Trial Discussion Thread #40

[BatGunKick]

Excellent stuff, and exactly what sluething is all about! I'm glad to see that the focus of discussion in general has returned to trying to work out the facts and evidence of the case as I personally think the current status of the trial with all the psychology stuff is a bit of a diversion .. possibly deliberately so.

Exactly. Love the fact that we can all connect to get to the bottom of this. Interestingly there was a VERY telling video on youtube of the day Dr. Voster testified showing the utter anger of Roux when he couldn't talk to her before she got on the stand (she went into court using a different door). Before Dr. Foster took the stand for Oscar's team, Roux was clearly wanting to talk to her before she took the stand (to possibly guide her) - he sends both Brian Webber and Roxanne Adams to go and find Dr. Foster, but then Dr Foster comes in the OTHER SIDE OF THE COURT. You can see Roux tries to get an adjournment, judge Masipa says no, that someone has arrived. Roux then turns to Roxanne Adams who has returned to sit behind Roux, and asks her: "Did he get to talk to her?" She looks like a deer in headlights: she says: "Not Yet." Roux then freaks out at her and she says defensively: "She went round the other side!" Then Brian Webber returns (having not completed his assigned task of chatting to Dr. Foster). Roux lays into them both further and the whole team looks... well..... TOAST.
The rest as we know is history. In a weird turn of events, it is no longer viewable at the link: Oscar Pistorius Trial: Monday 12 May 2014, Session 1 - YouTube
"Oscar Pistorius Trial Monday 12 May 2014, Session 1" at the 1h28m18s mark.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Exactly. Love the fact that we can all connect to get to the bottom of this. Interestingly there was a VERY telling video on youtube of the day Dr. Voster testified showing the utter anger of Roux when he couldn't talk to her before she got on the stand (she went into court using a different door). Before Dr. Foster took the stand for Oscar's team, Roux was clearly wanting to talk to her before she took the stand (to possibly guide her) - he sends both Brian Webber and Roxanne Adams to go and find Dr. Foster, but then Dr Foster comes in the OTHER SIDE OF THE COURT. You can see Roux tries to get an adjournment, judge Masipa says no, that someone has arrived. Roux then turns to Roxanne Adams who has returned to sit behind Roux, and asks her: "Did he get to talk to her?" She looks like a deer in headlights: she says: "Not Yet." Roux then freaks out at her and she says defensively: "She went round the other side!" Then Brian Webber returns (having not completed his assigned task of chatting to Dr. Foster). Roux lays into them both further and the whole team looks... well..... TOAST.
The rest as we know is history. In a weird turn of events, it is no longer viewable at the link:

Luckily I have seen it, but I wanted to watch again, the vid now says error.

So strange, have the DT asked for it to be removed? How much pull have they got? :banghead:

 

[BatGunKick]

Hi Batgunkick!

What's your take on the phyciatric (sp) assessment? And what's the general consensus in SA regarding the introduction of this evidence?

Hi There :seeya:

My take: the defense screwed up. They expected this to be another avenue or grasp at a last straw, Roux tried to downplay it - but it was too late and 'blood was in the water' for Nel to then run with it. Before Dr. Foster took the stand for Oscar's team, Roux was clearly wanting to talk to her before she took the stand (to possibly guide her) - he sends both Brian Webber and Roxanne Adams to go and find Dr. Foster, but then Dr Foster comes in the other side of the court. You can see Roux tries to get an adjournment, judge Masipa says no, that someone has arrived. Roux then turns to Roxanne Adams who has returned to sit behind Roux, and asks her: "Did he get to talk to her?" She looks like a deer in headlights: she says: "Not Yet." Roux then freaks out at her and she says defensively: "She went round the other side!" Then Brian Webber returns (having not completed his assigned task of chatting to Dr. Foster). Roux lays into them both further and the whole team looks stricken.

It's important for OP to be assessed, so that the Prosecution can shut down that avenue for a possible appeal after the verdict. In my opinion, OP will not be able to hide the fact that he is an egotist and pathological liar. This is a good thing - as if it is ruled that he is in full faculty of his senses, and was so on that night, then there is no leeway later on. Furthermore, Judge Masipa has to be vigilant to give him a FAIR trial (hence she stated that she would like outpatient status) BUT it's the State's decision - if they want him to be at in institution for the duration, they may ask for it. Also out patient only means he sleeps elsewhere - he still would have to be in assessment from 7am - 7pm. Plus the prosecution, the court itself and the defense elect their own psychiatrists. In my view this whole thing of GAD is nonsense. I have been diagnosed with GAD - I was in an armed robbery and tried to run 3 times! :floorlaugh: I dare anyone to find a GAD sufferer who runs towards a danger. This whole ploy by the defense backfired, now it's purely procedure, then back on track for the trial. Interestingly, Mr. Dewani is also here under observation for his wife Annie's murder, so one way or another, hoping a message gets through to the men out there that South Africa is not a place to kill your women.
:maddening:

Also, a full evaluation will look back into all his past history - the psychiatrists can call ANYONE they see fit for an interview - including Reeva's friends that could not testify due to character witness limitations. I think the psychologists could really open Pandora's Box - and list characteristics that would have the world seeing him in a new light - he's manipulative and self-serving etc. So the defense didn't want this at all.

Consensus:
Most people don't buy the GAD theory - and most are worried that due to the high amount of people on the waiting list for evaluation that OP will not get evaluated properly (the court will not stand for someone else being bumped off to give OP a spot.) Here in SA many lawyers and people in the know have posted that this is common procedure and once mental state comes into mind it has to run it's due course through evaluation... as Nel pointed out, the mere statement of "I can't remember" (at the point of the actual killing) has to be investigated (he made reference in court to past cases).

 

[BatGunKick]

Luckily I have seen it, but I wanted to watch again, the vid now says error.

So strange, have the DT asked for it to be removed? How much pull have they got? :banghead:

My thoughts exactly. It had over ten thousand views. Veeeerrry suspicious.

 

[jay-jay]

Majority of what I have read on our news sites (www.iol.co.za) - search for Oscar Pistorius, and you will see some very insightful (and very entertaining) comments under most articles. Most here in SA believe he is lying through his teeth. Before the trial it was largely divided as he was seen as a hero - but after his bail statement and people heard "his version" most were just gobsmacked at the improbability of it all:


He's brave enough to confront danger, but feels vulnerable.
It's so dark he can't see Reeva, but light enough to navigate around a million objects in the room without knocking a thing over.
He's worried about security, but sleeps with windows in his bedroom open
He doesn't trust the police, yet in his version keeps telling Reeva to call them
After shooting into the door, he immediately thinks it's Reeva that he's shot - even though he spent a good 5min previously thinking it was an intruder. For all he knew, she went downstairs or to a neighbor for help.

Most of all, I think if you had to point to one thing (evidence wise) it would be the blood spatter on the duvet (that was on the floor) the blood spatter runs off the duvet onto the carpet. This means it was on the floor of the bedroom where he said the fan was. He keeps saying the police moved things - yet the judge would then have to believe that they lined up the blood spatter perfectly, which is a real stretch - seeing as at that time the police had no clue what his "version" would even be.

Once the evidence started coming to the fore, it's just been a tidal wave here of realization that he's full of it.

Yes, that's one of the main things that confirmed it for me, and is pretty much proof that he is lying about his version :thumb:

 

[Mr Fossil]

Exactly. Love the fact that we can all connect to get to the bottom of this. Interestingly there was a VERY telling video on youtube of the day Dr. Voster testified showing the utter anger of Roux when he couldn't talk to her before she got on the stand (she went into court using a different door). Before Dr. Foster took the stand for Oscar's team, Roux was clearly wanting to talk to her before she took the stand (to possibly guide her) - he sends both Brian Webber and Roxanne Adams to go and find Dr. Foster, but then Dr Foster comes in the OTHER SIDE OF THE COURT. You can see Roux tries to get an adjournment, judge Masipa says no, that someone has arrived. Roux then turns to Roxanne Adams who has returned to sit behind Roux, and asks her: "Did he get to talk to her?" She looks like a deer in headlights: she says: "Not Yet." Roux then freaks out at her and she says defensively: "She went round the other side!" Then Brian Webber returns (having not completed his assigned task of chatting to Dr. Foster). Roux lays into them both further and the whole team looks... well..... TOAST.
The rest as we know is history. In a weird turn of events, it is no longer viewable at the link: Oscar Pistorius Trial: Monday 12 May 2014, Session 1 - YouTube
"Oscar Pistorius Trial Monday 12 May 2014, Session 1" at the 1h28m18s mark.

Still available here http://news.sky.com/story/1259691/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-30-as-it-happened

 

[CriLondon]

I have to wonder if Roux arguing against Vorster wasn't more for legal reasons (like not wanting his client evaluated and certainly not wanting to risk the burden required for an involuntary defence) and less at Oscar's proposal to do so or insistence he isn't 'ill'.

JMO, but if he does have something like NPD, I'd think he'd love a diagnosis like GAD because it allows him to perpetuate his victim status.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

What i put in bold , in your post , in my humble opinion is a very intelligent reading of what Roux must have felt so strongly about.
I'd also speculate (like many others have here and i agree) that Roux has , in fact, already had OP evaluated and he KNOWS that this referral WILL be a disaster (not necessarily with agreement from OP on such evaluation , let's not forget he has been seen after the shooting by psychiatrists , on Roux's payroll , who could be treating OP when in direct contact but also , crucially , feeding info to Roux on the actual findings).

The in/out-patient situation is the very last card , imho , that Roux can try and use to be able to get OP strongly treated outside of assessment hours.
It's no guarantee of success , but what does Roux have left at this stage?

Again , it is just my opinion but it makes sense.

 

[jay-jay]

I don't believe Reeva locked him out, but rather, I think he locked her in. The crime scene photos show the key in the keyhole on the outside of the toilet door. He testified that after the shooting he got the cricket bat and used it on the door, broke away the panels and reached through to pick up the key, but with the panels removed, why did he need a key at all?

My theory is that after locking her in the toilet, he hit the door with the bat and was able to crouch forward and look through the hole. "Know your target". He then fired the first shot, re-aimed and then fired 3 more shots which were grouped together.

Have I missed something here?

My view has always been that he locked her in there, too .. the minute I saw the key on the outside, it looked to me that the whole 'finding the key on the floor' story was a lot of old rot (one of the reasons being that it's not that easy for a key like that to fall out of the keyhole, especially when it's locked). That was probably the reason why she was screaming and facing right up against the door .. I can imagine her standing there banging on it with both hands and screaming at him. Had she locked herself in there, I think she would've been cowering in the corner somewhere (I would imagine). We've only ever had OP's word for it that she locked herself in, we don't really know that that was actually the case.

 

[DebinGA]

I fully agree with you. Oscar has tried to include everything he did that night into his version (so as to then have an explanation for everything to tailor his testimony accordingly and cover up). HE keeps mentioning a kick, so I'm sure that's what he did to the door - after 3:17am. He mentions 3 things: 'shouldering the door' 'kicking the door' and 'breaking the panel out and throwing it into the bathroom' (the last one shows he is lying, as the panel actually fell into the toilet). Anyway, point being that he mentions these 3 things to cover up any noises heard after the shots. I think Dr Stipp heard one bang after the shots, maybe the plank falling in... a kick to an already weakened door would not travel to witnesses ears?

Is there general consensus OP was on his stumps when he fired the shots, because it seems very unlikely to me based on his narcissism and the extended argument he had with Reeva, especially since he boasted to Nel he can don his legs in 30 sec. I believed Dr. Vorster that OP has serious stump issues, is ashamed of them, tries to spend as little time on them as possible, and especially imo when with a love interest who was probably packing up to leave him.

 

[Dphil]

Hi There :seeya:

My take: the defense screwed up. They expected this to be another avenue or grasp at a last straw, Roux tried to downplay it - but it was too late and 'blood was in the water' for Nel to then run with it. Before Dr. Foster took the stand for Oscar's team, Roux was clearly wanting to talk to her before she took the stand (to possibly guide her) - he sends both Brian Webber and Roxanne Adams to go and find Dr. Foster, but then Dr Foster comes in the other side of the court. You can see Roux tries to get an adjournment, judge Masipa says no, that someone has arrived. Roux then turns to Roxanne Adams who has returned to sit behind Roux, and asks her: "Did he get to talk to her?" She looks like a deer in headlights: she says: "Not Yet." Roux then freaks out at her and she says defensively: "She went round the other side!" Then Brian Webber returns (having not completed his assigned task of chatting to Dr. Foster). Roux lays into them both further and the whole team looks stricken.

It's important for OP to be assessed, so that the Prosecution can shut down that avenue for a possible appeal after the verdict. In my opinion, OP will not be able to hide the fact that he is an egotist and pathological liar. This is a good thing - as if it is ruled that he is in full faculty of his senses, and was so on that night, then there is no leeway later on. Furthermore, Judge Masipa has to be vigilant to give him a FAIR trial (hence she stated that she would like outpatient status) BUT it's the State's decision - if they want him to be at in institution for the duration, they may ask for it. Also out patient only means he sleeps elsewhere - he still would have to be in assessment from 7am - 7pm. Plus the prosecution, the court itself and the defense elect their own psychiatrists. In my view this whole thing of GAD is nonsense. I have been diagnosed with GAD - I was in an armed robbery and tried to run 3 times! :floorlaugh: I dare anyone to find a GAD sufferer who runs towards a danger. This whole ploy by the defense backfired, now it's purely procedure, then back on track for the trial. Interestingly, Mr. Dewani is also here under observation for his wife Annie's murder, so one way or another, hoping a message gets through to the men out there that South Africa is not a place to kill your women.
:maddening:

Also, a full evaluation will look back into all his past history - the psychiatrists can call ANYONE they see fit for an interview - including Reeva's friends that could not testify due to character witness limitations. I think the psychologists could really open Pandora's Box - and list characteristics that would have the world seeing him in a new light - he's manipulative and self-serving etc. So the defense didn't want this at all.

Consensus:
Most people don't buy the GAD theory - and most are worried that due to the high amount of people on the waiting list for evaluation that OP will not get evaluated properly (the court will not stand for someone else being bumped off to give OP a spot.) Here in SA many lawyers and people in the know have posted that this is common procedure and once mental state comes into mind it has to run it's due course through evaluation... as Nel pointed out, the mere statement of "I can't remember" (at the point of the actual killing) has to be investigated (he made reference in court to past cases).

BIB - lol!!!

That was so funny I nearly spat out my drink - sorry just my sense of humour.

It will certainly open a barrel of worms that's for sure. Probably good if you think that - if he had been found guilty it would have been appealed and he might have got on bail waiting for the appeal trial.

Personally I hope they bring the witness who's dog OP shot. I can't imagine doing that to a living creature and this is something HE has admitted to in the past.

Thanks so much for your input - it's really really good to get someone's opinion who lives in South Africa - there's another poster on here from there and it's great that you're both posting to keep us up to date!:loveyou::loveyou:

 

[jay-jay]

I can't recall an emergency call being excluded full stop but there certainly have been occasions in which a defence has sought to do so - sometimes concessions have been made to provide a transcript to a jury instead of hearing a recording or censoring part of the recording.

There are many reasons evidence is sometimes excluded, including but not limited to, relevancy, prejudicial vs probative, time-wasting, etc.

There's a lot we don't know in this trial. For a start, its a bench only system which explains why there's been no 'emotional' testimony about Reeva - the family's loss, who she was, etc. Very matter of fact evidence without a lot of explanation is the rule of the game here. But we also don't know what evidence was stipulated - attorneys agreed, no argument required - and was simply submitted into evidence.

Wholly possible, and I'd lean to probable, that a netcare transcript or recording has been submitted. The reasons we haven't heard or read it could be any number of reasons - something as benign as privacy laws precluding broadcasting such a recording, for example. I dunno. I just don't think we should assume one doesn't exist just because it hasn't been publicised to the extent we see in other trials.

All JMO

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

I do hope so, BK! I'm pretty sure that it would've been .. and I think it is because of things like this that the prosecution are so sure and so confident about their case.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Just to correct point no. 3. OP never said Reeva was asleep in his bail statement.

Please look at p.5 of the bail statement para. 16.5

"After Reeva finished her yoga exercises she got into bed and we both fell asleep".

 

[DebinGA]

The DT/OP may call is "running toward danger" but I think it's OP's inappropriately reacting in a hostile way to any perceived opposition to or questioning of anything he says or does; i.e. "hyper-don't mess with me"ism

 

[lithgow1]

Please look at p.5 of the bail statement para. 16.5

"After Reeva finished her yoga exercises she got into bed and we both fell asleep".

I started this confusion when I queried in post # 692 why OP changed his story from RS being asleep when he went to get the fans to them having the brief conversation. Giles correctly pointed out that he didn't say she was asleep at that point so I went back and amended the original post to make it accurate. In essence, Giles' original response was to a post of mine that has since been corrected.

 

[vansleuths]

Why has the trial been postponed until Tuesday? Was it to give the DT/PT time to iron out the details or is there a holiday this Monday in SA?

 

[BatGunKick]

http://batgunkick.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/the-event-is-this-what-happened-that.html?m=1

This is well thought out!!! Thanks.

Ooops, not sure if I replied to you (I'm a newbie on here) :seeya:
Thanks for saying so x

 

[Mysteeri]

BatGunKicks`s theory (thank you for the excellent work) and the door panel being loosened from the bat hits and shots made me think that perhaps OP was in a mad frenzy trying to break the door open and used the gun to try to shoot open the door/panel. The last shots were close to the door handle. So perhaps at that point he was not actually trying to kill her, not that it is in any way acceptable to shoot in such a reckless manner towards a person.

 

[Dphil]

BatGunKicks`s theory (thank you for the excellent work) and the door panel being loosened from the bat hits and shots made me think that perhaps OP was in a mad frenzy trying to break the door open and used the gun to try to shoot open the door/panel. The last shots were close to the door handle. So perhaps at that point he was not actually trying to kill her, not that it is in any way acceptable to shoot in such a reckless manner towards a person.

4 shots - hmmm

wouldn't you simply fire at the handle so it would unlock.

 

[Gryffindor]

Why has the trial been postponed until Tuesday? Was it to give the DT/PT time to iron out the details or is there a holiday this Monday in SA?

DT and PT are finalising and compiling an agreed "order" regarding Oscar's psychological examination for diagnosis.

 

[BatGunKick]

Wow - fantastic summarizing- like the different colours to show facts, etc.

Also how you've got the contradictions - really helps to see things at a glance.

What a lot of hard work - thanks so much.

Thanks! Have had this info since April but needed to get it all together and sorted, plus was really hoping the state would work it in somehow - they may even be holding it for the closing argument?... after all, they need to give us the State's version as to what went down.