Luka Magotta AKA Eric Newman Trial, Week beginning Oct 27, 2014 - Trial Thread #3

[Rayemonde]

Here's a short video shows the kinds of things a person with schizophrenia might see and hear (I posted it in the schizophrenia thread a few days ago)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LWYwckFrksg

 

[Kamille]

Many thanks to everyone who posted up the tweets today. Great job!! This is the first time I've had a chance to find out what happened today and I caught up in no time. :happydance:

So...I suppose that by putting LM's father on the stand to tell all about his life as a schizophrenic, that is supposed to alleviate LM from having to testify himself? Like father, like son? What about the other son? Seems he is okay? And the daughter? No word of any mental illness in her either. And all three kids experienced the same upbringing it seems. In fact, from the sounds of it, the other two had the worst of it while LM was the "favoured child". Might be where he got his sense of entitlement and diva behaviour? But it still doesn't explain why he planned and executed a murder film for the internet. Seems his father never had that urge.

I think this is a sneaky way to get testimony in that makes the jury think about what LM may have been experiencing without putting him on the stand, which is always very rare and would open him up to a cross examination that would be epic I'm sure. Personally, if I were on the jury I'd disregard it. I'd want to hear from the murderer himself about what he claims he was dealing with. You could pretty much put any person who is diagnosed with schizophrenia on the stand and listen to their experience if you want to know what any one person is dealing with. Still doesn't make it specific to the defendant. Every person's experience would be different. So trying to compare the two just because they're related seems nonsensical to me. I wonder if we're going to hear from the siblings? Or his mother? To be honest, even the doctor's that are going to testify probably don't really know exactly what was going through his mind at the time he did this, or more specifically in the months prior. I think his actions both before and after indicate that he knew it was wrong. And that should be the only thing that matters IMO.

Interesting about the "wife" in Russia. We knew he had a connection to the country so are we going to find out whether he was over there because he was married or are we going to find out those are more lies? You'd think the prosecution would have taken care of that today if it was a lie. Doesn't appear that they did so maybe it's the truth? Is the outrageous lying a symptom of schizophrenia? Not for self protection or not out of paranoia but for attention and admiration?

MOO

 

[Rayemonde]

Dad is not a very reliable witness as his memory seems poor (cognitive deficits are common in schizophrenia) and some of what he said was apparently what LM has told him (eg about step dad being abusive). Hence the judge instructing the jury about hearsay. LM's medical records will give the best insight into his mental state, unless he himself testifies... Which obviously would be ideal as then the jury can see his body language, decide if they think he's telling the truth or lying. IMO liars usually just claim amnesia about the whole crime to avoid difficult questions.

We may hear from LM's mother and siblings - I'm sure his mother would deny what his father said. Hopefully hearing what has been said about her will make her decide to tell her version of the story.

Of course outrageous lying is not a symptom of schizophrenia, but delusions of grandeur can be. I don't think that the defence is trying to say that LM's symptoms are just like his dad's, because his dad seems to suffer from a lot of anxiety and paranoia (even needing a 'support person' whilst in court) whereas LM was cool as a cucumber after the murder and didn't seem paranoid even though he had good reason to be! If they are trying to say that dad's symptoms are like LM's then I think it will backfire on them - as you say, dad has never committed murder and it doesn't sound like he's be capable of a highly planned out , elaborate murder and flight, unlike LM!

 

[Kamille]

Dad is not a very reliable witness as his memory seems poor (cognitive deficits are common in schizophrenia) and some of what he said was apparently what LM has told him (eg about step dad being abusive). Hence the judge instructing the jury about hearsay. LM's medical records will give the best insight into his mental state, unless he himself testifies... Which obviously would be ideal as then the jury can see his body language, decide if they think he's telling the truth or lying. IMO liars usually just claim amnesia about the whole crime to avoid difficult questions.

We may hear from LM's mother and siblings - I'm sure his mother would deny what his father said. Hopefully hearing what has been said about her will make her decide to tell her version of the story.

Of course outrageous lying is not a symptom of schizophrenia, but delusions of grandeur can be. I don't think that the defence is trying to say that LM's symptoms are just like his dad's, because his dad seems to suffer from a lot of anxiety and paranoia (even needing a 'support person' whilst in court) whereas LM was cool as a cucumber after the murder and didn't seem paranoid even though he had good reason to be! If they are trying to say that dad's symptoms are like LM's then I think it will backfire on them - as you say, dad has never committed murder and it doesn't sound like he's be capable of a highly planned out , elaborate murder and flight, unlike LM!

Exactly! So what was the point of all the questions about his symptoms and behaviour with schizophrenia? And the little "blue bag" of medication. And the drama of stopping for lunch so he can take his meds? I can understand the questions about LM and his childhood although, like you said, he seemed to have a lot of memory problems except for telling everything almost word for word that LM had put online about his childhood. Seems a little suspicious to me.

MOO

 

[Rayemonde]

I had to laugh when he was going through all his meds, most of them irrelevant, and he didn't even know what half of them were for; after LM saying online that he just likes taking loads of pills so people feel sorry for him :rolling:

Just had a thought, if LM inherited his dad's bipolar disorder too that could explain his apparent narcissism/ delusions of grandeur - during manic episodes :thinking:

 

[maxfactor]

I had to laugh when he was going through all his meds, most of them irrelevant, and he didn't even know what half of them were for; after LM saying online that he just likes taking loads of pills so people feel sorry for him :rolling:

Just had a thought, if LM inherited his dad's bipolar disorder too that could explain his apparent narcissism/ delusions of grandeur - during manic episodes :chin:

BBM, I think that is where they are going with this, bipolar and schizophrenia can be inherited so they will use the father's illness to make it more believable that LM has it too.

 

[Kamille]

BBM, I think that is where they are going with this, bipolar and schizophrenia can be inherited so they will use the father's illness to make it more believable that LM has it too.

I have no trouble believing he has one or both. I do have trouble believing that either are responsible for what he did however. We've had some pretty horrific murders in this country, obviously from some pretty mentally ill people, and the only ones who seem to get away with this NCR defense are those who are either caught in the act because they did not plan it out in secret and are usually behaving psychotic at the time they're caught, or those who don't try to cover up the crime because they believe it was the right thing to do.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

I had to laugh when he was going through all his meds, most of them irrelevant, and he didn't even know what half of them were for; after LM saying online that he just likes taking loads of pills so people feel sorry for him :rolling:

Just had a thought, if LM inherited his dad's bipolar disorder too that could explain his apparent narcissism/ delusions of grandeur - during manic episodes :thinking:

He created his own delusions of grandeur though don't you think? And it took a lot of work. Years of internet trolling. Wouldn't a schizophrenic have these delusions even if they were a nobody? Maybe the voices just tell them that they're better than anyone else? Or do they tell them to make it happen? He was constantly trying to be a "somebody" that had recognition. I'm thinking they weren't necessarily delusions but more a sought after persona if that makes any sense? More like someone with no self esteem trying to make themselves into a " famous personality". Are these behaviours of a schizophrenic? I have no insight into that disease.

MOO

 

[Rayemonde]

Not as far as I know... It doesn't gel with what I've read about schizophrenia, anyway. If you thought you were married to Karla Homolka you would't feel the need to spread rumours about it everywhere and then deny them, I would have thought. And if you were paranoid, you wouldn't post kitten killing videos in order to get attention, then freak out because PETA were after you because of it. Then make more kitten killing videos.

But here's an significant point - do the jury know anything about LM's internet history? I presume they were chosen because they didn't follow the case in the media, or at least they have been instructed to disregard what they have read. But his internet postings could be very relevant IMO, for example the one about his family - his father's testimony confirmed LM's allegations of abuse in that post, but we know that dad has been visiting son in prison and has a poor memory, so he could just be repeating what LM told him. But the jury aren't aware of that internet post so they might be more likely to believe what dad said.

The kitten videos will come up because RM (the lawyer LM saw when he said PETA were after him) is testifying for the defence. but LM has not been charged in relation to the kitten videos, so won't the jury have to assume that he had nothing to do with them? If there was any evidence that he was involved, the Crown should have brought charges against him for it. If there is no evidence, then jury can't assume that he did it. I doubt that the videos will be able to be shown in court. I really wish that the crown had pursued the kitten videos, not only because I think animal cruelty should be taken very seriously in itself but because it shows a history of making cruel videos to get attention and because it helps to indicate LM's mental state (schizophrenia is not associated with animal cruelty AFAIK, but psychopathy is).

 

[BorgQueen]

Random observation: for the first time, "Luka Magnotta" is trending on facebook. Yes, at 5:30am. And yes, because of the poopstorm his father unleashed with his really quite sad testimony. I haven't bothered checking the trend to see what is going on, as it usually is just people posting links and demanding the death penalty. Which is inappropriate in this case, IMO. Permanent 'institutionalisation' is far more appropriate (because no matter what, i do believe he is dangerous enough to re-offend)
But yeh... we were just commenting about the lack of media attention, trending topics, etc. It just showed up on facebook and I thought it was worthy of taking note.

 

[Rayemonde]

Interesting. The trial made it into the UK press as well, after yesterday :
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ent-trial-troubled-childhood-father-says.html

Interesting that schizophrenia is barely mentioned. I am guessing that the press doesn't want to be accused of stigmatising the condition. It's a real shame that people can't discuss mental illness in an adult manner - a very small percentage of people with schizophrenia commit awful violence because their condition means that they are unable at the time to understand that what they are doing is wrong. The jury's job is to decide whether LM is one of those people or not. That's all. There is no need for people to argue that all schizophrenics are dangerous, or conversely that no schizophrenic ever commits violence because of their condition.

I'm very glad that the death penalty is not an option here. I think that would make the jury a lot less likely to find LM guilty.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Here are my two cents on why the father was called to testify - he's being used as the poster boy for paranoid schizophrenia. AND - the dad never murdered anyone. Sure he has his many problems but he never committed murder.

:thinking:

 

[Kamille]

Here are my two cents on why the father was called to testify - he's being used as the poster boy for paranoid schizophrenia. AND - the dad never murdered anyone. Sure he has his many problems but he never committed murder.

:thinking:

Except he was called by the defense. But hopefully the fact that his behavior in general while dealing with the disease seems to be the polar opposite from his son (unable to fly, travel alone, poor memory, self medicated with lots of alcohol before seeking help, unable to concentrate on internet activities etc.) is not lost on the jury. I don't think the jury should be settling for a "poster boy" when the real deal is sitting right there in the room with them. While they can't base anything regarding guilt on his refusal to testify, they can disregard the lame attempt at showing them how he may have become a schizophrenic by ignoring his father's sketchy testimony.

MOO

 

[Morbida]

Here are my two cents on why the father was called to testify - he's being used as the poster boy for paranoid schizophrenia. AND - the dad never murdered anyone. Sure he has his many problems but he never committed murder.

:thinking:

That seems like it would contradict the defense's plea of NCR, since LM has already admitted to the killing.

(Does that make sense? I just woke up. :scared

 

[Kamille]

Interesting. The trial made it into the UK press as well, after yesterday :
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ent-trial-troubled-childhood-father-says.html

Interesting that schizophrenia is barely mentioned. I am guessing that the press doesn't want to be accused of stigmatising the condition. It's a real shame that people can't discuss mental illness in an adult manner - a very small percentage of people with schizophrenia commit awful violence because their condition means that they are unable at the time to understand that what they are doing is wrong. The jury's job is to decide whether LM is one of those people or not. That's all. There is no need for people to argue that all schizophrenics are dangerous, or conversely that no schizophrenic ever commits violence because of their condition.

I'm very glad that the death penalty is not an option here. I think that would make the jury a lot less likely to find LM guilty.

Totally agree with you Rayemonde. No two people are alike, no matter what their mental illness may be IMO. Can't compare one to another, especially, as I've said, when the one they are supposed to be judging is sitting right there and has the right to testify on his own behalf.

I am not opposed to the death penalty, per se, and I know I could sentence the right people to it if it were in play, however I am glad that we do not have it in this country for exactly the reason you stated. I do believe we have a much higher conviction rate and way less shenanigans in our trials because it's not an option. Just looking at that Jodi Arias trial makes me shudder to think that could happen up here with so much on the line if we had the death penalty. Not to mention the automatic, paid for, appeals. I am happy with the new sentencing laws that allow for consecutive sentences however. I wish we had them sooner although I think our most heinous murderers are not getting parole in their lifetime anyway.

MOO

 

[Rayemonde]

The doctor's letter from 2005 said said LM suffered from auditory hallucinations, paranoia, anxiety and fear of the unknown. And what I've read in the press about him when he was younger seems to agree with that - scared to go out, nervous. But this doesn't seem consistent with his behaviour during the murder , when he looked perfectly calm and behaved normally whilst on the run, going out to bars etc and not even noticing all those student policemen standing behind him in the internet cafe!

So unless the defence has medial records showing that LM's symptoms have changed since his younger days, his calm, confident behaviour may show that his illness had nothing to do with the murder. It may even have been a relapse in his schizophrenic symptoms that allowed him to carry out the crime - ie he was no longer paranoid and hearing voices, so that's why he was he was cooly able to plan out and carry out a gruesome murder then go on the run without feeling scared or paranoid.

BTW, dad not only has never murdered anyone, he had no past history of violence either, despite suffering from "homicidal ideation" as a result.of his schizophrenia. And despite being an alcoholic in the past - alcohol use is far more predictive of violence than schizophrenia is. From what I've read, people with schizophrenia who ARE violent usually have an alcohol or drug problem too.

 

[Dane]

LOL! Yet another person who pointed out his weight gain. This must be devastating for the self-proclaimed "devastatingly good looking" Magnotta.
Also, "weird" cheekbones.:laugh:

I wonder if anybody is going to point out his caterpillar eyebrows? That stupid striped tank top?


The descriptions of this guy so far have been kind of amusing. I probably shouldn't laugh, but I can't help it.

In Denmark we call those eyebrows "black slug eyebrows". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_slug . Haven't been able to shake that impression since I first saw LM's mascara-laden eyebrows. I am guessing LM never ever quite understood the phrase "Less is more" lol.

MOO of course! ;-)

 

[Dane]

I agree that it just didn't happen. That said, I do think he met some people that didn't come forward. Likely embarrassed folk who paid for "services".

Looking back at some of the older articles, it is kind of funny how much was made up and/or wrong, and how many attention-seekers there were who ran as fast as they could to the first camera they saw to talk about how they knew Luka and how messed up he was, or other odd claims.

Well, both in regards to defecating on the floor (allegedly) and much of the other "stuff mentioned" like Golden Showers etc... they would all have been lucrative business opportunities for LM. Scatophilia, and Urophilia, are fetishes known in all sexual orientations. Since they are so controversial and generally looked down upon, they are widely practised anonymously, in closed forums, etc. IMHO, LM will have quickly seen this as a very lucrative side business to being a simple escort. It simply pays more for such a session. Way more. So if he - and I suspect he had no issues doing it - got involved with that side of the sex market, he will easily have been able to make the money for his "European Trip" following the murder. Hence the different accounts, credit cards... etc. He just did his thing, collected the money and lived cheaply while planning his world premiere as an infamous killer.

IMHO... not a shred of the evidence points to him being NCR. Nothing at all. He is meticulous, well prepared, even half years ahead of things. He cultivated contacts in Europe for his escape and further upkeep/income. He planned everything in detail, deliberately and down to details.
Just not well enough. His delusion of grandeur - however big or small - superseded him and brought him to his downfall. I am not really impressed with LE on this one... there are wide gaps in this whole manhunt that shouldn't have been covered in the first place. Thankfully alert citizens were able to alert LE regardless.

In any case... IMHO only... I cannot wait to see LM behind bars. Not with a NCR verdict. But as fully responsible. IMO he did this to promote himself. He wanted the fame. He is at this very moment relishing it, regardless of how crushed and humbled he makes his appearance in court. I am no expert at all... but I think myself a good judge of character. And this one...? Oh Lord. A manipulator, par excellence.

He must remain behind bars for the rest of his life.
Preferably without Internet access as well!

MOO, of course.

 

[Little Jedi]

hwow:

Well I'm not sure what to make of the whole 'Daddy bombshell'

~ Personally it just made me think of Peter Sutcliffe ( Yorkshire Ripper ) & his 'schizophrenia'
Mainly he knew how to act/behave due to his wife having it ~

Soooo ......

A Travel Companion

" Magnotta meets a 70-year-old man in Toronto who ends up becoming his travel companion. Together, they visit Russia, Italy and France.

Henry, a fake name used to protect his identity, told the fifth estate they met at the Pickle Barrel restaurant located near Toronto's Yonge and Eglinton intersection. "He walked as if he was on a stage or as if he was on a ramp for modeling clothes," said Henry. "

http://murderpedia.org/male.M/m/magnotta-luka.htm

 

[Rayemonde]

I really don't think LM is faking having schizophrenia, because of his long history of having it and his past hospitalisations due to it. The doctor's letter from 2004 state s that he was on two different anti psychotics and a medication to counteract their side-effects - so he was clearly taking them, and having major side-effects. The only way I can see him malingering for all those years is if he has Munchausen's and liked the attention, but I don't think that is the case because he was so secretive about his diagnosis, where I would expect someone with Münchhausens to be shouting it from the rooftops in an attempt to get extra sympathy and attention.

Yes he clearly premeditated the murder and planned it all in detail in advance, but some people with schizophrenia can appear normal and carry out complex plans whilst still being extremely ill. Just because he wasn't gibbering and wearing his underpants on his head doesn't mean he was thinking normally and knew that what he was doing was wrong. He clearly seems to have known that it was ILLEGAL but people have been found NCR for doing something they knew was illegal did not know was immoral (eg, killing someone because god told them they were the devil).

JMO