January 30, 1997 The following is a transcript of the opening of segment of "Dateline NBC" aired Tuesday night, January 28, 1997. It is presented here by permission and is copyrighted by NBC. Any use of this material must credit NBC. It is offered here simply as a convenience to members of the news media who've expressed interest in it, and we will have no comment on the substance of the interview.
SHOW: Dateline NBC
DATE: January 28, 1997
PROFILER
Announcer: From Studio 3B in Rockefeller Center, here is Jane Pauley.
JANE PAULEY: Good evening. In just a few minutes we'll have the latest on today's developments at the O.J. Simpson trial, and we'll hear, for the first time, what O.J. Simpson said during the Bronco chase. But first, an exclusive inside look into the investigation into the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. It comes from the man who helped invent the technique of criminal profiling. He's been brought into the case to create a profile of the person who murdered JonBenet. Now, more than a month since her murder, police have little new to say about the case, but this former FBI agent does. Here's Chris Hansen with tonight's DATELINE Exclusive.
Mr. JOHN DOUGLAS: I sat down across the table from some of the country's greatest liars--in the world, really--and I can sense it and if things just did not fit. The crime scene data just doesn't--doesn't fit.
CHRIS HANSEN reporting: (Voiceover) John Douglas, the pioneer of criminal personality profiling, is offering the first insiders view into the JonBenet Ramsey murder investigation. Douglas was called into the case, not by police, but by lawyers retained by the little girl's parents.
(Hansen and Douglas; JonBenet; JonBenet's parents)
HANSEN: Why did they hire you?
Mr. DOUGLAS: They hired me to, basically, do an independent analysis in hopes of determining who was responsible for the death of the daughter. And I said, `I will give you an independent analysis, but you may not like what I have to say.'
HANSEN: And that's because when he arrived here in Boulder he immediately suspected the Ramseys. Although Douglas was limited by authorities on what evidence he could see, he was allowed in the house. He was briefed on the autopsy report, and he saw a photocopy of the so-called ransom note. And most importantly he was given access to the Ramseys and experience told him, `Look very closely at the parents.'
(Voiceover) Mr. Douglas' 25 years of groundbreaking criminal profiling research with the FBI led to important breaks in dozens of major cases. He studied and interviewed scores of serial killers. He accurately profiled the Unabomber suspect years ago, and he was the inspiration for the character of agent Jack Crawford in the film "The Silence of the Lambs." Douglas' new book, "Journey Into Darkness," was written before JonBenet Ramsey was murdered, but for him, the Ramsey case was like so many others. He first focused on the victim.
(FBI Academy; Douglas driving; scene from "Silence of the Lambs"; book; photo of JonBenet)
DOUGLAS: When you look at the victim you ask yourself the question, `Why was this victim the victim of a violent crime?' This is a low-risk victim--I mean, killed in her home, taken from her bed, and disposed of--placed in the--in the cellar.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) The basic facts of the case are well known. Six-year-old JonBenet Ramsey was put to bed around 9:00 Christmas night. The next morning her mother, Patsy, says she finds a ransom note and discovers that JonBenet is missing. Hours later the father, John Ramsey, finds his daughter strangled in the basement of efforts the house.
(JonBenet singing; Ramsey house)
Mr. DOUGLAS: Generally speaking, when--when you do have homicides perpetrated in a residents the primary suspects will always and should be family.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) Although the Boulder Police Department is releasing no information about the investigation, Douglas says it was clear to him that the Ramseys were the chief suspects when he arrived. So, for Douglas, it was critically important to interview the parents.
(Police department; Ramseys talking to bishop)
HANSEN: How much time did you spend talking to Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey?
Mr. DOUGLAS: About four or five hours.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) For Douglas, that interview, two weeks after JonBenet was found murdered would prove to be crucial in forming his opinions, because he knew that whoever committed the crime had to have intimate knowledge of the Ramseys' million dollar home.
(Douglas; Ramsey house)
Mr. DOUGLAS: I was really surprised when I--when I went in the house, because it is and so compartmentalized. There's 15 rooms.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) The parents' bedroom is on the third floor. From there, two staircases lead down to the four bedrooms on the second floor where JonBenet and her nine-year-old brother were sleeping.
(Inside Ramsey home)
Mr. DOUGLAS: What s--struck me as really unusual is that--is that the--the bedrooms--the family's, mother and father's bedrooms were so far away on that third floor that even if you weren't a sound sleeper, to have difficulty hearing any noise on the second floor, because it is so far removed.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) The Ramseys told Douglas that they all went to bed very early Christmas night, because they were planning to fly to their other home in Michigan the next morning.
(Ramsey home)
Mr. DOUGLAS: Mr. Ramsey gets up, takes a. The mother gets up to go downstairs to make some coffee. Goes down the st--spiral staircase. The last step, there's three pages of the letter, starts reading it, doesn't know what it is, then--and then she starts screaming. And Mr. Ramsey comes down, and--and, you know, the instructions are, don't contact the FBI, don't contact the police.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) But the police are called. They search the house, but don't check a small basement room. Hours later a distraught John Ramsey goes to the basement and discovers his daughter's body.
(Ramsey home)
Mr. DOUGLAS: And everyone hears him screaming upstairs, `My God, my baby!' And--and grabs the child, removes the duct tape, and then carries the child up stairs where they're trying to resuscitate the--the child.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) The Ramseys described to Douglas the horrific details of what they said happened in those next few frantic moments.
(Ramsey home)
Mr. DOUGLAS: It was a real emotional scene as for the family putting a child down in front of the Christmas tree as they're trying to, you know, rub the shower skin, the body is--the body is cold. And ever--the mother is hysterical, the father's hysterical, the minister's there, and the neighbors are running in and out. And so there really isn't a crime scene.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) The crime scene and JonBenet's body were now contaminated by the family's desperate to help the little girl. But Douglas says the parents' story contains important clues.
(Police carrying body away)
Mr. DOUGLAS: Generally, if a parent kills the child they don't want to be the one to find the child. If they do search, say, in a--in a residence, they'll get someone else to say, `OK, Frank, you check this room, I'll be over here checking the other room.' The other thing you look at is how the child is left. When--when parents kill, they usually place the child in a very, very peaceful type of look to it. They--they stage the crime scene.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) Douglas says JonBenet was brutalized, that she had duct tape on her mouth. She suffered severe head wounds. And she was strangled and sexually assaulted.
(Police taking body away)
HANSEN: Let me read you a passage from your book. As horrible unnatural as it is to contemplate, parents do kill their children for a variety of reasons, and normally when they do so they report them missing or abducted, leaving a staged scene.
Mr. DOUGLAS: Right.
HANSEN: Isn't it possible that that very passage could apply to this case?
Mr. DOUGLAS: I didn't see staging there by--by parents. II've never seen where they put a ligature around a child's neck or have duct tape over the face and--and left in that--in that condition. I just--I just haven't--haven't seen that at all.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) And Douglas says the interview with the parents, which lasted more than four hours, was what ultimately turned him around.
(Ramseys)
Mr. DOUGLAS: While I'm looking at this--this--this man, Mr. Ramsey, `. Ramsey, if you did it you are one hell of a liar. You--you are one hell of a liar if you did it. And you're putting on a great production here.' But I just don't believe, in my heart, he did this--and not just in my heart, from what--from the analysis of the--of the scene.
HANSEN: But you're being paid by the Ramsey family?
Mr. DOUGLAS: Right. You can pay me for my time, but you're not going to pay for my opinion or pay for my--or jeopardize my reputation.
HANSEN: Are you convinced, based upon your experience, that the parents were not involved in the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?
Mr. DOUGLAS: What I've seen and experienced, I--I say they were not involved.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) But if that's the case, it raises more questions. So far, the parents have yet to give a formal interview to investigators.
(Crime scene)
HANSEN: Your child is killed and you're not going to talk to police?
Mr. DOUGLAS: They did talk to the police the day the child was--was murdered, or located and--and discovered to be murdered. They did do the interview. They did give the--the hair evidence and blood evidence.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) Douglas says the Ramseys told him they felt they were the chief suspects, especially after Boulder officials assured the public that there was no killer on the loose.
(Press conference)
Mr. DOUGLAS: What they were saying was, `We got the people, they're the Ramseys. We got them.' So I would have gotten an--wazzu attorneys to represent me, and they did the right thing.
HANSEN: Did you advise the Ramseys not to take a polygraph?
Mr. DOUGLAS: Right. I--I advised the--the attorneys that they should not be polygraphed; maybe later on, but not at this point in time. It's too close. They're still going through a lot of mourning.
HANSEN: If Douglas feels that the Ramseys are not suspects, though, then who is? Douglas told DATELINE that the three-page note left on a staircase inside the Ramseys' home is the key piece of evidence. Douglas feels the note was written as an afterthought, and that the ransom figure mentioned is an extremely important clue.
The so-called ransom note that was left at the Ramseys' home, demands $118,000. And we now know that $118,000 is the amount of the bonus John Ramsey was expecting this year. What does that say to you?
Mr. DOUGLAS: Well, who has this knowledge? The wife didn't have the knowledge. She doesn't know anything about that. This is money that's electronically placed in his 401(k) at the end of the--at the end of the year. So, to me, it's kind of like the manifesto and the Unabomber. It begins to tell me more about the person who's responsible. This person has very unique, intimate knowledge about his--his financial workings. Therefore, the person would have to be somehow related to his--his employment.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) Mr. Ramsey knew about the bonus, it had been deposited into his account months before. But Douglas thinks the ransom note and the murder could be the work of an angry ex-employee. The note has raised many questions, but Douglas doesn't see much importance in reports that there was evidence of a practice note in the home, possibly in a woman's handwriting. But Douglas does think that from all he's been told by the Ramseys and others, it's important there was no sign of forced entry and that the killer had to be bold enough to take JonBenet from her bedroom, and then go down two flights of stairs, and risk getting cornered in the basement.
(Outside of Ramseys' home; people entering home; outside)
Mr. DOUGLAS: This tells me this is again a certain breed of cat, a high-risk type of an offender. But to Mr. Ramsey, it--it--it is somebody who he knows, he knows very, very well, and the anger and aggression is directed at him more so than--than--than the wife.
HANSEN: But if somebody is so mad at John Ramsey, why not kill John Ramsey? Why go after and strangle and apparently sexually assault a six-year-old girl?
Mr. DOUGLAS: Because if they're following the press and what's going on in Boulder, there's been a lot of publicity that the child is a precious possession of the Ramseys, and what better way to get back at the Ramseys is--is to kill that child.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) Douglas says he has provided a much more detailed profile of possible suspects to Boulder police who have been working with the FBI. Today, Boulder police spokesman Kelvin McNeal confirmed the department received Douglas' information, but said detectives are not ready to say if it has influenced their investigation.
(Douglas; Boulder police station: McNeal talking with Hansen)
Mr. KELVIN McNEAL: This is a murder investigation, and it is important that our investigating remain extremely focused, and that focus is on finding out who's responsible and securing a successful prosecution.
HANSEN: (Voiceover) But Douglas remains focused on a piece of evidence that continues to haunt him--the three-page note apparently left by the killer.
(Hansen and Douglas walking at night)
Mr. DOUGLAS: Again, I am very prejudiced because of the amount of money, the 118,000. Is that just a--a fluke, is that--is that just luck that they picked that money--that--that amount of money? I don't think so.
PAULEY: John Douglas believes that going public with as much information as possible is the best way to solve this kind of case. When Douglas was still with the FBI, he once had investigators put up a billboard with a copy of a ransom note. He says, within hours, someone recognized the handwriting, and police arrested a suspect.
Announcer: This is DATELINE Tuesday for January 28th, with reports tonight from Sara James and Chris Hansen. Still ahead: the O.J. Simpson civil trial goes to the jurors, and their job won't be easy.
January 18, 1997 The following statement was issued on January 18, 1997 by Patrick Korten on behalf of the Ramsey family:
Following is the text of a letter that was sent by Attorney William R. Gray, a partner in the firm of Purvis, Gray, Schuetze & Gordon, on behalf of John and Patsy Ramsey, to Michael Kahane, General Counsel for Globe Communications Corporation. The letter was transmitted to the Globe by fax on Wednesday, January 15, 1997. It represents the only statement we will be issuing on this matter.