Why was JB killed?

[Meara]

I had read where Patsy was asked that question. I don't remember her exact words, but they were on the line of she'd never tolerate that. She also made a comment about Nedra sharing JB'e room, and anything like that would never get past her. I always wondered whether her comments about Nedra indicating maybe Nedra had had some problems if her own with her own daughters when they were young.

It's possible Don Paugh sexually abused one or more of his daughters. If so, I doubt it was Patsy. John Ramsey was 13 or 14 years older than she was, and women molested by their fathers tend not to marry older men who evoke the abusive father.

When Patsy was ill, she stayed in JAR's room. Nedra was there to help and slept next door in JBR's room, in the other twin bed. I'm guessing the arrangement was largely practical. Nedra could help Patsy in the night, if needed, and could also help JBR so that Patsy wouldn't be disturbed. When Patsy was asked whether she thought John had ever molested JBR, she pointed out that that couldn't have happened with Nedra in JBR's bedroom. That doesn't mean that Nedra slept there for that purpose (It also doesn't mean John wouldn't have had other opportunities to abuse JBR.). At the time JBR was murdered, Nedra hadn't stayed there for about two years, IIRC, so John could have had access to JBR at night. I hope I'm not missing the point of your comment.

Patsy's statement that she would never tolerate John's molesting JBR sounds convincing. However, she doesn't say what she would do about it, what form not tolerating it would take. Would she duke it out with John? Report him? Divorce him? Would she kill JBR to protect her, knowing she herself had a short life expectancy? Would she kill JBR and stage the scene to implicate John? If nothing else, you can always count on a histrionic for a choice of scenarios.

It's interesting that for the weeks leading up to that Christmas we hear both that Patsy was behaving erratically, with high irritability and mood swings, and also that JBR was very clingy with her. Usually, when one parent is being scary and unpredictable, a child will seek comfort and safety from the other parent. JBR didn't do that, though she reportedly loved her father very much. So you have to wonder what was going on. Was Patsy coming unglued because she had begun to suspect John was abusing JBR and wasn't sure what to do, and was that the same reason JBR was clinging to her mom? Of course, I don't know. I'm just noticing that those pieces fit together.

 

[dodie20]

It's possible Don Paugh sexually abused one or more of his daughters. If so, I doubt it was Patsy. John Ramsey was 13 or 14 years older than she was, and women molested by their fathers tend not to marry older men who evoke the abusive father.

When Patsy was ill, she stayed in JAR's room. Nedra was there to help and slept next door in JBR's room, in the other twin bed. I'm guessing the arrangement was largely practical. Nedra could help Patsy in the night, if needed, and could also help JBR so that Patsy wouldn't be disturbed. When Patsy was asked whether she thought John had ever molested JBR, she pointed out that that couldn't have happened with Nedra in JBR's bedroom. That doesn't mean that Nedra slept there for that purpose (It also doesn't mean John wouldn't have had other opportunities to abuse JBR.). At the time JBR was murdered, Nedra hadn't stayed there for about two years, IIRC, so John could have had access to JBR at night. I hope I'm not missing the point of your comment.

Patsy's statement that she would never tolerate John's molesting JBR sounds convincing. However, she doesn't say what she would do about it, what form not tolerating it would take. Would she duke it out with John? Report him? Divorce him? Would she kill JBR to protect her, knowing she herself had a short life expectancy? Would she kill JBR and stage the scene to implicate John? If nothing else, you can always count on a histrionic for a choice of scenarios.

It's interesting that for the weeks leading up to that Christmas we hear both that Patsy was behaving erratically, with high irritability and mood swings, and also that JBR was very clingy with her. Usually, when one parent is being scary and unpredictable, a child will seek comfort and safety from the other parent. JBR didn't do that, though she reportedly loved her father very much. So you have to wonder what was going on. Was Patsy coming unglued because she had begun to suspect John was abusing JBR and wasn't sure what to do, and was that the same reason JBR was clinging to her mom? Of course, I don't know. I'm just noticing that those pieces fit together.

good observations, especially about PR not tolerating the abuse. If you take it a step further, (which is where my mind has been going lately), say PR was coming unglued because she found out where friends were on to their family secrets. Even if the intervention was strictly about the pageants, it would have made PR extremely agitated to know that others were noticing problems and might speak to JB privately. She might have been thinking that the parents might put their foot down and say if they didn't see an improvement in JB, they would bring in outside help. If PR knew about the prior abuse, she knew the days of keeping this a family secret were numbered-because with all this outside interference, it WOULD come out. Really, there was nothing PR could do to fix this situation. She could stop the pageants, she could stop whoever was molesting JB, but it wouldn't change the fact that the damage was done, and there's no undoing that kind of damage. IMO, it looks like her house of cards might have been collapsing.

 

[PoeticJustice]

sorry to get a little off topic, but does anyone ever wonder if JR and/or BR reads these forums? to get an idea of what people are still talking about? it kinda freaks me out.

anyways, my theory is that BR had a mixture of issues the largest of those being a sexual curiosity involving his sister and power play and it ultimately resulted in her death, and the R's covering it up in order to preserve their image.

 

[Anyhoo]

good observations, especially about PR not tolerating the abuse. If you take it a step further, (which is where my mind has been going lately), say PR was coming unglued because she found out where friends were on to their family secrets. Even if the intervention was strictly about the pageants, it would have made PR extremely agitated to know that others were noticing problems and might speak to JB privately. She might have been thinking that the parents might put their foot down and say if they didn't see an improvement in JB, they would bring in outside help. If PR knew about the prior abuse, she knew the days of keeping this a family secret were numbered-because with all this outside interference, it WOULD come out. Really, there was nothing PR could do to fix this situation. She could stop the pageants, she could stop whoever was molesting JB, but it wouldn't change the fact that the damage was done, and there's no undoing that kind of damage. IMO, it looks like her house of cards might have been collapsing.

In that case murdering her daughter would be the least logical thing she could have done. Even vague suspicions of anything improper would come to crystal clarity. They didn't, which is why I think this whole line of thought is a dead end.

 

[txsvicki]

It seems like Patsy especially suspected everyone who may have been critical of her parenting and possible neglect. The housekeeper, Priscilla, Fleet, and maybe the Fernies.

 

[Anyhoo]

sorry to get a little off topic, but does anyone ever wonder if JR and/or BR reads these forums? to get an idea of what people are still talking about? it kinda freaks me out.

anyways, my theory is that BR had a mixture of issues the largest of those being a sexual curiosity involving his sister and power play and it ultimately resulted in her death, and the R's covering it up in order to preserve their image.

I have thought this same thing more than once about JR. I would bet money he lurks these forums.

 

[fruity]

The strangulation was no accident. The head bash maybe, but not the strangulation. It is the combination of the head bash and the strangulation that goes against this being an accident.

My theory is that the head bash was accidental, but the perp didn't realise she was still alive when they began to stage the scene. IMO the strangulation was part of the staging, so whether the head bash or strangulation killed her, neither was done to deliberately murder her. So both the strangulation and head bash come under 'accident' for me.

 

[txsvicki]

The only one I'd believe that thought JonBenet dead would be another child, and a child might come back to check on her and hear her gurgling if she weren't able to swallow saliva. I would love to know that evidence. If there was saliva or amylase on JonBenet's shirt or on the basement carpet. If there is none then someone must have been helping her. I read that people with head injury can appear to have cheynes stokes death rattle, but it is sometimes just saliva because they can't swallow.

 

[CherCher]

My theory is that the head bash was accidental, but the perp didn't realise she was still alive when they began to stage the scene. IMO the strangulation was part of the staging, so whether the head bash or strangulation killed her, neither was done to deliberately murder her. So both the strangulation and head bash come under 'accident' for me.

That very well could be. How tight was the ligature when JB's body was found?

 

[BBB167893]

If she was being abused, maybe she was getting to the age where she might start talking... just speculation.

Here's another idea: maybe she DID talk, to the wrong person.

 

[BBB167893]

Anyhoo, Dr. Beuf and his wife attended the same church as the Ramseys, IIRC. If he suspected something, his dual relationship put him in an awkward spot.

I believe the term is "conflict of interest."

 

[BBB167893]

I have often wondered whether Patsy suspected that John had begun molesting JBR, or was grooming her for that, and killed her to protect her. If Patsy's cancer returned and she died, she wouldn't be there to intervene. In the interview where Patsy says JBR would never have to suffer from cancer or know the death of a child, I wonder whether this other possibility of 'would never have to live through the nightmare of being sexually abused for years by her father' was lurking behind her words. Maybe JBR was killed not so much to protect a secret but to prevent her from living out that particular secret.

All that said, Patsy strikes me as a person with complex motives. She set great store by her Miss West Virginia title and would not have liked being replaced by this new little pageant winner daughter. Behind her words might also have been the thought, 'She'll never have to know what it's like to lose her looks and sexual vitality and her husband's interest to cancer like I did.'

Meara, do you believe that Patsy or one of her sisters experienced abuse by their father?

 

[eileenhawkeye]

It's been said that it was Nedra and Patsy's dream for JonBenet to be Miss America one day. However, it doesn't seem like Patsy was in any rush to have a daughter. She got married in 1980 and was pregnant with Burke in 1986. After Burke was born, it was 3 years before she got pregnant with JonBenet. So we are talking 10 years between the marriage and JonBenet's birth. For a family who wanted a "Miss America" badly, it was a while before they even had a possible contender.

Now, we never heard about Patsy having trouble getting pregnant, and I think we would have as this would create sympathy for her. I also read that Patsy tried to enter Melinda and Beth into pageant in the '80s but they weren't interested. Of course it's possible John wasn't interested in kids, but if Patsy wanted a baby, she would have one. (It actually wouldn't surprise me if John didn't want kids with Patsy due to his work, and that's why he was more upset about Beth's death than JonBenet's).

So is it possible that Patsy put off having a child for as long as possible because she knew that her child (or daughter) would end up being molested? Or that the demands of pageants would be too much? Why try to enter your stepdaughters into pageants, instead of having your own "mini me" to do so with?

 

[lawstudent]

As I said in another thread, I think way too many people focus on the scream when it's not even clear it was JB. Every theory is premised around her being hit due to a scream, it seems, in order to shut her up. That head bash is so insane that I don't think it could come from a fall - possibly someone whacking her trying just to make her quiet, but I don't think that should be the primary theory. It seems way more deliberate to me, unless it's something like Burke spinning her around by her ankles and she smashed into the wall. It was such a hard hit. I think there is more to it than simply trying to shut her up about abuse, but I don't know what.

 

[UKGuy]

As I said in another thread, I think way too many people focus on the scream when it's not even clear it was JB. Every theory is premised around her being hit due to a scream, it seems, in order to shut her up. That head bash is so insane that I don't think it could come from a fall - possibly someone whacking her trying just to make her quiet, but I don't think that should be the primary theory. It seems way more deliberate to me, unless it's something like Burke spinning her around by her ankles and she smashed into the wall. It was such a hard hit. I think there is more to it than simply trying to shut her up about abuse, but I don't know what.

lawstudent,
IMO the scream is alike the ransom note remove either and you are no further enlightened.

It is more helpful to focus on the forensic evidence and consider the main events took place upstairs and the staging downstairs.


.

 

[Mama2JML]

BBM

As I said in another thread, I think way too many people focus on the scream when it's not even clear it was JB. Every theory is premised around her being hit due to a scream, it seems, in order to shut her up. That head bash is so insane that I don't think it could come from a fall - possibly someone whacking her trying just to make her quiet, but I don't think that should be the primary theory. It seems way more deliberate to me, unless it's something like Burke spinning her around by her ankles and she smashed into the wall. It was such a hard hit. I think there is more to it than simply trying to shut her up about abuse, but I don't know what.

I agree. Chances are slim that an accident caused JonBenet's skull fracture(s). IMO.

A summary from Child Abuse and Neglect: Diagnosis, Treatment and Evidence describes common findings in head injuries sustained accidentally vs. deliberately:

Accidental skull fractures tend to have a characteristic radiographic appearance. They carry the label of simple skull fracture and appear as a thin, lucent (black) line, often located in the temporal/parietal area Much more worrisome are 'complex' skull fractures, which imply increased blunt force contact. These include skull fractures that have more than one fracture line (often with branching points), sometimes described as stellate or 'egg-shell' fractures. Fractures that cross suture lines, that are comminuted (multiple pieces), or that are depressed also raise the index of suspicion. Widened fracture margins (greater than 3 mm) and fractures originating from the occipital area are also concerning.

Jenny, C. (2010). Child abuse and neglect: diagnosis, treatment, and evidence. St. Louis: Elsevier Health Sciences.

From the autopsy report:

At the superior extension of the is area of hemorrhage is a linear to comminuted skull fracture which extends from the right occipital to posteroparietal area forward to the right frontal area across the parietal skull. In the posteroparietal area of this fracture is a roughly rectangular shaped displaced fragment of skull measuring one and three-quarters by one-half inch. The hemorrhage and the fracture extend posteriorly just past the midline of the occipital area of the skull. This fracture measures approximately 8.5 inches in length.

 

[lawstudent]

She was only hit once, right? They'd be able to tell if she had been hit more than once? Because I don't see how you don't have a plan to kill her and then hit her with the flashlight to shut her up and do that damage. It's seems more like someone trying to bludgeon her to death deliberately. Or you could try and argue she was strangled first and the headbash was a cover up if they initially wanted to stage an accident, but then the damage was not visible so they weren't sure what to do. It doesn't really add up to me regardless.

 

[ShadyLady]

I think she'd already talked recently about the sexual violations, resulting in the headbash done in a rage, then strangulation to keep her from ever telling again, because she was not dead yet.

I would like to know about the most resent visit to her Dr and what was the reason.

I too think she was at an age where she began talking and posed a danger to her abuser.

 

[taotoo]

Here's another idea: maybe she DID talk, to the wrong person.

Quite possibly.

I suppose ideally you silence her first. Otherwise not only is the damage already done, but you also become prime suspect in both the abuse and the murder.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I'm not convinced the head trauma was intentional. Well, let me rephrase that...it may have been intentional, but not done with the intention of killing her. What ultimately ended her life was strangulation, and that was obviously intentional. So, I'd have to say that she was murdered either to put an immediate end to a life that probably wasn't coming back anyway, or to hide the facts of what really happened that night. My best guess is that it's a combination of both of those reasons.
JMO