The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 25th June - Trial Day 10, Week 3

[marlywings]

Kind of makes you picture Allison's phone wrapped in plastic wandering with Gerard in a clothes basket full of toys and clothes to Kenmore, doesn't it?

I wonder if the girls had school backpacks.

I wonder who packed those!?!?!?

 

[alioop]

Alioop, how damaging is it to the prosecution's case that they cannot identify the cause of death?

One of the first things the jury should do is decide on the evidence if Allison was killed by someone or died by some other means. The coroner said he was satisfied she did not die of natural causes, which I presume, and Doc may expand on this and correct me if I am wrong, that she didn't have a heart attack for example. If they are convinced someone did kill her, they don't have to know the exact cause of death which of course is not known except to the person who killed her or of course anyone he told, but they have no evidence from any such persons. They do have evidence about what did not or was unlikely to have caused her death. They can still convict GBC if they believed he killed her without knowing how.

So it's not damaging as such to the prosecutions case, it's just how it is and the prosecution were upfront about an undetermined cause of death in the opening statement. Of course if say strangulation or suffocation had been determined as the cause of death, then the trial would have only taken 2 weeks as the depression/suicide questions would have been irrelevant. So a lack of a cause of death does make it harder to prove she was murdered but when taken into account with where she was found, a murder finding by the jury may not be difficult for them. Then the next step is for them to decide on the evidence if GBC killed her. They can look at the likelihood of someone else killing her in terms of motive and opportunity.

Thanks Ali - I wrote the above before reading your very sensible opinion of where things stand with the prosecutions case, and you do make perfect sense. I can see it wasn't necessary to raise this. Do you think the indro car crash is in the same category, I don't believe it was raised either (unless I'm mistaken?).

Yes I do think that and nearly mentioned it in my post. Again it's distracting for the jury and there may be many reasons he crashed.

 

[LadyBird1]

:floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:

BJsleuth, You pinched my lines there!

 

[Couldbe]

I think it DOES matter & it matters a LOT!!

Brookfield house was a crime scene from which nothing was allowed to be removed.

That razor has been a major part of this whole case so I want to know how it made it's way to the parents house. There is no chance in heck police would have allowed him to just take it with him.

........ and this is a real key example of the discrepancies which have been revealed and alluded to during the Trial, but haven't exactly been pursued by the Prosecution in their questioning.
I think that many of us are struggling to understand why. There is most likely a reason ......... those privy to the necessity (or lack of it) in pursuing to have the actual discrepancies examined during questioning of witnesses would probably understand.

 

[Mumma Bear]

I think it DOES matter & it matters a LOT!!

Brookfield house was a crime scene from which nothing was allowed to be removed.

That razor has been a major part of this whole case so I want to know how it made it's way to the parents house. There is no chance in heck police would have allowed him to just take it with him.

Great point. Maybe it was never his razor to start with (was it daddy's?). It seemed strange he wouldn't use an electric one.

 

[ThaiBali]

Didn't it actually say the police picked GBC up from his parents house and drove him to his Brookfield house where he went in and bought out the razor wrapped in glad wrap?? Or did I misread that???

Why would you take a razor that's ripped half your face off to NBC. Not likely you'd be using it again. Weird

 

[angelalansbury]

GBC casual flippant relaxed demeanour heard throughout the interviews with police come across as coming from a man who is extremely arrogant and always 'on' as the salesman he is. He truly believed that the cops would walk out of the interview and look at each other and go,' nah, it couldn't be him, he is a good bloke, I know he was having an affair, but he wasn't hiding it from us.' How dumb does he think the police are. Pure arrogance.

I just feel so sorry for the kids and ABC family. If he gets off, the kids will one day understand how little their dad cared for their mother.

 

[alioop]

In summarising the agreed points today the prosecution made a point of highlighting that Gerard drew a floor plan of Toni's house. I wonder why this is significant enough that they included it among the irrefutable facts?

I think it demonstrates that they did have a discussion about these specific issues the night she went missing as this is written evidence of his participation in that discussion. They got down to nitty gritty stuff that they may not have ever dealt with as he had refused to discuss it until Carmel Ritchie bullied him into it. Otherwise it's just Allison's checklist of questions she wanted to ask that reflects the detail. The prosecutions case is that his worlds collided that night ( or words along those lines in the opening statement) and led to Allison's death after that discussion started.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I am trying desperately hard to produce a true time frame of events ...
Have started to eliminate any "events" whatsoever as portrayed by GBC or his backup /support group.
Sausage sizzle etc have been eliminated ....

...... instead fish & chips with TM in a car.

 

[Neuromancer]

I'm not buying it, HD, it's too coincidental by far. Okay, maybe that "fifth amendment" episode was shown around that time,* and I'll even allow that the second time he accessed the "self-incrimination" search was probably just the page reloading ... but basically I don't believe a word GBC says. IMO his pants are permanently on fire!

Lol - I was just wondering if anyone *doesn't* know what "taking the fifth" means, so I asked Mr NM (who's about GBC's age) what it means and how long he's known that and he said "since I first started watching crime dramas". When I said GBC had googled it, he burst out laughing (thinking I was making a point about what a dummy GBC was).

But really, when our TV's been so saturated by US crime dramas for decades - could anyone over 40 not know that? Surely he must have been looking for more info - ?

 

[ThaiBali]

Could it be that Allison had 3 birthdays since affair started/restarted and he only remembered 1 of those 3 birthdays of hers?

Correct..

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I think it demonstrates that they did have a discussion about these specific issues the night she went missing as this is written evidence of his participation in that discussion. They got down to nitty gritty stuff that they may not have ever dealt with as he had refused to discuss it until Carmel Ritchie bullied him into it. Otherwise it's just Allison's checklist of questions she wanted to ask that reflects the detail. The prosecutions case is that his worlds collided that night ( or words along those lines in the opening statement) and led to Allison's death after that discussion started.

Another 2 C-words:

Carmel
checklist

 

[Neuromancer]

Another thing- at his age and Bwanas age, who needs to google anything about the 5th amendment or self incrimination. Seriously I know they are dense but that is a new level of thick.

lol I just read this.

Snap

 

[Neuromancer]

Oh yes, I don't dispute that the "Fifth Amendment" episode was shown at that time, but I don't believe that he looked it up for his mother.

Yes - and probably a family habit of using "stupid women" as an excuse for everything...

 

[Trooper]

Lol - I was just wondering if anyone *doesn't* know what "taking the fifth" means, so I asked Mr NM (who's about GBC's age) what it means and how long he's known that and he said "since I first started watching crime dramas". When I said GBC had googled it, he burst out laughing (thinking I was making a point about what a dummy GBC was).

But really, when our TV's been so saturated by US crime dramas for decades - could anyone over 40 not know that? Surely he must have been looking for more info - ?

I dismissed that bit re his googling ' the fiftth' on the grounds that any Australian would know we don't have a 'fiftth'.... that was then and this is now .. now I realise Gerard is dim. :dunno:

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Lol - I was just wondering if anyone *doesn't* know what "taking the fifth" means, so I asked Mr NM (who's about GBC's age) what it means and how long he's known that and he said "since I first started watching crime dramas". When I said GBC had googled it, he burst out laughing (thinking I was making a point about what a dummy GBC was).

But really, when our TV's been so saturated by US crime dramas for decades - could anyone over 40 not know that? Surely he must have been looking for more info - ?

Me <---------- :blushing:

 

[UnfoldingTruth]

Seriously asking your 8 yo to help you put a band aid on your 'razor cut' is beyond the pale.

I really think that was all just a part of the whole charade.. you know really drilling the story into the kids.. 'Look Daddy cut himself shaving, can you help me put a band aid on sweety' Or perhaps the little girl suggested putting a bandaid on - cause thats what happens when she gets an ouchie?

 

[BJsleuth]

I think it demonstrates that they did have a discussion about these specific issues the night she went missing as this is written evidence of his participation in that discussion. They got down to nitty gritty stuff that they may not have ever dealt with as he had refused to discuss it until Carmel Ritchie bullied him into it. Otherwise it's just Allison's checklist of questions she wanted to ask that reflects the detail. The prosecutions case is that his worlds collided that night ( or words along those lines in the opening statement) and led to Allison's death after that discussion started.

I still dont believe he wanted to. Just buying time. Recurring theme there isn't it?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Yes - and probably a family habit of using "stupid women" as an excuse for everything...

....... but able for a little bit granny snogging before camera they have to be?

 

[Trooper]

there would be a lot of sighing and soulsearching in Cell Block B at the Arthur Gorrie Centre tonight.. lots of tossing and turning and many repeats of the corned beef sandwich imbibed for supper..


will he.. or wont he?? he has to go first if he is going to go.. so the wait will not be ultra excruciatingly prolonged...

does Gerard think he can outsmart and out charm Danny Boyle?? has Danny played it low key all this time to lure Gerard into thinking this?? will Gerard take Mr Byrnes heavily paid for, or at least heavily billed for, perhaps not exactly as yet paid for advice??