You can't do what you don't know.....

[Ames]

Ha! You got that right....it's been at least l0 years, back to when Murphy had the forum (whatever happened to Murphy?), and then Jameson split off...even before that when Misty was on compuserve on the Crime forum. I think that was the first one I stumbled across, and at the time I was a bit critical about the pageant thing drawing attention to JBR, but never thought it was the Ramseys--I knew too much about the Boulder environment, and the resentment against the technology companies and nuevo rich moving in. A lot of people have come and gone...lost interest...some died. A Candy Rose has an exceptionally well-documented website on the past posters.

I don't have visions...and my life the last year and a l/2 hasn't been that entertaining, since I retired early to take care of an elderly parent just about 24/7. My bad attempts at cooking, cleaning, taking care of a house etc. aren't too entertaining. I do have some experience now with incontinence issues, and things like Depends are godsends. Not unlike pullups used on JBR. I haven't come close to a homicidal rage when my dad has an accident.....and I don't have LHP coming in 3 days a week.

My dad's step-mom...omg, that woman was SOOOOOO mean. My grand-daddy died at 95 years old. His wife...was alot younger than him...he married her when she was only 13, and he was 21. ANYWAY....the last years of his life, everytime he (my grandfather) would have an accident, she would whip him with a belt or with a stick. He had switch marks on his legs...when he was put into his casket. I could go on and on about that witch...she finally died....I hate to say this...but, THANK GOODNESS, but not before she put him through hell.

 

[Ames]

Thanks Ames. I don't believe in being confrontational..what's the point? In the whole scheme of things, the case doesn't affect most of us directly--but for whatever reason, those still posting have an interest in it, albeit we may not agree on who did it.

You are welcome...I meant every word of it.

 

[BBB167893]

Thanks Ames. I don't believe in being confrontational..what's the point? In the whole scheme of things, the case doesn't affect most of us directly--but for whatever reason, those still posting have an interest in it, albeit we may not agree on who did it.

Ah, I would argue that the case does have an effect on us. In my opinion, this case is indicative of the way the legal system is going, a direction I just flat-out do not like.

 

[DeeDee249]

Ha! You got that right....it's been at least l0 years, back to when Murphy had the forum (whatever happened to Murphy?), and then Jameson split off...even before that when Misty was on compuserve on the Crime forum. I think that was the first one I stumbled across, and at the time I was a bit critical about the pageant thing drawing attention to JBR, but never thought it was the Ramseys--I knew too much about the Boulder environment, and the resentment against the technology companies and nuevo rich moving in. A lot of people have come and gone...lost interest...some died. A Candy Rose has an exceptionally well-documented website on the past posters.

I don't have visions...and my life the last year and a l/2 hasn't been that entertaining, since I retired early to take care of an elderly parent just about 24/7. My bad attempts at cooking, cleaning, taking care of a house etc. aren't too entertaining. I do have some experience now with incontinence issues, and things like Depends are godsends. Not unlike pullups used on JBR. I haven't come close to a homicidal rage when my dad has an accident.....and I don't have LHP coming in 3 days a week.

I've been there, too. More difficult for my dad than it was for me. The elderly try to retain their dignity, right to the end.

 

[Tadpole12]

That was a really good link--I bookmarked it. Some interesting tidbits:

. [The film draws parallels with an actual series of murders committed by a gunman (the so-called Zodiac serial-killer) in the San Francisco Bay area in the late 1960s. The astrological name Scorpio, and the killer's taunting with coded, written notes are just a few of the similarities between the film's account and the real case. The Zodiac murderer was never identified or caught, however.]

This was the first of many hard-hitting, action-packed sequels starring maverick, renegade cop Inspector "Dirty" Harry Callahan ("Inspector 71") who was famous for sarcastic one-liners, portrayed by steely-eyed Clint Eastwood in a career-boosting role.

Also:
"If I even think you're being followed, the girl dies. If you talk to anyone, I don't care if it's a Pekinese pissing against a lamppost, the girl dies...No car. I give you a certain amount of time to go from phone booth to phone booth. I ring four times. You don't answer by the fourth ring, I hang up and that's the end of the game. The girl dies...Cop!...I hope you're not stupid."

And this reminds me of Steve Thomas...:

After having found retribution his own extra-legal way by exterminating the heartless and sick terrorist, without following bureaucratic police procedures, he thoughtfully hurls his police badge (Inspector 2211, SF Police) into the stagnant pond with the body and then walks away. Knowing that he will ultimately be reprimanded and fired for his action, the unrepentant Harry 'throws away' the symbol of his future police career in disgust. [This scene pays homage to the final scene of High Noon (1952) when the lone Marshal contemptuously discards his badge in the dust after being betrayed by the entire Western community.]

The Ramsey ransom note was based on movie lines and themes. If this was a kidnapping gone bad, and they had been able to take JBR out of the house, and JR would have paid the ransom without calling police, and JBR would have been returned, this would have been a big adverture, and no one worse off except JR out of $118,000 (if it would have ended at that).

Also forgot to mention "Ricochet". Another movie reference. There was a magazine article found at the Ramseys house with his picture amoung others as entrepreneur of the year, except JR's pic had an X on it--similar to a closeup of a picture in Ricochet, in the perp's jail cell. I thought at first that was a red herring the police were using, but I think there was in fact a marked up picture found. Richochet was all about revenge.

There were just too many movie reference in this crime, and the perp had to have an interest in this---and most likely someone on the younger side. In the pre-planning stage, I believe the perp(s) relished his cleverness in coming up with the note.

Maikai has been around FOREVER - RR

Hi Maikai ..... FOREVER .... s'cool .....

"too many movie reference in this crime" .... perfect misdirection.
I can't help but see the rn from that fanascist angle. The 'mal-french'.
essay.


Callahan, he was the utilmate for the time; vigilante justice, as you describe, walking off .. that lone figure.
I'll have to check out Ricochet, again.

I have read of the X-ed out photo of JR. Don't know what to make of that.

I don't think the perp came into the house with the intention of killing JBR or even sexually assaulting her. Something went wrong in the basement....most likely the least part of a kidnapping that is thought out--how they would get the victim away.

That's about as far as my IDI scenario has ever progressed. A burglary gone wrong. Someone who knew the Rs would be at the Whites ... and that the house would be empty. Looking for stacks of cash. That 2 man operation which PR suggests.

 

[Sophie]

Thanks Ames. I don't believe in being confrontational..what's the point? In the whole scheme of things, the case doesn't affect most of us directly--but for whatever reason, those still posting have an interest in it, albeit we may not agree on who did it.

Maikai, the debate on here staggers me: the polite agreement to disagree is miles away from the flaming that stopped me posting for the best part of a decade! You certainly keep my thinking from running in tramlines, for which I thank you.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

This is classic RDI. The assertion is that the Ramsey's rented movies, therefore they had seen and were inspired by the movie Ransom, which was #1 at the time. Reminds me of the '2.89 receipt' logic where a receipt for an item of the same price as black duct tape is concluded to be for tape. Nobody really knows if they bought tape or not. There's lots of stuff sells for the same price, nobody knows how many items. Could be 100's.


Question for NJ: Do you know for a fact that the R's had ever even seen Ransom at the time their daughter was murdered, or are you just throwing that out there on probability? I mean, it was #1, they rented movies, so they had to have seen it, right?

I've never seen Ransom. It has Harrison Ford in it, right?






Wow. There are 1000's of examples worldwide of brutal, vicious murders where the killer did not know the victim more than a few hours.

Where do you get your facts, anyway?

Well just to get it straight, I actually don't believe this was a brutal murder. Maikai thinks it was. IMO this was an accident covered to LOOK like a brutal murder. But yes, I've watched enough cold case and detective files (the real life ones) to know that victims of brutal crimes are usually connected to the murderer. This wasn't a brutal killer, she/he wrapped her victim in her favorite blanket with her favorite nightie on top and hide her in a back room. He/she also wiped her down.

As for the Ransom movie, Maikai refrenced whoever committed this crime had an interest in extortion movies. Most people didn't RENT Ransom because it was a movie about extortion they rented it because Mel Gibson was and is a huge star. Fact is ANYONE could have seen that movie including the Ramsey's. Just because a word was refrenced in the ransom note doesn't mean the killer was into extortion.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

I know what Maikai means, but to me, emphasising this whole study of the behavioural pathology of the Ramseys and the discussion of movies and the window of opportunity for the crime is to ignore the fact that the same issues apply to an intruder - only more so given that the 'intruder' was operating in an alien environment. . An intruder only had 8 hours to write a ransom note (plus practice notes), dispense with JBR, escape without a trace, feed JBR pineapple, etcetera ad infinitum. Equally, given that the intruder had to know the Ramseys, who within their circle had any criminal antecedents? In fact, who anywhere ever has committed a crime quite like the JBR murder? If you are going to talk about the Ramseys' past, you have also to accept that no other criminal had likely form. IOW, these arguments cut both ways.

Sophie excellent point and one that fails to define the logic used by the Intruder theroists.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

They had not seen "Ransom." "Dirty Harry" movie lines were in the note....I think that was from the 70's, and a classic. It had been on TV. John Ramsey said "Speed" was on a plane one time, but he didn't have the earpieces. Most of that note was movie lines...except for the last sarcastic part, which I think was adlibbed on the spot. The rest of it, had been thought out before.

The Boulder Camera had a movie line contest every year, with the results published in January. I think the ransom note idea could have come from that.

Other possibilities of movies could be "Seven" with Kevin Spacey (ie: reference to beheading and proper burial). Also, the movie with Bett Midler where she is kidnapped..forget the name.

I think the perp was proud of his cleverness with the note...but it indicates someone that had seen these movies.

yeah and he sat around at the Ramsey home thinking about them to include them in the letter, instead of saying, Taken Kid bring money. Boy crafty guy wasn't he? Those movie lines made him sound all authentic.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

I've never seen Ransom. It has Harrison Ford in it, right?

/QUOTE]

Mel Gibson was the father in the movie, and a mulit-millionaire who started an airlines from nothing. Gary Sinese played the cop/detective turned bad. He targeted Mel Gibson because of a union disagreement, where Mel Gibson made a payout to settle it---he was never indicted for that, and the union guy was in prison. It made the news at the time. He told Mel Gibson the reason he picked him was he paid to get out of trouble.

At one point Gibson asked the FBI guy--why only $2M? Don't they know I'm worth a lot more? FBI responded that it was smart---they knew he had it and could come up with it easily. They had Gibson jumping through hoops to deliver the money, and he was to put it in a "suitcase."

Sinese played a sarcastic smart-@ss....and repeatedly called Gibson by his first name--not unlike the sarcasm in the ransom note.

The ransom note follows "Dirty Harry." At one time I watched the movie and made a list of the similarities, but it's stored on a floppy and I have a different computer with CD's...I may resurrect it sometime. However, in the beginning they flash the extortion note on a big screen. There's a reference to the perp calling at a certain time. (8?) It then has Clint going through hoops to deliver the money...and the references to a dog peeing.

I can't recall movie lines on the spot.....Patsy never saw these movies...so how could she come up with the lines? Makes no sense.

Maikai how do you know Patsy never saw these movies?because she said so?

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Before I get started, Maikai, I think it's helpful to remember who you're talking to. I used to be a very strong IDI. VERY strong. Obviously, that's done with now, and if you'de like to know why, I'd be happy to go over it (AGAIN), but for now, it's enough to know that I've been the route, and have made these arguments in the past.



That's fairly clear.



Not ALL. Most, I would imagine.



Plenty of time. Take it from a salesman: 8 hours is a loooong time.



You might as well move on.



Movie lines are all over the place, Maikai. Heaven only knows how many I can list off the top of my head.



Actually, the knots were very simple. Any dope could have made them.



There's no evidence a stun gun WAS used. And I'm not just talking out my *advertiser censored** here. I happen to own one. And I've had myself zapped several times to see if it was a viable theory. Let's just say the results were part-in-parcel to my conversion...



Someone sure tried to make it LOOK brutal, certainly.



Whomever did this didn't have a criminal mind, either! It was amateur night; you could tell. This was not a perfect murder by design; it was a perfect murder (or almost perfect) by luck.



It was, but in a much different way than you're thinking.



What do you think I've been doing for the last 12 years?

In addition to luck Ramsey's name and money helped out too, otherwise they wouldn't have had the luxury to trample around in the crime scene. And also fortunatley for the Ramsey's they fell into the hands of an inexperienced police department. Now that was LUCK.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

John Ramseys elder son said that his family was JUST LIKE the one in the movie "Ransom."

I will have to find the quote but believe its in ST book.

Never heard that, but if so that's interesting. Why do we never hear about JAR?

 

[BBB167893]

In addition to luck Ramsey's name and money helped out too, otherwise they wouldn't have had the luxury to trample around in the crime scene. And also fortunatley for the Ramsey's they fell into the hands of an inexperienced police department. Now that was LUCK.

Some people make their own luck.

 

[jat]

Reddened by Ames..
Boy, ain't THAT the truth. I have hashed and re-hashed this with Maikai, until I am blue in the face. I give up. Apparently Maikai hasn't done the research that we all have.

This post is very condescending. That's all I am going to say.

 

[Ames]

This post is very condescending. That's all I am going to say.

It is the truth...and you failed to mention the post where I say that Maikai is probably the friendliest IDI that I have ever posted with...and that is also the truth. Post #10 of this thread...

 

[Thinaire]

Never heard that, but if so that's interesting. Why do we never hear about JAR?

Or Grandpa Paugh....

 

[Ames]

Or Grandpa Paugh....

I have often wondered why Grand-Paugh, never went public looking for the killer of his grand-daughter. Neither, he nor Nedra did...
They never did an interview, for a magazine or tv, or radio...asking people for information (if they had any) in the death of JB.

 

[Sophie]

I have often wondered why Grand-Paugh, never went public looking for the killer of his grand-daughter. Neither, he nor Nedra did...
They never did an interview, for a magazine or tv, or radio...asking people for information (if they had any) in the death of JB.

Must say, he and Polly seem to have kept their silence and been almost ignored from the investigative p.o.v. I don't mean that they weren't eliminated but I do wonder how much they were interrogated about family dynamics etc. Pam seems to have been the fount of all knowledge from the LE standpoint which doesn't make too much sense.

 

[Ames]

Must say, he and Polly seem to have kept their silence and been almost ignored from the investigative p.o.v. I don't mean that they weren't eliminated but I do wonder how much they were interrogated about family dynamics etc. Pam seems to have been the fount of all knowledge from the LE standpoint which doesn't make too much sense.

I wonder just how many times they WERE interrogated/questioned? I am betting only once.

 

[JMO8778]

while I don't think that Patsy made a flat-out confession to them,I do believe the rest of her family figured out very early on that she did it.(with Nedra even saying the RN looked like Patsy's handwriting).And there was a mutual understanding between all of them that she had done it.