Hannah's Journey on 09/13

[KenoshaKid]

I've been puzzled by references to Hannah's last text message, in which she (or somebody) texted that she was lost in the area of 14th and Wertland Sts. This might not seem perplexing to people unfamiliar with Charlottesville, but it's very unlikely she was lost there... it's near her residence and an area that UVa students frequent. It's right around the corner from the, well, Corner.

I work a few blocks away and I agree. No second year is going to get lost at 14th and Wertland. It's almost at the center of the student action. Unless it was meant to indicate she couldn't find where the party was. I agree, it seems like a bogus text.

 

[ChiaPet]

I work a few blocks away and I agree. No second year is going to get lost at 14th and Wertland. It's almost at the center of the student action. Unless it was meant to indicate she couldn't find where the party was. I agree, it seems like a bogus text.

Might be something that a non student like JM might text in order to throw off LE later. Maybe if he was going in the opposite direction and sent that fake text to throw them off while he went the other way.

 

[Calico66]

I know it's been mentioned several times already but...I'm bothered by the fact that we don't have ANY McGrady's info.

I recall that McGrady's was a spot that HG's ski team liked to frequent. So, maybe she was thinking she would meet someone at McGrady's, and that got her headed to the mall. Has this already been confirmed somewhere? My brain is starting to hurt from trying to keep track of the leads.

But I was also thinking...maybe someone was just leading HG on what my grandma would call a Wild Goose Chase? Maybe someone didn't want HG to follow him (or her) and so they texted to her that they were then at Tempo, knowing that HG couldn't get in without an ID? And maybe that's all that it was to put her in the wrong place at the wrong time (in contact with JM)?

Maybe she was distressed because she couldn't meet up with someone, was angry because she walked/ran all the way down to the mall, and then got the message that she wasn't wanted down there?

IDK. I just wish we knew more about the McGrady's situation. The silence is deafening. PEOPLE SAW HER. Why can't the information about HG at McGrady's come to light??!!

 

[CanSleuth]

I work a few blocks away and I agree. No second year is going to get lost at 14th and Wertland. It's almost at the center of the student action. Unless it was meant to indicate she couldn't find where the party was. I agree, it seems like a bogus text.

Maybe she meant to type that she was 'almost' at the area of 14th...but forgot the 'a' and 'm' so the message came out as 'lost'. She might have been trying to let a friend know that she was almost home, or almost at the next party.

I'm curious if HG's text was in reply to a friend's previous message (maybe checking to see if she made it home OK) or if HG initiated the message.

At what time did HG's phone go off/disabled? Seems like it wasn't long after 1:20am which suggests she may have been in the company of JM when the message was sent.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

This isn't what I was thinking "the mall" was like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-U83VJRFIQ

Really interesting, I had thought it was seedier than that somehow. I can understand more why HG was in that part of town now, I still think she MUST have been meeting somebody though. I lived in a student city with a vibrant student centre about a mile out of town. Sometimes we stayed local, sometimes we went out in the city. But never in a million years would I have walked that mile on my own at 1am, without very good reason (and even then I'd have got a cab)

 

[jamicat]

New to Hannah's case and still catching up, but as I read about what took place that night, a few things jump out at me:

Why would HG be waiting outside and LJ goes in alone and orders 2 drinks (and no one saw him bring a drink out to her)? The owner of Tempo and the door ID checker are vehement that she never went inside, and that there happened to be another woman there in a crop top, but it wasn't HG (per a bar witness). Could it be that they have selective memory because HG was underage and they're trying to cover their butts because they let her in and served her?

I've read that she was heavily intoxicated. I watched her in the video taken just before she met LJ and she's walking fast and straight. She didn't appear intoxicated. But witnesses state that she could barely walk just a short time (and presumably 1 drink) later. I think he (or WG?) roofied her. I got roofied in Vegas a year ago, along with a friend, and one minute we were fine (slightly tipsy, but not at all what I'd consider impaired) and the next moment she couldn't walk and I was dragging her and thankfully a guy walking by helped us into a cab. Then, about 15 minutes later, the exact same thing happened to me. I went from being totally fine to flattened out on the ground. Luckily it hit us at different times (I'm heavier than my friend, maybe that's why) so we were able to help each other and, thankfully, were not victimized in any other way.

Regarding WG, that scene from Enough comes to mind. When JLo first meets her husband in the diner, and Noah Wylie acts like a weirdo and her future husband swoops in and "saves" her from him. Turns out it was a con that the two guys cooked up to meet women. Maybe WG and LJ did something similar - WG acted creepy and LJ swooped in, told HG that he saw a dude following her and would pretend to be her boyfriend to get rid of him (put his arm around her). HG is grateful that this stranger stepped in, then they walk a short distance and she feels obligated and grabs a drink with him, guard down. Maybe other times they switch roles. Or maybe HG was unlucky enough to have met two separate creepers that evening. Sigh. Man, do I miss the WS astros!

Anyway, just wanted to add my initial thoughts to the discussion.

We don't know whether Hannah entered Tempo or not. The ID checker said she did not see her in there, did not remember letting her in, nor did she even remember letting JM back in (he had been there earlier, which she remembered, left, and returned). Some side door was mentioned, and JM and she might have gone in through there, and for all we know , she may not have gone into the main part of the restaraunt or bar, but maybe used the restrrom and stayed in that vestibule if the place were so configured. Again, don't know for sure about that.

What seemed to have happened was that JM swooped down on her as friendly as could be--she clearly looked distraught, lost and JM apparently has a super friendly, reassurring demeanor. A, " are you lost, need some help, can give you a ride if you so need." Probably said he worked at UVAMC and was a taxi driver once upon a time and would glad to take her where ever she wanted to go. Just let's go grab a quick dirink, which Hannah probably really wanted, a cold beer after all that walking, and alcohol dehydrates you as well. She might have waited outside where the checker did not see her, or used the restroom outside the place, snuck into Tempo, or whatever. The time line is saying as little as 15 minutes is possible. And where was she to go at about 1:30AM at the mall without a single familiar face? Probably tried calling or texting others to no avail. So now she has a friendly guy who is offering her a ride. So, yes, I can see her waiting.

Whether JM drugged the beer, we can't tell. That she was wallking fairly well, and then is reported to hardly be able to walk or stand without support in that period of time makes no sense to me. Maybe she got sick, threw up? Got a stomache pain that made it difficult to stand straight? Who knows? Whatever happened there, we know that JM did pay for two drinks (Beers?) and that the checker saw them both outside and leaving the area together. And that was the last that anyone reports seeing Hannah which is the important part.

The WG has been vetted by LE, I'm sure. Whatever his interest and motive in approaching or thinking about approaching Hannah, it didn't happen. It's on tape, and WG seems to have been forthright about coming to LE.

All of what happened there is really incidental It's what happened afterwards that is not known. LE seems to be pretty sure that JM's car was involved. Not so much JM since the initial warrent was for the car and not for him. What was found in said car and at JM's apartment, hopefulliy gives some info.

I guess Hannah's phone records, JM's phone which LE does have, don't give enough info for LE to have any idea where JM took Hannah. Wonder when JM was first seen that Saturday. Seems like it might be early enough for LE to think that an 8 mile radius from TEMPO or JM"s apt makes sense since that's been the search parameter.

 

[Pacific2011]

Maybe she meant to type that she was 'almost' at the area of 14th...but forgot the 'a' and 'm' so the message came out as 'lost'. She might have been trying to let a friend know that she was almost home, or almost at the next party.

I'm curious if HG's text was in reply to a friend's previous message (maybe checking to see if she made it home OK) or if HG initiated the message.

At what time did HG's phone go off/disabled? Seems like it wasn't long after 1:20am which suggests she may have been in the company of JM when the message was sent.

I have read earlier on these HG forums about a possible "typo" in HG's message, i.e., she might have meant that she was "almost at 14th & Wertland."

This theory makes sense to me and I hope LE follows through on the possibility of a typo in the transmission because it could mean that HG was still functioning normally at that point.

I have to wonder if possibly HG was made suddenly incapacitated (perhaps accepting some drink or drug w/o knowing what the substance was or the intent of the person who provided the substance)) between the time of that transmission and her later appearing incapacitated on security videos).

Any ideas?

TIA.

 

[jamicat]

Really interesting, I had thought it was seedier than that somehow. I can understand more why HG was in that part of town now, I still think she MUST have been meeting somebody though. I lived in a student city with a vibrant student centre about a mile out of town. Sometimes we stayed local, sometimes we went out in the city. But never in a million years would I have walked that mile on my own at 1am, without very good reason (and even then I'd have got a cab)

LE seems to be pretty sure that she was headed the opposite way and go turned around. They've spoken to the students at the party where she was and she had been in some touch with others.

I was in Charlottesville this past summer, at UVA for a visit. Did not go to the mall. It's not an place where the undergrads tend to gather, other than for a group function. McGrady's was where Hannah tried to enter, and it was the only venue mentioned for tail getting suggestions,and with a caveat that it was far from the campus. My guess is that she was seeking a famiiar face there. It seems that the bars there do not let anyone in under age 21 which makes it limited for most undergrads. Hannah didnn't appear to have a fake id as she could not get into McGrady's and there is some doubt whether or not she got into Tempo.

She was "highly intoxicated" when she left her friends and her destination was apparently the exact opposite direction. IMO, she just kept walking and then when she realized she had not headed where she had planned, got very confused, and had no idea how to get back. Why she wasn't using the GPS function on her iphone, I don't know. I have a feeling her phone might have been low on batteries. I think she was hoping to see a familiar face. She wasn't carrying a purse, and she may not have had id or money on her. It seems to me that she was just party hopping around the Corner, which is where the UVA students tend to hang, and private parties that required no money were her venues. I just don't understand how a young woman like her would have been walking all alone. When I went to places like that in college, and yes, there would be frat and other private parties galore, we tended to be with others as we party hopped. I don't think I ever left one of those places alone even right within the student area, even within campus when it was at night. Just didn't.

I don't think she meant to walk that far. It can happen when you lose your bearings As one with no sense of direction and poor map navigation skills, I've done the same.

 

[jamicat]

Maybe she meant to type that she was 'almost' at the area of 14th...but forgot the 'a' and 'm' so the message came out as 'lost'. She might have been trying to let a friend know that she was almost home, or almost at the next party.

I'm curious if HG's text was in reply to a friend's previous message (maybe checking to see if she made it home OK) or if HG initiated the message.

At what time did HG's phone go off/disabled? Seems like it wasn't long after 1:20am which suggests she may have been in the company of JM when the message was sent.

LE has stated that the time of the text could be off for a number of reasons. The text is puzzling as she clearly was not there. Maybe that's where she wanted to go and JM agreed to drive her there, so she figured she'd be there in an instant. Any number of explanations but sadly I don't think we'll ever know the full story behind that text. Suggestions have been made that JM wrote and sent the text, but that doesn't really make much sense either, as he would have had to have taken that phone from her at 1:20 AM if the time were right and made the text. What possible reason would he do that? That was about when he reentered Tempo to pay his tab and maybe buy those drinks. That much is on record.

That she was looking incapacitated at 1:40 AM and was leaving with JM then, could mean he may have then gotten the phone from her or it may have just lost battery power then. I have no idea how much info iphone records give out. Would LE be able to tell if battery ran out or if the battery were removed or phone turned off? Whatever happened, the phone trail ended right around the time she left the mall area is my understanding.

 

[Skigirl]

LI don't think she meant to walk that far. It can happen when you lose your bearings As one with no sense of direction and poor map navigation skills, I've done the same.

ITA. As someone who is very directionally and navigationally impaired, I am often lost or go out the wrong door of a building and end up on the wrong block, and get really confused, even in places that are pretty familiar. I rely a lot on landmarks and when I lose my bearings, I often walk until suddenly, things snap into focus and I realize where I am. I think she kept thinking she'd see something familiar and know where she was, and she was having moments where things suddenly looked familiar, but then (if she is anything at all like me) would turn a corner and think, "oh... hmmmm... THIS isn't where I thought this street would take me." Probably by the time she got to the mall area, she recognized what it was and where it was and may even have known how to get back from there, but by then she knew she was looking at a very long walk alone late at night across train tracks and through sketchy areas. If she seemed upset, it may have simply been because she realized she was in an unsafe situation. Having someone who seemed harmless approach at that moment may have seemed like a really good solution.

I often do use my iPhone to map where I'm going or if I'm lost, but I don't use it when I think I know where I am (even when I am actually lost). Or sometimes I pull it out, think I understand where to go, and put it away so I'm not walking around with it in my hand, which is conspicuous and makes me feel vulnerable. I also find it confusing in some places (like when I was recently in Chicago and it seemed to be dragging me around the same block repeatedly before I decided to give up and get in a cab). Finally, sometimes if my battery is low, I hesitate to use it because it drains my battery really fast and I worry that I will be left without the ability to make a call if I really need to do so.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

How far was it from the party/McGradys to the Mall/Tempo please?

 

[Skigirl]

Around 1.5 miles.

 

[CanSleuth]

If the timeline is correct, HG crossed paths with JM shortly after 1:00am. JM is on record buying 2 drinks at Tempo at 1:10am. Presumably one of those drinks is for HG, who has either snuck into Tempo, or is waiting outside for JM to return. The mysterious text is sent at 1:20am. Witnesses report seeing HG walking away with JM, using him for support, after last call (about 1:45am). As far as MSM reports this is the last known sighting of HG.

Not only is the content of the text bizarre, but so is the timing. Why would HG indicate that she was lost/or almost in the area of 14th and Wertland, when in fact she was in or around Tempo having a drink with JM?

Some people have suggested that JM sent the text (maybe HG got up to use the bathroom and left her phone on the bar/table, so JM grabbed it and sent the message as a decoy). Maybe JM even disabled and pocketed her phone while she was away from the table. If she was intoxicated enough or drugged she may not have even noticed her phone was missing--didn't Lauren Spierer lose her phone and shoes in a bar the night she disappeared?

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

LE has stated that the time of the text could be off for a number of reasons. The text is puzzling as she clearly was not there. Maybe that's where she wanted to go and JM agreed to drive her there, so she figured she'd be there in an instant. Any number of explanations but sadly I don't think we'll ever know the full story behind that text. Suggestions have been made that JM wrote and sent the text, but that doesn't really make much sense either, as he would have had to have taken that phone from her at 1:20 AM if the time were right and made the text. What possible reason would he do that? That was about when he reentered Tempo to pay his tab and maybe buy those drinks. That much is on record.

That she was looking incapacitated at 1:40 AM and was leaving with JM then, could mean he may have then gotten the phone from her or it may have just lost battery power then. I have no idea how much info iphone records give out. Would LE be able to tell if battery ran out or if the battery were removed or phone turned off? Whatever happened, the phone trail ended right around the time she left the mall area is my understanding.

I had a thought that maybe the phone died because it fell in the toilet. In the video at McGrady's, it looked like she was tucking her phone in the back of her pants. If she did enter Tempo to use the bathroom, this possibility would fit the timeframe of when it died. Another theory I have about the phone is that she dropped it and it fell down a sewer drain, which would have cause reception to be lost.

 

[Skigirl]

Re: the phone losing its signal, I suppose it's possible that she accidentally ruined her phone at the bar. My phone fell out of my coat pocket into the toilet once and it looked like she may have been keeping hers in her waistband. Or, it could have been knocked into the sink when she was washing her hands, or dropped on the floor and subsequently crushed underfoot.

 

[Skigirl]

I had a thought that maybe the phone died because it fell in the toilet. In the video at McGrady's, it looked like she was tucking her phone in the back of her pants. If she did enter Tempo to use the bathroom, this possibility would fit the timeframe of when it died. Another theory I have about the phone is that she dropped it and it fell down a sewer drain, which would have cause reception to be lost.

Great minds

 

[jamicat]

If the timeline is correct, HG crossed paths with JM shortly after 1:00am. JM is on record buying 2 drinks at Tempo at 1:10am. Presumably one of those drinks is for HG, who has either snuck into Tempo, or is waiting outside for JM to return. The mysterious text is sent at 1:20am. Witnesses report seeing HG walking away with JM, using him for support, after last call (about 1:45am). As far as MSM reports this is the last known sighting of HG.

Not only is the content of the text bizarre, but so is the timing. Why would HG indicate that she was lost/or almost in the area of 14th and Wertland, when in fact she was in or around Tempo having a drink with JM?

Some people have suggested that JM sent the text (maybe HG got up to use the bathroom and left her phone on the bar/table, so JM grabbed it and sent the message as a decoy). Maybe JM even disabled and pocketed her phone while she was away from the table. If she was intoxicated enough or drugged she may not have even noticed her phone was missing--didn't Lauren Spierer lose her phone and shoes in a bar the night she disappeared?

I've asked before. With Iphones, can records tell if phone ran out of battery, was turned off or had battery removed?

Lauren Spierer simply left her phone at the bar. She took off her shoes at a sand lot there and left them at the same bar. She was also reportedly under the influence of drink and drugs. Hannah was intoxicated is what LE says.

I think she might have texted that locale as she was expecting JM to drop her off there maybe? It wouldn't be far from where she was by car.

I certainly hope LE has some answers to these questions and is just not sharing. I know they have interviewed UVA students who were in touch with Hannah, so they have some idea as to where she said she was going, that she went the wrong way. LE has said she was in contact with students unt until that last text at 1:20Am. I don't get why JM would text that to anyone. Though some say maybe Hannah texted that earlier, thinking that was where she was, others say no way that she would think she there, regardless of how drunk she might be. That the location was just too familiar for a UVA student, a second year one to think she was there when she as not. That is a mystery.

But more of the mystery is where she ended up afater leaivng the Tempo area. The thought is that she went with JM to where his car was parked, got into the car with him, and then where did they go? My understanding is that LE knew where the car was parked; they have some info and connection of Hannah and the car that allowed them to get a warrent to search and then seize the car, but JM was hands off for LE at that poiint. What could they possibly have known or had? They have stated that the last sighting of Hannah was in fronto of Tempo around 1:45 am. Yet there is something that draws them to JM's car, but not JM. Any ideas, anyone?

 

[hambirg]

Makes sense. Maybe LE wanted to put a different description out there so when they asked JLM to come in for questioning as a possible witness from that night, he wouldn't bolt because he'd be fooled into thinking they wanted a shorter, different suspect. Perhaps when he got to the station that Saturday he realized quickly what was going on and that's why he bolted.

I think LE intentionally put out the bald/short hair description because they didn't really need to identify him at that time. They knew who he was and were likely watching him. They didn't want him to cut his dreads! We don't learn about the man with dreads description until after he takes off on the 20th. . .when LE really does need the public to be on the look out for him.

MOO

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

ITA. As someone who is very directionally and navigationally impaired, I am often lost or go out the wrong door of a building and end up on the wrong block, and get really confused, even in places that are pretty familiar. I rely a lot on landmarks and when I lose my bearings, I often walk until suddenly, things snap into focus and I realize where I am. I think she kept thinking she'd see something familiar and know where she was, and she was having moments where things suddenly looked familiar, but then (if she is anything at all like me) would turn a corner and think, "oh... hmmmm... THIS isn't where I thought this street would take me." Probably by the time she got to the mall area, she recognized what it was and where it was and may even have known how to get back from there, but by then she knew she was looking at a very long walk alone late at night across train tracks and through sketchy areas. If she seemed upset, it may have simply been because she realized she was in an unsafe situation. Having someone who seemed harmless approach at that moment may have seemed like a really good solution.

I often do use my iPhone to map where I'm going or if I'm lost, but I don't use it when I think I know where I am (even when I am actually lost). Or sometimes I pull it out, think I understand where to go, and put it away so I'm not walking around with it in my hand, which is conspicuous and makes me feel vulnerable. I also find it confusing in some places (like when I was recently in Chicago and it seemed to be dragging me around the same block repeatedly before I decided to give up and get in a cab). Finally, sometimes if my battery is low, I hesitate to use it because it drains my battery really fast and I worry that I will be left without the ability to make a call if I really need to do so.

If you look at the street view on Google maps, it looks to me that it would have been impossible for HG not to see that she was going in the wrong direction--there look to be very large landmarks that were missing in the direction she was headed. I can see where being extremely intoxicated you might not be able to comprehend your surroundings, but if she was able to text, I think she was able to see which way she was going. I believe the streets crossing Preston are numbered streets, so that would have given her some guidance that she was headed the wrong way. She veered off of Preston and headed to McGrady's, and then turned around and went towards downtown. She might not have known about McGrady's, but I also find that hard to believe--it is so close to where she lives. It's all such a mystery. I'm pretty sure LE knows there was more to the Mall trip, but that would give JM a story if that info was to be released.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

I also wonder if HG's friends were aware of someone HG was intending to meet up with? They didn't worry about the fact she didn't show up on Saturday and then again on Sunday because they thought she was with that person?