Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #15

[Lalalacasbah]

No dealings with DG, but what about MH?

I took this as Winter had no dealings with DG and that any business connection between DG and AL happened before WP.

 

[LoriMcA]

It's been mentioned in the last couple of pages that there were 'two' pictures of the 'green truck' distributed to the public from LE. I have only seen one...Does anyone have the second or a link to that second picture? Thanks

 

[Slebby]

In a word, 'yes'!
Why? Because although they did find 'a' green truck, only evidence will prove that it is 'the' green truck. People HAVE in the past been wrongfully accused and even convicted here in this country. It has happened numerous times. It has happened that police focus on one thing, and then look for everything to fit neatly into that one thing, instead of looking out at everything to see where that everything may lead.
Police were tipped off that DG owned a green truck similar to the one pictured in the 2 photos released by LE. LE then went to the property, found DG's similar truck, took it away for examination, and took DG in for questioning. A day later, DG was released from questioning, because at that point LE had no choice but to let him go, or charge him. They did not have enough to charge him at that point, so they released him from questioning. If the truck had blood in it, which it presumably would have if these bodies were dragged down that stained walkway, LE would have seen it, and would have arrested him. Instead, in order to keep him detained for longer than they could rightfully detain him in regard to the murders, they charged him with the fake ID/impersonation charges. He was later released on $750 bail. By that time, LE had been combing his property with a fine toothed comb for days, taking whatever they felt could potentially be evidence, and re-arrested him after he was let out on bail, charging him with the murders and saying there was no smoking gun. Blood or evidence in the truck would have been a smoking gun, I would think, IMOO. We don't know if the truck was returned, or if DG would have to pick up the truck from a compound somewhere if it had been released, or if LE is keeping it as evidence, since LE is being very tight lipped about everything. Sometimes, what may seem like common sense, makes people come to conclusions before an accused has his day in court. I, for one, am dying to hear about all of this circumstantial evidence they have gathered, before I reach a guilty verdict.

Personally, I'm sort of tired of hearing about how people have been wrongly accused or even convicted. That circumstance is a rarity, IMO, and is really a lazy and convenient defence that can be employed in the defence of every defendant in every case. Plus we don't really need to be reminded of those rare instances, I'm pretty sure we're all equally as plugged into the news. I also think it's an insult to the police services that worked this case. The public scrutiny is incredible, the heartache to members of the police was huge, knowing a child was involved. Painting a picture of a sloppy investigation with investigators taking a shortcut to judgment is, well, cruel and IMO, there is no basis to suggest it.

Re: what they did or didn't find in the truck - blood is not the only evidence LE might have found. Or, it may not have been readily apparent, and may have required some time and lab testing. We don't know bodies were dragged in bags down the driveway to a truck, do we? We don't know if there was other CCTV footage of the truck. IMO, LE concluded they had enough evidence against DG beyond the fact that he drove a similar green truck, and out of a crazy coincidence, was also related by marriage and business dealings to the deceased.

Maybe it was not your intention, but you make it sound like the police pulled a fast one in charging DG with the identity theft offence as a ruse to hold him for the other crime. If DG was walking around with someone else's ID, that was his choice and LE did nothing improper in charging him.

IMHO

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I took this as Winter had no dealings with DG and that any business connection between DG and AL happened before WP.

I was going over all the possible uses for a false identity, like employee, investor, owner, customer, bank accounts, travel, and purchases... among other things. It sure will be interesting to see why the Crown expects to present the identity evidence at any murder trial.

 

[winnnancy]

Regarding the allegation that oil and gas employees are seedy, transient people that are busy making deals and connections, let's consider for a moment that both of Nathan's parents, and his grandfather, are/were oil and gas employees. I am actually offended that anyone would generalize about the oil industry in that way. In reality, oil/gas industry employees are professional, hard working engineers, engineering technologists, accountants, lawyers, and other professionals that conduct themselves according to the expectations of their profession. They should not under any circumstances be portrayed as seedy, transient people that have drug connections.

I took this as a gross generalization about an entire industry based on what sounds like a description of renegade riggers! I feel this might be insulting to a great many Albertans!

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Regarding the allegation that oil and gas employees are seedy, transient people that are busy making deals and connections, let's consider for a moment that both of Nathan's parents, and his grandfather, are/were oil and gas employees. I am actually offended that anyone would generalize about the oil industry in that way. In reality, oil/gas industry employees are professional, hard working engineers, engineering technologists, accountants, lawyers, and other professionals that conduct themselves according to the expectations of their profession. They should not under any circumstances be portrayed as seedy, transient people that have drug connections.

No one made that allegation, and every profession will say the exact same thing. Yet, organized crime exists. It launders the proceeds of crime through legitimate, and seemingly legitimate companies and activities, among other ways. Every profession, from LE, to lawyers, to engineers, to doctors have their bad apples.

I certainly hope if LE ever gets any tips about organized crime in the oil and gas industry, that they don't just dismiss it. Feh, we don't need to look into it, they're engineers for heaven's sake.

Even the Vatican's accountant was recently charged with money laundering. Google it.

 

[LoisLane]

No one made that allegation, and every profession will say the exact same thing. Yet, organized crime exists. It launders the proceeds of crime through legitimate, and seemingly legitimate companies and activities, among other ways. Every profession, from LE, to lawyers, to engineers, to doctors have their bad apples.

I certainly hope if LE ever gets any tips about organized crime in the oil and gas industry, that they don't just dismiss it. Feh, we don't need to look into it, they're engineers for heaven's sake.

Even the Vatican's accountant was recently charged with money laundering. Google it.

Might I add that drugs, prostitution, sports betting, mortgage fraud are a huge problem as well.
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/10/22/crime-pays-for-alberta-gangs

The last line in this article...
“The Alberta Advantage — a good economy and lots of money.”

 

[Salem]

Okay - let's put the drug discussion, as it pertains to the victims, away for now. If something breaks in MSM, then it can be reconsidered.

And, as always, please remember to be respectful of each other. This is not a contest, it is an exploration.

Thanks,

Salem

 

[Tinkerbel1]

If the victims have been connected with drugs, mafia, the underground, or bikers, please post a link to support that claim.
Without a link to support the claim, it is a fact that the victims have not in any way been connected with the above.

Perhaps when people see Nexen or Cenovus employees taking lunch breaks in their suits, they imagine that they are seedy, transient (not sure what a transient oil/gas employee is) weirdos making deals and connections ... I don't know why anyone would think that ... but perhaps they do. The facts of the case are straight forward, and there is no factual information connecting the victims to drugs.

In fact, I think it's absolutely bizarre that anyone thinks that the Calgary oil and gas industry is filled with transient, seedy people. How in the world can Calgary be leading the Canadian oil industry if the employees are such questionable characters. How about a reality check. Check out the Calgary oil/gas industry before suggesting that they're a bunch of seedy transients.

Conversely, if the victims have not been in contact with the aforementioned, please post clearance documentation to support it. Until you can assure and qualify your statement, then the field is still open. Fact is....we do not know who AL/KL know or befriended within the realm of AL's businesses.

My career experience is both in the O&G industry and the construction industry. Have you ever met or had the pleasure of conversing with a Syncrude, CNRL or Suncor site employee...the ones that actually get their hands dirty? Have you ever made a trip to Fort Mac and 'hung out' with the employees, or have gotten to know any one of them well enough for them to tell you how it is up there? Drugs, drinking, prostitution, gambling, etc. is the common chorus amongst many of these people. There's nothing much to do up there...so they find stuff to occupy themselves with...a large majority of them. I had a client who was an office manager that went up to Fort Mac to start an escort agency because the money was outstanding there...she was one of the escorts, and she came from one of our downtown office buildings. It's no secret. People, many of them transient (just like the construction trades), coming from different parts of the country, and other countries as well (for workshare programs which is all the rage now), that's the heart of the O&G industry...not the pretty people in the office towers that I assume you're speaking of.
How about "reality check" indeed...the O&G industry is not all about the office towers and company vehicles and the "suits"...the people actually doing the work and getting killed on our jobsites are down-to-earth everyday people whom a whole bunch of them don't even have fixed addresses. There's your reality check!

The construction industry is much the same....and that I speak to from immediate family members that own construction businesses as well as my own involvement with the construction trades.

Nice people, but trust me, they've had to toughen up because of the personality types that they meet up with in their lines of work.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Okay - let's put the drug discussion, as it pertains to the victims, away for now. If something breaks in MSM, then it can be reconsidered.

And, as always, please remember to be respectful of each other. This is not a contest, it is an exploration.

Thanks,

Salem

Oops! Sorry Salem! I didn't see your post until after I posted mine!

 

[otto]

Let's take a minute and have another look at the victims: they are both oil and gas employees, and victims. What exactly do we know about them, and what is reasonable to allege?

 

[Krystine]

The standard put forward by someone, I can't remember who, was that fact, backed up by link, was the only allowable source of discussion. "Common sense" is nothing more than speculation based on probabilities and likelihood.

Thank you for finally admitting that speculation is allowed, and required.

There has definitely been a lot of speculation since the beginning. I remember someone early on, 'making hay' of the fact that AL and KL had both done bankruptcies, and their character was brought into question. I remember the comment..."What kind of people declare bankruptcy"? as if only those of the lowest character would do that.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Regarding the allegation that oil and gas employees are seedy, transient people that are busy making deals and connections, let's consider for a moment that both of Nathan's parents, and his grandfather, are/were oil and gas employees. I am actually offended that anyone would generalize about the oil industry in that way. In reality, oil/gas industry employees are professional, hard working engineers, engineering technologists, accountants, lawyers, and other professionals that conduct themselves according to the expectations of their profession. They should not under any circumstances be portrayed as seedy, transient people that have drug connections.

So was I. Trust me, there is a lot of seedy, transient people in the O&G business, and other businesses as well. People are people, these types show up in every industry, every neighborhood, and every street corner.

I know the Engineers, Lawyers, Accountants, Engineering Technologists, Owners, GM's, VP's, equipment operators, truck drivers, tool pushes, Foremen, etc, etc, etc. There are nurses and doctors on staff as well. There are pilots, and retired and/or ex-LE as well. There's all kinds of people in the O&G industry.

 

[deugirtni]

What if.... the green truck isn't relevant at all in this case? We don't know that it is. And if it is or if it isn't, we don't know that the truck in the photograph is DG's truck, and we don't know, even if it was DG's truck, that it contained evidence of him being a murderer. Just because LE are doing their jobs (hopefully to the extent that they should be) in following up on all leads and possibilities, does not mean that everything they do and find, is relevant to, or evidence for, this case. We have already been told that the arrest was based on a bunch of pieces of circumstantial evidence, none of which in itself would qualify as a 'smoking gun', so let's be sure that the circumstantial evidence is in fact evidence at all. May I be so bold as to ask why some are so certain of this man's guilt, especially when the public has been enlightened so little in the way of evidence?

Let's assume that although police were looking for a specific green truck, they didn't find it, they decided to stop looking for it, and that's that. The owner of the green truck is long gone and no one cares. For fun, police have decided to pin the murders on a loner from Airdrie, and that's that.

Police then decided to take a Mexico vacation, under the ruse of investigating a condo.
Case closed.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Let's take a minute and have another look at the victims: they are both oil and gas employees, and victims. What exactly do we know about them, and what is reasonable to allege?

What do we know about them?
They have 2 sons between them, and another son that belongs to RO.
They have lost a son, NO.
JO has lost her mother KL, her step-father AL
RO has lost his in-laws
RO claimed bankruptcy (although I don't know why we need to know this...is nothing private?)
Both JO and RO work at Cenovus
Neither have returned to work as at August 14, 2014 and are "shattered" according to family friend Cherri Hodgins
They go to church
They were married 9 years ago I believe (there are pics on KL's Facebook page)
They take a beautiful family photo
JO was the last to see KL/AL and NO alive.
JO was the first to arrive at the crime scene the next morning at 10:00 am
JO and RO have Facebook profiles

Other than that...really, what do we know Otto?

 

[otto]

So was I. Trust me, there is a lot of seedy, transient people in the O&G business, and other businesses as well. People are people, these types show up in every industry, every neighborhood, and every street corner.

I know the Engineers, Lawyers, Accountants, Engineering Technologists, Owners, GM's, VP's, equipment operators, truck drivers, tool pushes, Foremen, etc, etc, etc. There are nurses and doctors on staff as well. There are pilots, and retired and/or ex-LE as well. There's all kinds of people in the O&G industry.

The victims, specifically the parents of Nathan, are both oil and gas employees. The grandfather, a victim, was an oil and gas employee.

Could you please provide a link to support the claim that the Calgary oil and gas industry is rife with illegal drug abuse.

 

[deugirtni]

Sorry LoriMcA, I was getting that '2' from newspaper articles, but after looking at the 'two', they appear to both be the 'same'. So I suppose that even if it is stated in MSM, and even if a link can be provided, it doesn't necessarily mean it is fact.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1432691/police-hope-driver-of-green-truck-has-information-about-missing-family/

It's been mentioned in the last couple of pages that there were 'two' pictures of the 'green truck' distributed to the public from LE. I have only seen one...Does anyone have the second or a link to that second picture? Thanks

 

[Tinkerbel1]

What if.... the green truck isn't relevant at all in this case? We don't know that it is. And if it is or if it isn't, we don't know that the truck in the photograph is DG's truck, and we don't know, even if it was DG's truck, that it contained evidence of him being a murderer. Just because LE are doing their jobs (hopefully to the extent that they should be) in following up on all leads and possibilities, does not mean that everything they do and find, is relevant to, or evidence for, this case. We have already been told that the arrest was based on a bunch of pieces of circumstantial evidence, none of which in itself would qualify as a 'smoking gun', so let's be sure that the circumstantial evidence is in fact evidence at all. May I be so bold as to ask why some are so certain of this man's guilt, especially when the public has been enlightened so little in the way of evidence?

Excellent post! I second this question. :yeahthat:

 

[Slebby]

What if.... the green truck isn't relevant at all in this case? We don't know that it is. And if it is or if it isn't, we don't know that the truck in the photograph is DG's truck, and we don't know, even if it was DG's truck, that it contained evidence of him being a murderer. Just because LE are doing their jobs (hopefully to the extent that they should be) in following up on all leads and possibilities, does not mean that everything they do and find, is relevant to, or evidence for, this case. We have already been told that the arrest was based on a bunch of pieces of circumstantial evidence, none of which in itself would qualify as a 'smoking gun', so let's be sure that the circumstantial evidence is in fact evidence at all. May I be so bold as to ask why some are so certain of this man's guilt, especially when the public has been enlightened so little in the way of evidence?

Imho - this is the second thing I'm finding tiresome, is the accusation against posters in general that they are "certain of DG's guilt". Again, I think we all know the meaning of the expression "innocent until proven guilty". Personally, I am prepared to hear all evidence against DG as well as in defence of DG.

We don't know if there was any evidence in the truck. IMO, it's very possible the only evidence provided by the truck is the fact that DG owns the truck and that truck was seen driving in the vicinity of his murdered former business associate's home. That may be one of the bricks in the case against DG. Not what was in the truck, just the truck itself, at the scene of a crime.

IMO, the public has been enlightened so little about the evidence because it is in the best interests of justice and the rights of the accused not to publicize that evidence. This point has been made here again and again.

IMHO

 

[Tinkerbel1]

The victims, specifically the parents of Nathan, are both oil and gas employees. The grandfather, a victim, was an oil and gas employee.

Could you please provide a link to support the claim that the Calgary oil and gas industry is rife with illegal drug abuse.

No. I can't because I'm not going to spend the time looking for it...however, there's information available all over the internet on this subject I'm sure. And as far as I'm concerned your request is irrelevant and somewhat harassing. It is what it is. That's life. You can't twist it to suit the situation or the version you would like to see. Take a trip up to Fort Mac and meet some of the employees. Let them tell you their stories, then you can decide for yourself. I personally, have been there, done that.