The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 9th July - Trial Day 17

[Seeking]

Emmy Kubainski ‏@emmykubainski 3m

Judge warning jury of unreliable of things said to Allison. A risk witness's testimony is not a reliable a/c @7NewsBrisbane #badenclay

I think that this is where my question came from Alioop. What does this mean? What is a risk witness's testimony? What is the judge referring to with "unreliable things said to a Allison." Thanks.

 

[BreakingNews]

I know there is a bit of a rule of thumb/theory that the longer the jury takes the more likely it is a guilty verdict. But I also think that a jury can come to a unanimous decision fairly quickly. I think it is made very clear to juries that they have a very big responsibility and must take the time to consider all the evidence. I don't think Breaking News will mind me sharing her jury experience as she has been talking about it tonight. BN told me when when met at court a couple of weeks ago that in the murder trial in which she was a juror, the jury all had made their minds as guilty by the time they started deliberations but because of the judges instructions they still took the time to go through all the evidence. That in itself takes time.
So JCB I agree with you generally because I think a jury will put more time into making sure they are right in making a guilty verdict even if this means going over the evidence several times just to be sure they are satisfied with guilty. Of course it must happen that there are a minority of jurors who disagree and the majority have to help them understand the evidence. That is what usually happens when it takes a long time to reach a verdict. It's all tricky to comment on because what happens in the jury room is supposed to stay in the jury room.


BN I don't know but will see what I can find.


Her Honour and spunky Todd came from me.

Thanks Allioops. You are welcome to quote me anytime and thanks for your learned words.

Sent from my ZTE T81 using Tapatalk

 

[LadyBird1]

Off Topic GO THE BLUES :loveyou:

I think I have said this before:
It is an amazing thing; that despite colour, creed, politics, social status, or other prejudice, so many here are able to see things, "Eye to eye" on one single matter.
But we do.

 

[Inspector]

Interesting....with EBC falling asleep in court today and snoring on and off.....I wonder who did kill ABC.....the defence say she died either by seratonin syndrome, drowning or jumping off bridge, Judge seems to discount all of those theories. Ok so who can you think of....the tooth fairy? IMO

Wow really? I get that she's a mum and needs to back her son, but I hope I'm never that massively split from reality, that I scoff at the obvious evidence reported in a court of law, and come off as a family member who has no grasp on evidence/fact, and no respect for the law that is created for the purpose of making society function. *sigh*

 

[alioop]

Thanks Allioops. You are welcome to quote me anytime and thanks for your learned words.

Sent from my ZTE T81 using Tapatalk

Thanks BN. I knew you wouldn't mind.

 

[alioop]

I think that this is where my question came from Alioop. What does this mean? What is a risk witness's testimony? What is the judge referring to with "unreliable things said to a Allison." Thanks.

I think there are some words missing in this tweet. Will see if I can find another version of it.

 

[LouH]

Can someone explain this to me? I've been browsing the court documents and had a look at Allison's phone records. The stand out for me was this entry:

At 06:31 on April 20 Allison's phone records show she accessed the internet on her phone! The origin of the internet session is listed as Fig Tree Pocket and the session lasted 13 minutes!!!!

Has this already been discussed? Who used the phone that morning to browse the net? Doesn't TMC live at Fig Tree Pocket? This seems like a HUGE issue but perhaps I missed the discussion about it??????????

 

[Freya1977]

Interesting....with EBC falling asleep in court today and snoring on and off.....I wonder who did kill ABC.....the defence say she died either by seratonin syndrome, drowning or jumping off bridge, Judge seems to discount all of those theories. Ok so who can you think of....the tooth fairy? IMO

Oh my god I didn't dream it!!! I swore I heard a couple of snores come from her, then I thought she was stifling a sneeze or something - I didn't think she could have possibly fallen asleep... Unreal!

 

[Happygolucky]

I don't have your same life experience but I also don't think the blood proves anything.

I am puzzled by blood transfer but no plant matter.

And I am well and truly in the minority.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am also in the minority. I believe GBC probably is guilty but I still don't believe it has been proved beyond reasonable doubt. There may be many reasons a small amount of Alison's blood is in the car. Over my life I have probably had small bleeds hundrens of times--anything from a ripped finger nail, small cut, paper cut, knife cut, trauma etc. and I have bled in hundreds of places--inside, outside, in bed, at the table , on the floor, in cars etc. the very small amount of blood could have got there any time in the previous 8 weeks and is not necessarily associated with the night of Alison's disappearance.

 

[Freya1977]

I think that this is where my question came from Alioop. What does this mean? What is a risk witness's testimony? What is the judge referring to with "unreliable things said to a Allison." Thanks.

The reporting is incorrect. The judge actually warned the jury to be wary of things that witnesses have stated Allison said, as it is second-hand and there is room for error etc. Nobody can be sure of what Allison said to anyone, that's what he was warning about

What came to mind is Allison going to EBC to discuss depression lol

 

[alioop]

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · 33s


Judge says evidence of things the deceased has said can be unreliable. Most of it is secondhand. #badenclay

Further to my last post about looking for a better quote, this one is clearer. Allison obviously can't give evidence so someone giving evidence saying Allison said something can be unreliable. That witness may be lying, may have misunderstood, or just isn't correct. Without Allison to clarify what she said, it's a risk to accept that evidence.
Hope that helps.

 

[alioop]

Snap Freya! Thanks.

 

[Susan12]

I couldn't tell you how it got there, if I could I'd be either the prosecution or defence star witness

I have cut myself in my car in the before (long story!) but it's not necessary for the cut to have been inflicted by something in the car. She could have cut herself on anything outside the car and transferred it to the interior, it could even have been a sharp edge on the metal immediately adjacent to to the stain. It's in an area where it's not at all unlikely that she would have come into contact while assisting a child in the back seat for instance (other possible reasons, but you get where I am going I am sure).

We will know in the coming days whether the jury has an issue with it. Personally I do have an issue with it, but 12 other people are perfectly capable of coming to an entirely different conclusion and well, let's hope so for the sake of Allison and her family. While I try to remain completely objective, a large part of my working life (as a non verified expert of course) has been dedicated to exploring alternate, and sometimes even unlikely scenarios so I hope you can understand my ingrained perspective may alter from the majority at times (and again, let's hope this is the case).

I have some questions for you.

What kind of injury do you think she could get to cause that much blood that her husband wouldn't be told about or notice the injury? (only had the car for 8 weeks so not a long time to need to look back over)

What do you think she could have been doing to have gotten the blood in that location in the car?

What do you think she could have been doing in the car there to get the blood spilt in a running down fashion in that location?

Do you think she would have bled that much without knowing and without cleaning it up from the car?

The kids said no toys were in the car last they knew and they had put their bags in the back before. Allison back from the hairdresser late. Who do you think put the toys in Allison's car that night/morning? If Allison when do you think she might have done it and why then? If Gerard why do you think he did it and in Allison's car not his own? Why do you think he'd lie about it if nothing to hide in the car?

Does that give you any reasonable alternative to what the prosecution suggest or support their claims?

Finally, not seeing enough detail with one thing about the case doesn't mean the whole case is thrown and not guilty. There are other factors to consider as well.

 

[FigTree]

DAY 17 BADEN-CLAY TRIAL – WEBSLEUTHS THREAD COLLECTION – TWEETS
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...own-v-Gerard-Baden-Clay-9th-July-Trial-Day-17

In order of postings on WS by the Websleuth Re-Tweet Team –
drsleuth, Amee, Freya, Prime Suspect (if I've left someone out please let me know!)

MSM Tweeters
David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD
Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou
Tessa Scott ‏@TessaScott9
#badenclay @9NewsBrisbane
Sarah Elks ‏@sarahelks
Ebony Cavallaro ‏@ebonycavallaro
Francene Norton ‏@francenenorton
Sarah Greenhalgh ‏@GreenhalghSarah



DAY 17 COMMENCES

• Geoff and Priscilla Dickie, daughter Vanessa in court for trial day 16 #badenclay
• We're in court waiting to make a start for Baden-Clay. Expecting this to be the final day.
• #badenclay trial updates today from @couriermail can be found here:http://bit.ly/1ozfsgR
• Nigel and Elaine Baden-Clay, daughter Olivia and son Adam in their usual seats in court behind Gerard #badenclay
• Gerard, 1m away, motionless and silent in the dock as we wait for the jury #badenclay
• The jury is entering the courtroom. We'll start with Todd Fuller who is expected to finish his closing argument this morning. #badenclay
• Prosecutor Todd Fuller is back on his feet. #badenclay
• Day 17 has begun. Prosecutor Todd Fuller is speaking about financial situation.
• Fuller is clarifying some information he gave yesterday on Gerard's financial position. #badenclay
• Fuller asks how Gerard would have sold his business with Allison working there. #badenclay
• Fuller says financially, leaving Allison was not an option. #badenclay
• Justice John Byrne will order the Sheriff of Queensland to investigate an approach to the #badenclay jury
• If Gerard was selling the business, how would that work - Fuller #badenclay
• How could he afford to leave his wife - Fuller #badenclay
• Fuller says Gerard told the marriage counsellor, Carmel Ritchie, his wife didn't trust him. #badenclay
• Fuller says Gerard was only there because Allison wanted him to go, not because he wanted to save the marriage. #badenclay
• Gerard goes to counselling with wife April 16, wants to get on with his life and wipe the slate clean - Fuller #badenclay
• Fuller says the advice Gerard got from the marriage counsellor was to sit and listen to his wife. #badenclay
• Advice is to sit and listen to his wife for 15 minutes at a time - Fuller #badenclay
• Allison found out about the Toni McHugh affair the previous year, until then thought it was all her fault - Fuller #badenclay
• Fuller says Allison always blamed herself. But after the affair, she knew someone else was at fault. #badenclay
• Fuller says Allison was "over the moon" Gerard had gone to see the counsellor. He says it's an insight into her mind. #badenclay
• Fuller says the phrase did not mean they were back on an even keel as Gerard suggested. #badenclay
• Fuller says Gerard would have the jury believe it was just Toni McHugh making the contact. Not true. The emails show that. #badenclay
• April 18. Toni says they were still having daily contact - Fuller #badenclay
• Fuller says just like the explanation of the shaving cuts, just like the finances, he had to make up a story to explain actions. #badenclay
• Fuller says he tells Toni McHugh he loves her, he tells her in the emails and on the phone. #badenclay
• Fuller says how do you put all that together other than he loves Toni. #badenclay
• Fuller says Gerard's claim that he and Allison's question and answer session was on April 18 is not true. #badenclay
• Fuller says Gerard made it clear to the police early on that it was on April 19. #badenclay
• Fuller is talking about the night of April 18 when Nigel and Elaine came to watch the children. #badenclay
• Fuller asks is that when Allison retired for the night and wrote out her list of questions? #badenclay
• Fuller says Allison retired and left her husband watching TV with his parents. #badenclay
• Fuller asks if Allison was so upset about the birth of her nephew, what happens the next day? #badenclay
• Fuller says April 19 was a normal day. Allison took the children to school, told friends she was happy about the birth. #badenclay
• Fuller: Nobody has noticed anything unusual. #badenclay
• Prosecutor Todd Fuller says Gerard's statements to police show he and Allison talked April 19, not the 18th as Gerard claimed #badenclay
• If Allison was so upset about failing to produce a male heir, it is business as usual for her April 19 - Fuller #badenclay
• She expressed happy about her nephew, nobody noticed anything unusual April 19 - Fuller #badenclay
• She spent the day planning for the future in the business, talked about her family, laughing and joking with staff - Fuller #badenclay
• All the staff described her as being excited about the conference the next day - Fuller #badenclay
• Fuller says and yet, Gerard would have you believe the question and answer session happened the night before. #badenclay
• Fuller says on April 19, staff described Allison as upbeat, laughing and joking, introduced a trainer to her husband. #badenclay
• Fuller says Allison was excited about the conference the next day, was excited about plans for the business. #badenclay
• Fuller says even Gerard told the police everything was fine, no reason that his wife would disappear. #badenclay
• Fuller says Allison had a hair appointment, children were at the school cross country. #badenclay
• It's all on the up for Allison - Fuller #badenclay
• Fuller says the kids ate dinner at Nigel and Elaine's, then went home and were tucked into bed. #badenclay
• Fuller says what we didn't hear about was the conversation with Toni McHugh, except from Toni McHugh. #badenclay
• Gerard told police there was no reason his wife would disappear, everything was fine - Fuller #badenclay
• Children tell us it was the normal routine that night - Fuller #badenclay
• For half an hour after 5pm that day Gerard spoke to Toni McHugh - Fuller #badenclay
• Fuller - phone records show Gerard #badenclay spoke to Toni McHugh for 30-odd minutes after 5pm on April 19, 2012.
• Fuller says from about 5.03pm until about 5.40pm, Gerard was talking to Toni McHugh. #badenclay
• Fuller says the conversation was inflamed when it was raised that Allison and Toni would be at the same conference the next day. #badenclay
• Fuller says Gerard uses the words "two of my staff are going". Doesn't have the courage to say straight up it was his wife. #badenclay
• Fuller says Gerard said both Allison and Toni contacted him when they bumped into each other at the gym. #badenclay
• Fuller says Allison had flashbacks about it. Gerard insists he was not concerned about the two women running into each other. #badenclay
• It's inflamed when he says there's something he needs to tell Toni - Fuller #badenclay
• The words he uses 'there's two of my employees going' to the next days conference - Fuller #badenclay
• We've heard earlier Allison had flashbacks about seeing Toni McHugh at a gym - Fuller #badenclay
• But Gerard tells you he had nothing to worry about - Fuller #badenclay
• How does Toni McHugh react - Fuller #badenclay
• The previous year, Allison had found out about the affair. Toni realised she had to leave Gerard's business - Fuller #badenclay
• When Toni found out about the conference, she told Gerard it was unfair on both her and Allison - Fuller #badenclay
• The previous year, Allison had found out about the affair. Toni realised she had to leave Gerard's business - Fuller #badenclay
• McHugh takes a stand, says they have to meet and sort out where they are going - Fuller #badenclay
• Fuller says Gerard said both Allison and Toni contacted him when they bumped into each other at the gym. #badenclay
• Fuller says Allison had flashbacks about it. Gerard insists he was not concerned about the two women running into each other. #badenclay
• Fuller says Toni made the decision to leave the business herself after Allison found out about the affair. #badenclay
• Fuller says Toni was angry at person who let the affair slip. No suggestion that she was angry at Gerard until he made the claim. #badenclay
• Fuller asks the jury to believe Toni's version of events. Toni told Gerard it was unfair for both women to be at the conference. #badenclay
• Fuller says Toni had no option. She's just started a new job. She had to go. #badenclay
• She's been blindsided. She's just started a new job, has to go to the conference - Fuller #badenclay
• You might think that's a significant pressure as of 5.40pm - Fuller #badenclay
• Is he going to just ignore it - Fuller #badenclay
• He told Toni he was thinking of selling his business - Fuller #badenclay
• He'd tried to get $300,000 from MP Bruce Flegg, said he would go bankrupt, just weeks earlier - Fuller #badenclay
• Roles had been reversed, Toni used to be in the business, now it was Allison - Fuller #badenclay
• Toni was angry, expressed it - Fuller #badenclay
• Any disclosure the next day by Toni to Allison would have catastrophic effects to him - Fuller #badenclay
• Fuller says it was that afternoon, April 19, on the phone to Toni, that he said he was going to sell the business. #badenclay
• Fuller says it had not been that long since Gerard had told Sue Heath on the phone that he was about to go broke. #badenclay
• Fuller says Toni said she was angry on the phone, she was expressing her anger. #badenclay
• Fuller says it was that afternoon, April 19, on the phone to Toni, that he said he was going to sell the business. #badenclay
• Fuller says it had not been that long since Gerard had told Sue Heath on the phone that he was about to go broke. #badenclay
• Fuller says Toni said she was angry on the phone, she was expressing her anger. #badenclay
• Fuller says in September, 2011, Gerard had to make significant changes. He told his staff about affair, Allison came to work. #badenclay
• Fuller asks what was going to happen in Allison Baden-Clay found out for a second time. #badenclay
• That's what happened in September 2011 when Allison found out about the affair. She thought it was over - Fuller #badenclay
• His choices were to tell Allison about the impending meeting or do nothing - Fuller #badenclay
• He tried to live without Toni and couldn't do it, he had to have her back in his life - Fuller #badenclay
• He was going to be shown to be disingenuous in counselling, his undertakings, promises - Fuller #badenclay
• He was either going to be a coward or a fool - Fuller #badenclay
• The risks to his marriage, children, friends, business were huge - Fuller #badenclay
• Add that to the scratches on his face, the leaves in her hair, her blood in the car - Fuller #badenclay
• Fuller says Toni insisted Gerard warn Allison. He says you might say that's significant pressure on Gerard. #badenclay
• Fuller says it was that afternoon, April 19, on the phone to Toni, that he said he was going to sell the business. #badenclay
• Fuller says it had not been that long since Gerard had told Sue Heath on the phone that he was about to go broke. #badenclay
• Fuller says Toni said she was angry on the phone, she was expressing her anger. #badenclay
• Fuller says in September, 2011, Gerard had to make significant changes. He told his staff about affair, Allison came to work. #badenclay
• Fuller asks what was going to happen in Allison Baden-Clay found out for a second time. #badenclay
• Fuller says Gerard claimed he did nothing about the two women meeting the next day, that he had no concern. #badenclay
• Fuller: When the ultimatum was coming the second time, what decision would he make. #badenclay
• Fuller says he was going to be shown to be disingenuous, a coward or a fool. #badenclay
• Fuller says you would think the person risks to Gerard were huge. #badenclay
• Yet he doesn't mention any of these events when he talks to the police that day - Fuller #badenclay
• Add that to the scratches on his face, the leaves in her hair, her blood in the car - Fuller #badenclay
• When he gets up, he has no explanation for his phone being put o charge at 1.48am - Fuller #badenclay
• There's phone calls to Allison almost straight away. Why? - Fuller #badenclay
• Why straight after 6.32am does he begin a series of calls - Fuller #badenclay
• He says she normally goes for a walk. Would you be concerned by that time of the morning - Fuller #badenclay
• Gerard hasn't moved in the dock since Crown prosecutor Todd Fuller QC resumed his closing statement this morning - Fuller #badenclay
• Yet he doesn't mention any of these events when he talks to the police that day - Fuller #badenclay
• Add that to the scratches on his face, the leaves in her hair, her blood in the car - Fuller #badenclay
• When he gets up, he has no explanation for his phone being put o charge at 1.48am - Fuller #badenclay
• There's phone calls to Allison almost straight away. Why? - Fuller #badenclay
• Why straight after 6.32am does he begin a series of calls - Fuller #badenclay
• He says she normally goes for a walk. Would you be concerned by that time of the morning - Fuller #badenclay
• Gerard hasn't moved in the dock since Crown prosecutor Todd Fuller QC resumed his closing statement this morning - Fuller #badenclay
• Fuller says he was in jeopardy, in respect to his friends, family, business. #badenclay
• Fuller says you add that to the scratches, the blood in the car, the leaves in her hair. #badenclay
• Fuller says Gerard has no explanation for his charger being connected at 1.48am other than it must have been Allison. #badenclay
• Fuller says that morning, April 20, there are a series of phone calls to Allison almost straight away. #badenclay
• Fuller says, why is that? He doesn't know what time Allison is supposed to be meeting Kate Rankine for the conference. #badenclay
• Fuller is showing the text message Gerard sent to Allison at 6.41am asking where she is. #badenclay
• Fuller says where are you? The cars are there, she could only have gone for a walk. #badenclay
• Fuller says the message talks about girls being up, making lunches. It was always the plan for Gerard to get girls ready. #badenclay
• Fuller says Gerard didn't bundle the girls into the car and do a quick couple of laps. He called his parents and waited for them. #badenclay
• Gerard's text message to his wife at 6.41am shown to court - Fuller #badenclay
• A text earlier then that as well - Fuller #badenclay
• At 6.44am he calls his parents. Doesn't put the kids in the car and do some laps - Fuller #badenclay
• Requires his father to come over - Fuller #badenclay
• He calls police, Indooroopilly, before he has looked for his wife - Fuller #badenclay
• Gerard's text message to his wife at 6.41am shown to court - Fuller #badenclay
• A text earlier then that as well - Fuller #badenclay

 

[Inspector]

Wow 147 on this thread! I recognize a lot of names. Welcome also the the new :websleuther: who are lurking :lurk: we appreciate anything anyone has to contribute, so don't be shy to contribute :seeya:

 

[Freya1977]

Can someone explain this to me? I've been browsing the court documents and had a look at Allison's phone records. The stand out for me was this entry:

At 06:31 on April 20 Allison's phone records show she accessed the internet on her phone! The origin of the internet session is listed as Fig Tree Pocket and the session lasted 13 minutes!!!!

Has this already been discussed? Who used the phone that morning to browse the net? Doesn't TMC live at Fig Tree Pocket? This seems like a HUGE issue but perhaps I missed the discussion about it??????????

Yes that's the last activity on her phone. It connected to the internet, but doesn't mean someone was actually using the phone. Smart phones access data for many things such as updates etc, or say, if an app isn't shut down.

 

[wewillgetyou]

With regards to Mrs BC falling asleep in court, I really feel that she is on some type of medication. The day I was in court and sat behind her and watched her walk in and out and back in again I thought that her eyes were puffy and her smile was a forced smile. She seemed to be 'fake it till you make it' happy.
I wouldn't be surprised if she was on some sort of sedative or antidepressant herself.

If you compare photos of her at Allisons funeral and those taken outside the court she ( in my opinion ) has most certainly put on weight in her face. Some medications can do that

 

[Freya1977]

Snap Freya! Thanks.

Haha snap!

 

[itsthevibe]

Originally Posted by BreakingNews

Allioops, do you know when the law in Queensland got changed? When I was a juror on a murder trial in the mid 1990's, the judge told us that we could only decide on guilty or not guilty of murder. We were told we couldn't deviate to manslaughter as it wasn't the original charge (We would not have gone for manslaughter even if we could). So I've lived all these years thinking that a jury couldn't change a murder charge to manslaughter.
Appreciate your comments.

Originally Posted by Alioop BN I don't know but will see what I can find.

BN Today in Court the judge explained to them how they could either find him Guilty of Murder, or Manslaughter or neither, and he explained what each one meant. the way I understand it is that it is not actually the jury changing the 'charge', the charge stays the same, but the verdict can be "He is not guilty of the charge of Murder - but he is guilty of Manslaughter". Basically it's an alternative which allows them to still return a guilty verdict if they feel it fits in more with manslaughter.

I think it all revolves around the difference between the charge, his plea and the verdict. The law about the verdict is based around providing the most just options. My opinion only, just my thoughts and very laypersons understanding. I'm sure Ali or another legal person can explain it better.

 

[JK673]

In this type of case If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and walks like a duck.....it has a very HIGH probability that it IS a duck.....