You can't do what you don't know.....

[Ames]

while I don't think that Patsy made a flat-out confession to them,I do believe the rest of her family figured out very early on that she did it.(with Nedra even saying the RN looked like Patsy's handwriting).And there was a mutual understanding between all of them that she had done it.

ITA! I believe that they all knew. And Pam, well...she sure acted strange didn't she? When she slipped into the Ramsey's home, and made off with some evidence...and then she got the driver (I believe it was a policeman, or investigator...my memory fails me right now)...to take her to McDonalds for a Happy Meal and diet coke. (Who could EAT at a time like this? That was weird)..and then there was the latex gloves incident...screaming .."TAKE THEM OFF! TAKE THEM OFF!" Like they were snakes attached to her fingers, or something. Something just isn't right with all of that...IMO

 

[JMO8778]

ITA! I believe that they all knew. And Pam, well...she sure acted strange didn't she? When she slipped into the Ramsey's home, and made off with some evidence...and then she got the driver (I believe it was a policeman, or investigator...my memory fails me right now)...to take her to McDonalds for a Happy Meal and diet coke. (Who could EAT at a time like this? That was weird)..and then there was the latex gloves incident...screaming .."TAKE THEM OFF! TAKE THEM OFF!" Like they were snakes attached to her fingers, or something. Something just isn't right with all of that...IMO

and she lied to the driver,saying she was a millionaire by age 30 (yet had the driver pay for her meal),when she really just worked in a dept. store.that's where she got the makeup samples Patsy mentioned in her interview.
PP's behavior and the fact they all absorbed that Patsy had done it.. so early on..says a lot of unspoken things must have happened in the Paugh household over the yrs,IMO.They grasped that concept pretty quickly,and it didn't just come out of thin air.

 

[DeeDee249]

I have always been suspicious of the complete absence of PR's sister Polly from the case and investigation over the years. Let's face it, NONE of the family has been very vocal about it. But PR's other sister is virtually invisible on the matter. I agree that most of them accept that it was an accident, staged to look like a murder, to spare PR (who they knew would eventually succumb to her cancer) the unbearable grief of either a trial, conviction, or public shame. (though she kinda had that anyway). And to spare BR from having his family go through that.

 

[JMO8778]

ITA! I believe that they all knew. And Pam, well...she sure acted strange didn't she? When she slipped into the Ramsey's home, and made off with some evidence...and then she got the driver (I believe it was a policeman, or investigator...my memory fails me right now)...to take her to McDonalds for a Happy Meal and diet coke. (Who could EAT at a time like this? That was weird)..and then there was the latex gloves incident...screaming .."TAKE THEM OFF! TAKE THEM OFF!" Like they were snakes attached to her fingers, or something. Something just isn't right with all of that...IMO

and the part where she had to pump herself up..saying 'I CAN DO THIS,I CAN DO THIS!!!' ..what would there be to get pumped up about if all she was doing was going after funeral clothes??? but she knew it was MUCH more than that!

 

[Ames]

I have always been suspicious of the complete absence of PR's sister Polly from the case and investigation over the years. Let's face it, NONE of the family has been very vocal about it. But PR's other sister is virtually invisible on the matter. I agree that most of them accept that it was an accident, staged to look like a murder, to spare PR (who they knew would eventually succumb to her cancer) the unbearable grief of either a trial, conviction, or public shame. (though she kinda had that anyway). And to spare BR from having his family go through that.

Polly is so invisible from the case, that I had forgotten that Patsy and Pam had another sister. It's funny that you posted this, because just this morning, it suddenly hit me...and I was like..."Oh my gosh, I totally forgot about Patsy's other sister", and then for the life of me, I couldn't remember what her name was. I appreciate the post...its almost like you read my mind.

 

[Ames]

and the part where she had to pump herself up..saying 'I CAN DO THIS,I CAN DO THIS!!!' ..what would there be to get pumped up about if all she was doing was going after funeral clothes??? but she knew it was MUCH more than that!

I agree. Why would she have had to pump herself up, just to go in and grab some funeral clothes? (And baby teeth, and passports, and paintings, and JB's dolls.....)

 

[Maikai]

and the part where she had to pump herself up..saying 'I CAN DO THIS,I CAN DO THIS!!!' ..what would there be to get pumped up about if all she was doing was going after funeral clothes??? but she knew it was MUCH more than that!

She didn't want to return to the house at all--not unlike JR and PR, considering what happened there--I believe that is the reason for the statement. She didn't just get funeral clothes. The Ramseys were not going to return to the house...she quickly got things they would need, like charge cards.

 

[Maikai]

Maikai how do you know Patsy never saw these movies?because she said so?

Yes. Also, Steve Thomas wouldn't have missed a chance to spin it, if he could have found any evidence or anyone that indicated Patsy saw these movies, or expressed an interest in them.

 

[Maikai]

Maikai, the debate on here staggers me: the polite agreement to disagree is miles away from the flaming that stopped me posting for the best part of a decade! You certainly keep my thinking from running in tramlines, for which I thank you.

You're welcome. There are some JBR websites that scare the bejesus out of me, and I don't bother with because of the flaming and downright viciousness.

 

[Maikai]

yeah and he sat around at the Ramsey home thinking about them to include them in the letter, instead of saying, Taken Kid bring money. Boy crafty guy wasn't he? Those movie lines made him sound all authentic.

My theory on the movie lines is it made the note so Boulder. By that I mean, Boulder is not your typical all American city. It was the home of the Rainbow hippies in the 60's and 70's with a lot of eccentrics and various subcultures still around in the 90's. It became a town of those that have, and those that don't....with not much of a middle class. There were a lot of transcients on University Hill--they had goten pushed out of Pearl Street. This new crop were not the peace-loving hippies of the past. Drug use, violent assaults, and burglaries were increasing. Even Steve Thomas remarked on that, in a Daily Camera article prior to the murder. The Ramseys lived right in the middle of a variety of people--not in a gated community.

I think the perp(s) had a great time coming up with the movie line note, and thought they were being clever. I don't think it was thought up on the spot....but some thought had been put into it before......wouldn't surprise me that it was written out beforehand, and then the last part adlibbed, and rewritten because they had the time. There were a couple places on the note left, where it looked like the note was copied and the perp lost his/her place. ie: crossoff of delivery and pickup inserted. Also, a word was inserted with an arrow--think it was "not."

 

[TinaD]

I have often wondered why Grand-Paugh, never went public looking for the killer of his grand-daughter. Neither, he nor Nedra did...
They never did an interview, for a magazine or tv, or radio...asking people for information (if they had any) in the death of JB.

I'm very suspicious about his role in things as well - not the murder per se, but any abuse before it. How many people plan to travel home on standby on Christmas Eve (at least I think it was Christmas Eve). What was he doing there and why did he leave so abruptly? Is there a connection to the call to police on the 23rd? So many questions...

 

[Ames]

She didn't want to return to the house at all--not unlike JR and PR, considering what happened there--I believe that is the reason for the statement. She didn't just get funeral clothes. The Ramseys were not going to return to the house...she quickly got things they would need, like charge cards.

And PASSPORTS. Yep, that certainly sounds like something that I would need, if my child had of been found dead in MY basement. Maikai...I will see if I can find a PARTIAL list of the things that Pam took, and it was way more than charge cards. How do you explain the fact that she was creeped out by the latex gloves...screaming..."Take them off! Take them off!" And telling the driver to take her to McDonalds for a Happy Meal and coke...I don't know about you, but I certainly wouldn't have been able to eat, if my niece had just been found dead in my sister's basement. But...that's just me. And the last thing on my mind if I had just found my daughter dead in my basement...would be my Nordstrom credit card. Do you NOT find that strange...???

From Steve Thomas' Book...
Reddened and Bolded by Ames...

04-18-2000 Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation"

Page 51:

"Patrol Officer Angie Chromiak told me later that when she showed up to pull a security shift at Tin Cup circle, she was ordered by police headquarters to ferry Pam Paugh over to fifteenth Street to collect some clothing that John, Patsy, and Burke Ramsey could war to the funeral. Even that decision, as kind as it might have been to grieving parents, was questionable, for nothing should be removed from an active crime scene."

ST (HB) Page 52:

"She spent an hour on her first trip through the crime scene and emerged with a big cardboard box filled to the brim, which she plopped into the trunk of the police car. For the next several hours, Pam made about half a dozen trips through the bouse, often spending an hour or more inside, and hauled out suitcases, boxes, bags, and loose items until the backseat of the police car was stuffed like a steamer trunk."

"Pam's last trip was into the bedroom of JonBenet, and she pumped herself up again; "I can do this, I can do this, I can do this." She came back carrying an armload of stuffed animals and other items from the first room in the house to have been sealed off by police."

"Everett kept only a general inventory of what was removed, and even that abbreviated listing was astonishing.Stuffed animals, tiaras, three dresses for JonBenet, pageant photo portfolios, toys and clothes for Burke, John Ramsey's Daytime, the desk Bible, and clothing. For Patsy, there were black pants, dress suits, boots, and the contents of the curio cabinet. Bills, credit cards, a black cashmere trench coat, jewelry that included her grandmother's ring and an emerald necklace, bathrobes, a cell phone, personal papers, bank records, Christmas stockings, her Nordstrom's credit card, and even their passports. The patrol car was loaded with zipped bags, boxes, sacks, and luggage, the true contents unknown."

 

[Ames]

My theory on the movie lines is it made the note so Boulder. By that I mean, Boulder is not your typical all American city. It was the home of the Rainbow hippies in the 60's and 70's with a lot of eccentrics and various subcultures still around in the 90's. It became a town of those that have, and those that don't....with not much of a middle class. There were a lot of transcients on University Hill--they had goten pushed out of Pearl Street. This new crop were not the peace-loving hippies of the past. Drug use, violent assaults, and burglaries were increasing. Even Steve Thomas remarked on that, in a Daily Camera article prior to the murder. The Ramseys lived right in the middle of a variety of people--not in a gated community.

I think the perp(s) had a great time coming up with the movie line note, and thought they were being clever. I don't think it was thought up on the spot....but some thought had been put into it before......wouldn't surprise me that it was written out beforehand, and then the last part adlibbed, and rewritten because they had the time. There were a couple places on the note left, where it looked like the note was copied and the perp lost his/her place. ie: crossoff of delivery and pickup inserted. Also, a word was inserted with an arrow--think it was "not."

What do you mean beforehand? As in...while they waited for the Ramsey's to return, or in another location? Considering it was written with the Ramsey's own Sharpie pen, and on their writing pad...it couldn't have been written in another location.

 

[Maikai]

What do you mean beforehand? As in...while they waited for the Ramsey's to return, or in another location? Considering it was written with the Ramsey's own Sharpie pen, and on their writing pad...it couldn't have been written in another location.

We know the actual note was written using paper in the house, and a sharpie pen. I believe it was a kidnapping gone bad by amateurs with a substance abuse problem that thought they could make some quick money. Certain items were brought into the house.....duct tape, stun gun, possibly a bat & rope. They would have some kind of note in mind...possibly one written out before they entered the house and then recopied...or a general idea on what it would say. A big question in my mind is the entreprenauer article from the year before with JR's picture having a red X on it, similar to "Ricochet," that was found. There was some half-@ssed planning, but it ended tragically because they didn't know what they were doing, and didn't plan on how they would get JBR out of the house.

Had it gone the way they planned, they would have gotten JBR out of the house...JR would not have called the police, and would have come up with the money...and JBR returned, and the perp(s) would have had a big laugh once it hit the news. I think that's all there was to it.

 

[Ames]

We know the actual note was written using paper in the house, and a sharpie pen. I believe it was a kidnapping gone bad by amateurs with a substance abuse problem that thought they could make some quick money. Certain items were brought into the house.....duct tape, stun gun, possibly a bat & rope. They would have some kind of note in mind...possibly one written out before they entered the house and then recopied...or a general idea on what it would say. A big question in my mind is the entreprenauer article from the year before with JR's picture having a red X on it, similar to "Ricochet," that was found. There was some half-@ssed planning, but it ended tragically because they didn't know what they were doing, and didn't plan on how they would get JBR out of the house.

Had it gone the way they planned, they would have gotten JBR out of the house...JR would not have called the police, and would have come up with the money...and JBR returned, and the perp(s) would have had a big laugh once it hit the news. I think that's all there was to it.

Actually it was the word NO that was written over the other people in the picture faces..then there was John's picture, with a red heart drawn around it, with the word Yes, written above it. I have read that Patsy had a habit of drawing hearts...so IMO she was the one that did that, probably doodling while on the phone, or something. I don't think that an intruder that hated John so much that he would murder his daughter, would have drawn a heart around John's picture.

------------------------
"Recently we learned that an old newspaper article reporting about the top business people in the Boulder community was found in the Ramsey home. Someone had written "no" across the faces of business persons pictured in the article with the exception of the photo of John Ramsey. A heart was drawn around his face. The article was placed for safekeeping and discovered by the Boulder Police Department"

 

[JMO8778]

an intruder wouldn't place an article for safekeeping in someone else's house.

 

[JMO8778]

I'm very suspicious about his role in things as well - not the murder per se, but any abuse before it. How many people plan to travel home on standby on Christmas Eve (at least I think it was Christmas Eve). What was he doing there and why did he leave so abruptly? Is there a connection to the call to police on the 23rd? So many questions...

yes,it was.you'd think he would've planned a flight in advance.he lived in Boulder,for the most part,and wife Nedra did not share his apt. there.
I'd like to know those things,too.

 

[JMO8778]

Yes. Also, Steve Thomas wouldn't have missed a chance to spin it, if he could have found any evidence or anyone that indicated Patsy saw these movies, or expressed an interest in them.

I don't know where you got your information,but Thomas truly wasn't like that.don't listen to the IDI's on that one,because of COURSE the Rams were going to whine that LE was out to get them...what else could they do???!! they had to twist it somehow..even coming up w such STUPID comments like Patsy saying Thomas 'looked young enough to be a boy scout',when in reality,there wasn't much difference in their ages.I mean......@@@@@@@@.
Thomas was one of the only HONEST ppl who worked the case,he refused to be bought or sold,and he is and will always be JonBenet's HERO.

 

[Ames]

an intruder wouldn't place an article for safekeeping in someone else's house.

LOL..no he wouldn't. Couldn't you just see "him" now....after "he" draws a heart around John's picture, and puts the word NO, on the other pictures..."he" says..."Now WHERE can I put this for safekeeping? This house is so big, I bet that whereever I put it, I won't remember where I put it, later." That happens to me all the time...I put something up for "safekeeping", and then I can't remember where I put it. LOL

We are having alot of tornadoes out this way...Western SC...how's it looking out there for you guys, JMO8778?

 

[Ames]

I don't know where you got your information,but Thomas truly wasn't like that.don't listen to the IDI's on that one,because of COURSE the Rams were going to whine that LE was out to get them...what else could they do???!! they had to twist it somehow..even coming up w such STUPID comments like Patsy saying Thomas 'looked young enough to be a boy scout',when in reality,there wasn't much difference in their ages.I mean......@@@@@@@@.
Thomas was one of the only HONEST ppl who worked the case,he refused to be bought or sold,and he is and will always be JonBenet's HERO.

And he actually left his job because of the injustice...

I don't know why, but it reminds me of my uncle, who used to be a manager in a plant. There was an older man there that had been there for years, and the higher ups wanted him gone. They came to my uncle and told him to fire the old man, even though he had done nothing wrong. My uncle said "No way, he has done nothing", and then my uncle QUIT. He quit because of the unjustice too. Yes, he is definately JB's hero...and mine too.