MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #11

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I respectfully disagree.

We have not heard from the state autopsy which is the most important one, IMO. There might be major discrepancies between Dr. Baden's autopsy and the states autopsy, IMO.

For instance: the gash in MB's hand. Was it a close range wound caused by the gun while MB was supposedly trying to get a hold of ODW's gun. Dr. Baden can not make a determination as the body has already be washed (in case there is gun-shot residue), Dr. Baden did not have the clothing of MB to determine if there was gun-shot residue or MB's blood on it, caused from a possible close-range shooting. Dr. Baden had no possibility to view and exam the inside of ODW's vehicle (bullet hole, MB's blood, gun-shot residue, other signs of a possible struggle like MB's blood on the window frame).

I agree with this Ocean. We have not seen the state's autopsy and that one being the first one is the one most likely to have better, more comprehensive complete results. As Dr Baden clearly stated, there is much he cannot determine because of the circumstances of not having x-rays, having received the body after the first autopsy, not having the clothing, the body having been washed and embalmed, etc. So it seems obvious to me that the first autopsy will be teh most comprehensive and the one that has the least credibility issues. The links I provided a page or so back for Apollo regarding the embalming also went into great detail about what is done during autopsy. Not to be too graphic for the more squeamish on here, but during autopsy internal organs are removed, weighed etc. The top of the skull is opened and the brain removed. The body is washed. All of these actions affect the body for subsequent autopsy, and that is without even going into what effects the embalming of the body have.
 
:bump:
Since we've circled back to autopsies, and how they are done, and the possible limitations of subsequent autopsies I thought I'd bump :)

In my search, I came across this article. Very informative. It's a little lengthy, and has a few comments regarding autopsies that the very squeamish, might well, get squeamish. Great read though IMO.

(CNN) -- Michael Brown, Eric Garner and John Crawford all have one thing in common: It's not just that they were unarmed men of color killed by police officers -- it's that the responsibility to investigate each of their deaths fell to a medical examiner.

We medical examiners investigate all homicides and violent deaths, and it is also part of our legal duty to investigate any death of a person under the control of, or in the custody of, a law enforcement agent.
I have worked as a medical examiner for 13 years in four large cities in the United States. Medical examiner offices are independent public agencies, and one of our responsibilities is to act as quality control over law enforcement agencies. The medical examiner is the final arbiter of whether a death was the direct result of an arrest, or, instead, the result of natural disease or an incidental event.

Medical examiner reports in most states are public records. We all deserve and should expect transparency in death investigation. The family of the deceased, the news media and anyone who asks for it can get a copy of the medical examiner's or coroner's autopsy report on any case that is not sealed as part of an active investigation.


Medical examiners are physicians, specialists in forensic pathology. We are professionally protective of our independence. We know that it is our duty and responsibility, as the doctors who perform the autopsy, to speak for the dead.

Unfortunately, in the wake of the death of a civilian at the hand of police officers, the public is often suspicious of the medical examiner.

Because the law requires a local government agency to perform the death investigation, people often assume that this agency falls under the jurisdiction or influence of the police. News reports critical of the amount of time the dead body was left at the scene, or the amount of time it takes to get a final autopsy report, exacerbate this distrust.

In St. Louis County, Missouri, where Michael Brown was autopsied, Dr. Mary Case, the chief medical examiner, is a board-certified forensic pathologist. She has years of experience and reports to the Health Department, not the police.

Brown's official autopsy report was expedited and finalized on Monday. It was made available to the prosecuting attorney, who is now in charge of any release of information.

Why does a death scene investigation take so long? An outdoor death scene is a messy and complicated place. As soon as the person has been declared dead, the area has to be frozen in time to ensure that we, the public, can later learn what really happened there. Crime scene photographers and trained evidence collection analysts have to "process the scene," an hourslong procedure when done properly. The body, the position of any vehicles, the lighting, the height of adjacent structures --everything needs to be photographed from multiple angles. In a shooting, crime scene investigators will have to measure and document the number and location of the casings, bullets and strike marks. If the evidence and its undisturbed location are not documented in this painstaking way, then criminal or civil complaints against the officer may not stand up in court.

But what about the autopsy report? Why does that take so long? That's because a competent job in the morgue, too, takes time. The work I do as a doctor in the autopsy suite after a typical gunshot wound homicide case may take three or four hours to complete, but after I leave the morgue, the report is not done.

I have to wait for the report from the toxicology lab, which usually takes a minimum of two weeks, and for histology slides to come back before I can examine them under a microscope. Any of these findings could impact the cause of death.

Even gunshot wounds cannot be interpreted in a vacuum. As part of an investigation I have to try to figure out which defects in the body come from bullets entering, and which from their exit. Usually these wounds are distinctly different in appearance, but the more complex the body position of the deceased, the more complicated things get. Exit wounds in flesh pressed against the ground or against tight clothing can appear just like entrance wounds. An entrance wound inflicted through an intermediary target that deformed the bullet can look just like an exit wound. Sometimes I have to wait for the police reports or witness transcripts in to correctly interpret what I see on the body in the autopsy suite.
After the shooting in Ferguson, Michael Brown's family hired Dr. Michael Baden, a former New York State Police medical examiner, to conduct a second autopsy, and the federal Department of Justice instructed the Armed Forces Medical Examiner to conduct a third.

What you can tell from a second or third autopsy is limited by autopsy artifact -- changes to the evidence caused by the performance of the first autopsy. In the course of the first, legally mandated autopsy, the forensic pathologist will have taken the organs out and sliced them apart for examination. The gunshot wounds will have been probed, and sometimes even cut into. More importantly, any pathologist hired by the family, regardless of expertise, does not have access to the crime scene and other evidence. Even Baden, in the report he prepared for the Brown family, concluded that without the clothing, evidence or scene information, he had "too little information to forensically reconstruct the shooting."

Why weren't the St. Louis medical examiner's autopsy findings made public immediately? Because releasing preliminary information when the investigation is still ongoing is premature and potentially inflammatory. Already the results of Baden's limited investigation are being used to support the contention that Brown was surrendering, and that the wounds were distant range, even though Baden himself said neither. To a forensic pathologist, the body diagram Brown's attorneys released tells a different story. The wound at the top of the head, the frontal wounds and angled right hand and arm wounds suggest that the victim was facing the officer, leaning forward with his right arm possibly extended in line with the gun's barrel, and not above his head. The image of a person standing upright with his hands in the air when he was shot does not appear compatible with the wounds documented on that diagram. Whether a forward-leaning position is a posture of attack or of surrender, however, is a matter of perspective. From the perspective of a witness, it could appear that the leaning person is complying with the officer and getting down. From the perspective of the officer, he may appear to be coming at him. Partial evidence yields partial answers, and a rush to conclusions based on one isolated set of data from a second autopsy only raises more questions.

That is why it is so important to be patient and wait for all the scene information to come to light.
But "be patient and wait" is not a demand that anyone has the right to make on a family that has lost a loved one in a sudden and violent event. When I have been assigned to investigate an in-custody or officer-involved death, I will often call the family right away. It's important to me to reach out to them, to tell the people who are awaiting answers from me that I am qualified to do the job I am trained for; that I will hide nothing from them; that everything I do on their behalf will be part of the public record; and to give them some idea of how long the process might take. When the report is finished, I meet with family members or their attorneys to discuss the findings and explain the medical diagnoses I have come to. This solemn conference takes place behind the scenes, months after the incident, and is never reported in the news media -- but it is probably the most important part of my job.

As a doctor and a civil servant, I take my public role seriously. I strive to with all my ability, training and effort to answer any questions that person's family may have. I know that others in my field strive with the same effort. It's why we went into our field of medicine. We are servants of the public -- not of the state, not of any single law firm, and not of the police.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/20/opinion/melinek-michael-brown-autopsy/index.html

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I suppose there is Snoop the felon and Snoop the artist. People tend to separate the two.
I can't.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I feel the same way about Michael Jackson and Woody Allen. And Roman Polanski. And probably a lot of other people. It's just icky the way we make allowances for celebrity. But I can't help kind of liking Snoop. I guess because his mess did not involve child molestation?

I really don't know, but that must be my "line". I did not realize it until just now.


Sorry for the semi-OT.
 
I find the MO law concerning this very interesting. It has a lot of helpful information about how the GJ works also.

So lets say for argument sake that MB did assault Officer Wilson. Officer Wilson would absolutely know that MB had just committed a class A felony because he was the one being attacked. If this is true and I believe that it is.....when MB assaulted OW he became a suspect in a Class A Felony.

So when DW tried to stop MB when he tried to escape he knew he had just committed a felony. At that time MB had turned into a suspect, imo. He was no longer just someone walking in the middle of the street but his actions were felonious toward DW.

If the jury follows the law... as they will take an oath to do... by the MO law they will find the deadly force reasonable, imo. DW knew that he had already been attacked by MB and it is reasonable to believe he could go on to attack others or MB could even return to attack him.

Even if DW didn't know about the strong armed robbery, which I am not convinced he didn't know by that time, then it does show that MB seem to have a big chip on his shoulder that day and was aggressive toward others. Anyone that assaults a police officer must be apprehended and that is what DW was trying to do. IMO

What does Missouri law provide on police use of deadly force?
Missouri law gives police officers broad power to use force to make an arrest or prevent a felon’s escape. It states: “A law enforcement officer in effecting an arrest or in preventing an escape from custody is justified in using deadly force only …. when he reasonably believes that such use of deadly force is immediately necessary to effect the arrest and also reasonably believes that the person to be arrested (a) has committed or attempted to commit a felony; or (b) is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon; or (c) may otherwise endanger life or inflict serious physical injury unless arrested without delay.”

http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/whats-grand-jury-how-will-it-work-ferguson-case

So MB fits the law both in A and B.


And if it is true that MB attempted to escape but turned around and came back toward OW then IMO he had every right to shoot him. He had already been attacked by MB once so he knew he was dangerous.

That would be an interesting argument. I can see all kinds of problems with that argument(not the logic, but if that argument holds up, then the consequences and meaning of it) but it is certainly interesting.
 
Honestly, I don't.
I'm curious as all get out....and have my suspicions.
But IMO it should have no baring on this case at all. His actions, that day are all that really matter. To me.



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You're right, his juvie record has no baring on this case.
But imoo it could show his possible disrespect of authority for example...............or if he had violent tendencies.
 
Good point, we do not know if OW was stationary or moving toward his suspect as he was firing.

We also don't know if MB was closing the distance between him and officer Wilson at a rapid or slow pace. It's hard to come to a conclusion about distances and timing with what we know at this point. JMO.
 
I respectfully disagree.

We have not heard from the state autopsy which is the most important one, IMO. There might be major discrepancies between Dr. Baden's autopsy and the states autopsy, IMO.

For instance: the gash in MB's hand. Was it a close range wound caused by the gun while MB was supposedly trying to get a hold of ODW's gun. Dr. Baden can not make a determination as the body has already be washed (in case there is gun-shot residue), Dr. Baden did not have the clothing of MB to determine if there was gun-shot residue or MB's blood on it, caused from a possible close-range shooting. Dr. Baden had no possibility to view and exam the inside of ODW's vehicle (bullet hole, MB's blood, gun-shot residue, other signs of a possible struggle like MB's blood on the window frame).

I believe that I said I had not HEARD of any major discrepancies. I did NOT say that there are not any because I do not know. That said, I agree with you. JMO
 
I really don't mean to sound snarky here but how do you know he is believable? I haven't even seen him speak yet much less give his version of events. How do you know he was well trained? He might have been, but I haven't seen anything to tell me what his training involved. All I do know is he came from a department that had to be shut down amid controversy. But I don't even know if that is where he got his training. Spotless records help, but don't tell the whole story. There are a lot of thieves out there with spotless records too. I only say all this only because again, I think judgments on both sides are just being made too quick with too little information.


Not to mention, he would hardly be an unbiased witness. I don't discount OW's word, but it isn't gospel for me and certainly not enough for me to say "Well, alrighty then. That's all I need".

I understand that some may think differently. I just want to wait to see what autopsy and forensics reveal before deciding what's what.
 
When I found out Baden was going to do the family's autopsy, I was pretty confident that he would be objective.

By now, after seeing him say some of the things he's said, most notably, his statements about Wilson, I've completely lost trust in him. It makes me sad and a little angry.
 
I agree with this Ocean. We have not seen the state's autopsy and that one being the first one is the one most likely to have better, more comprehensive complete results. As Dr Baden clearly stated, there is much he cannot determine because of the circumstances of not having x-rays, having received the body after the first autopsy, not having the clothing, the body having been washed and embalmed, etc. So it seems obvious to me that the first autopsy will be teh most comprehensive and the one that has the least credibility issues. The links I provided a page or so back for Apollo regarding the embalming also went into great detail about what is done during autopsy. Not to be too graphic for the more squeamish on here, but during autopsy internal organs are removed, weighed etc. The top of the skull is opened and the brain removed. The body is washed. All of these actions affect the body for subsequent autopsy, and that is without even going into what effects the embalming of the body have.

Absolutely, tlcya.

I would be most interested to read about the state's autopsy. And I'm very curious what the toxicology report will reveal, if there were any other substances or drugs or medical drugs in MB's system.

I am also wondering about the abrasions on MB's face, Dr. Baden had mentioned. Dr. Baden interpreted those abrasions were caused by MB "falling flat on his face". But I wonder if they were caused when MB was supposedly bum rushing ODW, running full speed and being then shot, if his body was "still in motion" from the running and sliding on the ground. JMO.
 
I feel the same way about Michael Jackson and Woody Allen. And Roman Polanski. And probably a lot of other people. It's just icky the way we make allowances for celebrity. But I can't help kind of liking Snoop. I guess because his mess did not involve child molestation?

I really don't know, but that must be my "line". I did not realize it until just now.


Sorry for the semi-OT.

I kind of like Snoop because I watched a bit of his reality show and he seems like a good father and a very involved father. I dont care about people smoking pot. It is pretty much legal here in Cali, anyway. And I grew up in Berkeley in the 60's, so I can't point fingers at anyone. lol
 
That's why I wish we could see a drawing or photo that shows the scene where we knew we were definitely looking at OW's car and then measure that to MB's body using google earth. I think I'm clear on which car was OW's, but can't be 100% sure and the angles of the photos used don't let me get a good landmark to compare to the google map image.

We also don't know if MB was closing the distance between him and officer Wilson at a rapid or slow pace. It's hard to come to a conclusion about distances and timing with what we know at this point. JMO.
 
I'm interested in MB's juvie record as it might show another, even stronger motive for him to avoid arrest. (See boytwnmom's post from yesterday or Saturday)
 
That is what really bothers me too. They are making this felon out to be a martyr, a true hero. And all the young black kids look up to him and see all the great stars like Snoop, who came to his grand funeral. And what exactly did he do to deserve this huge televised memorial? He strong-armed a lil old clerk for some bluntwraps, then bum rushed a cop, fought with him in the vehicle over the gun, then was killed in the aftermath. And that makes him a national hero? :no:

Terrible message for the youth coming up.Instead of making him out to be amartyr, they should be addressing how MB bad choices led to his death.How will things like this ever stop if being a thief and assaulting a police officer turns him into a hero. I also think fund raising beyond the cost of a funeral and a few weeks pay sends an equally bad message.Parents lose children in many ways and they are not given hundreds of thousands of dollars especially when they die committing a crime.Very bad message they are sending out to the youth.Crime does pay it seems.
 
Mr. Brown’s friend said he swung after the officer grabbed his neck and was shot after running away, hitting the ground with his hands raised in surrender. He was hit at least six times, twice in the head. His 6-foot-4 frame lay face down in the middle of the warm pavement for hours, a stream of blood flowing down the street.

So did DJ really recant his first version of the story?

lots of interesting information on MB here.
He was a bully. imo

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/08/2...ling-with-lifes-mysteries.html?_r=0&referrer=

All posts are MOO
 
I believe that I said I had not HEARD of any major discrepancies. I did NOT say that there are not any because I do not know. That said, I agree with you. JMO

Thanks for your clarification.
 
I like Snoop Dogg, too, but you refer to him as a great star, while calling MB a felon.

I assume you do not know that Snoop Dogg has quite a checkered past himself?

<modsnip>


I just wonder why Snoop is called a great star and Mike is a felon? It appears they both broke that law, and actually Snoop appears to have Mike beat. IMO, with facts from Michelle Malkin.


Sorry, I figured Michelle Malkin would be allowed here.

Here is another article about one of Snoop's felonies. From MSM. He really is a multiple felon, I wasn't just making that up, I promise.


http://articles.latimes.com/2007/apr/12/local/me-snoop12
 
Mr. Brown&#8217;s friend said he swung after the officer grabbed his neck and was shot after running away, hitting the ground with his hands raised in surrender. He was hit at least six times, twice in the head. His 6-foot-4 frame lay face down in the middle of the warm pavement for hours, a stream of blood flowing down the street.

So did DJ really recant his first version of the story?

lots of interesting information on MB here.
He was a bully. imo

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/08/2...ling-with-lifes-mysteries.html?_r=0&referrer=

All posts are MOO


FERGUSON, Mo. &#8212; It was 1 a.m. and Michael Brown Jr. called his father, his voice trembling. He had seen something overpowering. In the thick gray clouds that lingered from a passing storm this past June, he made out an angel. And he saw Satan chasing the angel and the angel running into the face of God. Mr. Brown was a prankster, so his father and stepmother chuckled at first.

&#8220;No, no, Dad! No!&#8221; the elder Mr. Brown remembered his son protesting. &#8220;I&#8217;m serious.&#8221;

And the black teenager from this suburb of St. Louis, who had just graduated from high school, sent his father and stepmother a picture of the sky from his cellphone. &#8220;Now I believe,&#8221; he told them.=======================================================

I don't know about anyone else, but sounds to me like he was trippin or rollin...just saying.....
 
That would be an interesting argument. I can see all kinds of problems with that argument(not the logic, but if that argument holds up, then the consequences and meaning of it) but it is certainly interesting.

What kind of problems. I think it is very logical to think MB assaulted OW when he was in his patrol car and that would immediately make him a felony suspect who needed to be apprehended and arrested. It would be no different if he was trying to apprehend a felon who had assaulted someone else and they were trying to escape.

This is all that is really required under MO law for OW to be justified in using deadly force:

is justified in using deadly force only &#8230;. when he reasonably believes that such use of deadly force is immediately necessary to effect the arrest and also reasonably believes that the person to be arrested (a) has committed or attempted to commit a felony;

And for it to be an assault to a police officer the assault doesn't even have to be severe injuries. A mere assault on a police officer of any kind in any manner is still a class a felony.

IMO
 
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