and dysfunctional behaviors, often with some success. Medication is prescribed to control and ameliorate attendant conditions such as mood disorders, or obsessive-compulsive disorders.

The prognosis for an adult suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is poor, though his adaptation to life and to others can improve with treatment."

 

[Opinionsgalore]

I really don't understand after all we have heard and found out during and after the trial that his family were 1. Shocked and 2. Still supporting him. His behaviour, attitudes to women, his double life and that he has lied to so many including them! This of course in addition to the murder.

Really?! I understand loving unconditionally, but I do not understand this almost approval and positive acceptance of his behaviour. It does not make any kind sense. It seems it was almost encouraged. If this was my son, I would be horrified and traumatised. I'd want to believe him, but really, it would be impossible in light of the facts.

Are they all narcissists? Are they in denial? What about the things he has actually admitted to? How do they process that?

Personally I believe his family 'made' him the way he is. IMO they would and could not entertain the fact that anyone would question the BC name. He would have admitted in a way that laid the blame at Allisons feet, and they would have accepted it, because, again, nothing must besmirch the family name.

 

[beechworth]

Agreed definite narcissistic personality traits if not full blown personality disorder.

Theodore Millon describes personality disorders in more comprehensive detail.

I thought this was especially relevant to the case....

"(F) Rationalization Regulatory Mechanism (e.g., is self-deceptive and facile in devising plausible reasons to justify self-centered and socially inconsiderate behaviors; offers alibis to place oneself in the best possible light, despite evident shortcomings or failures)."

I really think there is denial and he believes he is really a good person/outstanding character and is not in the wrong just a victim of circumstances...

And I think it runs in the family. NBC seems so arrogant and entitled. Even the fact that he corrected the pronunciation of his son's name. Oh please!! It's a murder trial!!

http://www.millon.net/taxonomy/narcissistic.htm