No I think he said no one can ever predict it.
He is not saying she was suicidal. He is saying it is impossible for others to have said she wasn't.
The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 2nd July - Trial Day 14, Week 3
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No I think he said no one can ever predict it.
He is not saying she was suicidal. He is saying it is impossible for others to have said she wasn't.
Come ONNN. Allison had woken up to G's ways of blaming her for everything. I don't believe she would suicide and leave her daughters to deal with that themselves! She would be more concerned about protecting them from it, knowing the effect it had had on her.
DrWatson
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So now the jury have four and a half days to stew on it all. And I assume that they're not allowed to read newspapers, watch TV, go on the Internet, or talk to anybody.
Are they being kept in solitary confinement until then?
Errr - let's get a bit realistic here. They're going to talk - among themselves, to their families, they're going to watch TV and read the papers, they're going to be checking their emails - and just happen to check a few bits and bobs on the net while they're at it? They might even do a bit of serious research for themselves into sertraline, depression, crêpe myrtle, or whatever.
But surely they could have done the defence and prosecution closing addresses tomorrow and Friday, and perhaps even the judge's summing up too. Then lock 'em in the hotel to start their deliberations over the weekend?
Are they being kept in solitary confinement until then?
Errr - let's get a bit realistic here. They're going to talk - among themselves, to their families, they're going to watch TV and read the papers, they're going to be checking their emails - and just happen to check a few bits and bobs on the net while they're at it? They might even do a bit of serious research for themselves into sertraline, depression, crêpe myrtle, or whatever.
But surely they could have done the defence and prosecution closing addresses tomorrow and Friday, and perhaps even the judge's summing up too. Then lock 'em in the hotel to start their deliberations over the weekend?
UnfoldingTruth
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I guess, we might at least get a chance to catch up- for those that have not yet. But yes it will be!
laserdisc10
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catswhiskers
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I also think that despite his claims to the contrary, GBC would have been pretty darn worried about the conference on April 20. He has repeatedly referred to TM as hotheaded and explosive ... did he really believe that she wasn't going to blab something inappropriate in front of Allison if they met?? I wouldn't be surprised if TM had even suggested that might happen, out of sheer frustration with him. His whole world was caving in around him at that time, and Allison paid the price instead of him.
MsAnais
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:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:
Amee
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.15pm: The 75th witness in the trial is psychiatrist Dr Mark Schramm.
He said he worked chiefly in forensic psychiatry, including in the prison mental health service, but also worked privately.
Dr Schramm said he looked at Allison Baden-Clay’s autopsy report, doctor records, as well as psychology consultation notes and records.
He agreed Ms Baden-Clay was first diagnosed with relapsing major depression disorder, with features of anxiety, by Dr Tom George in 2003
Dr Schramm said that meant it had a longitudinal course that waxed, waned and recurred upon one of her pregnancies.
“It wasn’t just a single episode it was more than one episode,” he said.
He said the symptoms of the disorder included a depressed mood, self-doubt, anxiety and panic attacks.
Dr Schramm said there was a link between major depression and suicide.
“Studies for the rate of suicide vary … but probably one of the most well-respected studies performed by people who work in Australia or even Brisbane suggests that 3.4 per cent of people who experience depression will take their lives,” he said.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-allison-in-2012/story-fnihsrf2-1226974352079
He said he worked chiefly in forensic psychiatry, including in the prison mental health service, but also worked privately.
Dr Schramm said he looked at Allison Baden-Clay’s autopsy report, doctor records, as well as psychology consultation notes and records.
He agreed Ms Baden-Clay was first diagnosed with relapsing major depression disorder, with features of anxiety, by Dr Tom George in 2003
Dr Schramm said that meant it had a longitudinal course that waxed, waned and recurred upon one of her pregnancies.
“It wasn’t just a single episode it was more than one episode,” he said.
He said the symptoms of the disorder included a depressed mood, self-doubt, anxiety and panic attacks.
Dr Schramm said there was a link between major depression and suicide.
“Studies for the rate of suicide vary … but probably one of the most well-respected studies performed by people who work in Australia or even Brisbane suggests that 3.4 per cent of people who experience depression will take their lives,” he said.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-allison-in-2012/story-fnihsrf2-1226974352079
Harking back to the hiatus in the trial , when the prosecution finished it's presentation of witnesses, and the jury was excused for some time, just before Mr Byrne gave us Gerards potted version of events..
I believe that interim was significant, and we will hear more about what was legally argued in that time.. ..
I believe that interim was significant, and we will hear more about what was legally argued in that time.. ..
DrWatson
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Hi Cattail - yes, I got that. I was perhaps being a bit facetious myself, and taking his quote out of context.
But he DID say "You should not assume that experts have the answers" in a subsequent part of that answer...
And he was there as an expert witness. I was just making a point - but not very well, it seems
Amee
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He said it was not universal for people who took their own lives to leave a note.
“More than half do not,” he said.
He said it was not uncommon for suicide to be a surprise to loved ones, friends and relatives.
“It is also the case that very often, and unfortunately suicide is a surprise, and even in retrospect it has been impossible to predict,” he said.
Dr Schramm said around half of those who ended their lives had seen a medical professional in the two weeks prior.
“I think it’s folly to assume that simply because you have a medical degree or you are a psychologist or a psychiatrist that you can confidently predict or rule out when someone might kill themselves,” he said.
“It’s human nature to assume that experts have the answers.”
He said it was not uncommon for experts to “miss” someone who was at risk.
In cross-examination by Crown prosecutor Danny Boyle, Dr Schramm agreed he had not interviewed anyone in relation to his assessment.
He agreed his opinions were based on medical notes and records.
Dr Schramm agreed his remarks were general and related to people who suffered depression.
He asked the psychiatrist about maternal attachment.
“If someone has a strong attachment to her children and she has a concern as to their wellbeing, an ongoing concern, that would indicate a high level of attachment which would be a protective factor against suicide?” Mr Boyle said.
Dr Schramm said it would reduce the risk Ms Baden-Clay would harm herself.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-allison-in-2012/story-fnihsrf2-1226974352079
“More than half do not,” he said.
He said it was not uncommon for suicide to be a surprise to loved ones, friends and relatives.
“It is also the case that very often, and unfortunately suicide is a surprise, and even in retrospect it has been impossible to predict,” he said.
Dr Schramm said around half of those who ended their lives had seen a medical professional in the two weeks prior.
“I think it’s folly to assume that simply because you have a medical degree or you are a psychologist or a psychiatrist that you can confidently predict or rule out when someone might kill themselves,” he said.
“It’s human nature to assume that experts have the answers.”
He said it was not uncommon for experts to “miss” someone who was at risk.
In cross-examination by Crown prosecutor Danny Boyle, Dr Schramm agreed he had not interviewed anyone in relation to his assessment.
He agreed his opinions were based on medical notes and records.
Dr Schramm agreed his remarks were general and related to people who suffered depression.
He asked the psychiatrist about maternal attachment.
“If someone has a strong attachment to her children and she has a concern as to their wellbeing, an ongoing concern, that would indicate a high level of attachment which would be a protective factor against suicide?” Mr Boyle said.
Dr Schramm said it would reduce the risk Ms Baden-Clay would harm herself.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-allison-in-2012/story-fnihsrf2-1226974352079
itsthevibe
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"You may have things that are seemingly improbable, as well as other things that are impossible. Once you have eliminated what is impossible, what remains is the truth."
I'll elaborate about this later.
I'll elaborate about this later.
Amee
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“I accept that is something that goes against the argument that she was suicidal,” he said.
Mr Boyle asked if suicide was likely if there had been no triggering event.
“I’d suggest there could be some triggering events that we don’t know about, some triggering events that are internal, but I accept that knowing there is no triggering event … it is less likely,” he said.
Dr Schramm agreed a person making short and long-term plans would make one “less concerned” they would harm themselves.
“A decision may have occurred after such plans, long term or medium term, were made,” he said.
Mr Boyle asked about the likely suicide risk of a person who had been proactive in the past about seeking assistance from counsellors and doctors.
“In general I would accept Allison seemed to be someone who put her hand up when she wasn’t coping and sought help,” he said.
Dr Schramm agreed symptoms of depression could become worse during pregnancy.
He agreed doctors could increase an anti-depressant dose in order to control mood swings around menstruation.
Dr Schramm said he did not know when Ms Baden-Clay was last actively depressed.
“The records show one of her most recent attendances on her GP at the Kenmore clinic, which was sometime in March, indicated she was complaining of mood swings,” he said.
He said he noticed a note in Ms Baden-Clay’s session with Carmel Ritchie in which she spoke of feeling “not good enough”.
In re-examination by barrister Michael Byrne, Dr Schramm said it was not his belief the increase of sertraline dosage would be likely to have caused suicidal ideation.
“You would normally expect that increased risk when someone first starts on that medication,” he said.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-allison-in-2012/story-fnihsrf2-1226974352079
Mr Boyle asked if suicide was likely if there had been no triggering event.
“I’d suggest there could be some triggering events that we don’t know about, some triggering events that are internal, but I accept that knowing there is no triggering event … it is less likely,” he said.
Dr Schramm agreed a person making short and long-term plans would make one “less concerned” they would harm themselves.
“A decision may have occurred after such plans, long term or medium term, were made,” he said.
Mr Boyle asked about the likely suicide risk of a person who had been proactive in the past about seeking assistance from counsellors and doctors.
“In general I would accept Allison seemed to be someone who put her hand up when she wasn’t coping and sought help,” he said.
Dr Schramm agreed symptoms of depression could become worse during pregnancy.
He agreed doctors could increase an anti-depressant dose in order to control mood swings around menstruation.
Dr Schramm said he did not know when Ms Baden-Clay was last actively depressed.
“The records show one of her most recent attendances on her GP at the Kenmore clinic, which was sometime in March, indicated she was complaining of mood swings,” he said.
He said he noticed a note in Ms Baden-Clay’s session with Carmel Ritchie in which she spoke of feeling “not good enough”.
In re-examination by barrister Michael Byrne, Dr Schramm said it was not his belief the increase of sertraline dosage would be likely to have caused suicidal ideation.
“You would normally expect that increased risk when someone first starts on that medication,” he said.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-allison-in-2012/story-fnihsrf2-1226974352079
Amee
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He added that depression was a factor for suicide.
Dr Schramm agreed he noted Ms Baden-Clay was experiencing possibly depressive cognitions at an appointment with counsellor Carmel Ritchie.
“When people are depressed they look at life through grey-coloured glasses … they evaluate situations themselves in a more negative light through grey glasses. That often is associated with feelings of guilt and inadequacy and I appreciate it is simply cherry-picking one statement, but that struck me as something that may well have been said by someone who is depressed,” he said.
“It may also represent the words of someone who may have as part of their personality, had some self-doubt.
“I don’t think we should draw great certainty from one statement like that but that is certainly not inconsistent with someone who is depressed.”
Dr Schramm said Ms Baden-Clay’s visit to a doctor to treat mood swings around menstruation on March 19, 2012 were not “inconsistent” with depression.
“It’s not inconsistent with it, that’s all I can say. It’s consistent with the GP assessing that she was depressed,” he said.
Dr Schramm agreed the notes of Ms Baden-Clay’s doctor in 2011, which revealed Ms Baden-Clay was experiencing guilt, low mood and tears.
“They all signify a high chance that she was relapsing in her depressive illness,” he said.
The defence closed its case.
Justice John Byrne told the jury all the evidence to be put before them in the trial had been presented.
He said lawyers’ addresses to the jury would begin on Monday, first with defence counsel Mr Byrne and followed by an address from prosecutor Mr Fuller.
Justice Byrne said he would then sum up the case to the jury and they would retire to consider a verdict.
The trial was adjourned until 10am Monday.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-allison-in-2012/story-fnihsrf2-1226974352079
Dr Schramm agreed he noted Ms Baden-Clay was experiencing possibly depressive cognitions at an appointment with counsellor Carmel Ritchie.
“When people are depressed they look at life through grey-coloured glasses … they evaluate situations themselves in a more negative light through grey glasses. That often is associated with feelings of guilt and inadequacy and I appreciate it is simply cherry-picking one statement, but that struck me as something that may well have been said by someone who is depressed,” he said.
“It may also represent the words of someone who may have as part of their personality, had some self-doubt.
“I don’t think we should draw great certainty from one statement like that but that is certainly not inconsistent with someone who is depressed.”
Dr Schramm said Ms Baden-Clay’s visit to a doctor to treat mood swings around menstruation on March 19, 2012 were not “inconsistent” with depression.
“It’s not inconsistent with it, that’s all I can say. It’s consistent with the GP assessing that she was depressed,” he said.
Dr Schramm agreed the notes of Ms Baden-Clay’s doctor in 2011, which revealed Ms Baden-Clay was experiencing guilt, low mood and tears.
“They all signify a high chance that she was relapsing in her depressive illness,” he said.
The defence closed its case.
Justice John Byrne told the jury all the evidence to be put before them in the trial had been presented.
He said lawyers’ addresses to the jury would begin on Monday, first with defence counsel Mr Byrne and followed by an address from prosecutor Mr Fuller.
Justice Byrne said he would then sum up the case to the jury and they would retire to consider a verdict.
The trial was adjourned until 10am Monday.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...-allison-in-2012/story-fnihsrf2-1226974352079
catswhiskers
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He is just a very unlucky man, poor thing. :facepalm:
Agreed and TM said herself she was "putting her foot down" this time.
Hi Cattail - yes, I got that. I was perhaps being a bit facetious myself, and taking his quote out of context.
But he DID say "You should not assume that experts have the answers" in a subsequent part of that answer...
And he was there as an expert witness. I was just making a point - but not very well, it seems
That's ok Doc - I am at work and reading quickly to catch up at lunch - it was probably just me missing your point
I know where that's from! Nice little rope made there!
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