IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #33

[Ixchel13]

What kind of anonymous tip? I would imagine they're afraid of going to jail.

yes I agree they are. But we're talking about feeling sorry for them. As far as it could be anyone's children, I can see that. and it seems like the Spierers understood that and just wanted Lauren. As time went on, they expressed their frustration and tried to explain how they felt, and it came out very clear, the agony and hurt.

I've read about hardened street junkies who have called the police when their friend ods. It's been in our paper.

I've also read about people driving ods to a hospital parking lot, or even any nearby parking lot, so that they would be found. This is more common. since they didn't cause the person's death,
they don't want to get into trouble, because they could be investigated for murder if the person disappears after they were the last person with them. They want the body to be found!

If they hid their friends body so well she hasn't been found yet, they should be smart enough
to figure out an anonymous tip line.

 

[Ros]

yes I agree they are. But we're talking about feeling sorry for them. As far as it could be anyone's children, I can see that. and it seems like the Spierers understood that and just wanted Lauren. As time went on, they expressed their frustration and tried to explain how they felt, and it came out very clear, the agony and hurt.

I've read about hardened street junkies who have called the police when their friend ods. It's been in our paper.

I've also read about people driving ods to a hospital parking lot, or even any nearby parking lot, so that they would be found. This is more common. since they didn't cause the person's death,
they don't want to get into trouble, because they could be investigated for murder if the person disappears after they were the last person with them. They want the body to be found!

If they hid their friends body so well she hasn't been found yet, they should be smart enough
to figure out an anonymous tip line.

I think we discussed these ideas on this board before. The general conclusion is that there must be something about the condition of her body (DNA, injuries that could still be seen on autopsy, etc.) that could be incriminating to the person(s) responsible for her disappearance. I am not an expert, but I would not think that it would still be possible to determine that she died due to an overdose. It is difficult to measure the presence of toxic substances in bone and nearly impossible to determine timing. See http://www.forensicsciencesimplified.org/tox/how.html If she frequently used drugs (and according to JW's parents, that was the case), then even if drugs were found in her bones, one could not easily determine that the drugs caused her death.

 

[AbbeyR]

I think the most likely scenario is that she died of an overdose (or some combination of factors) that night and the men hid her body. When you look at the combination of drugs she was reported to have ingested that night, the alcohol on top of that, the heart condition, the substantial head injuries she sustained, and the degree to which she was intoxicated, I think it's extremely unlikely that she had sobered up enough to walk out of that apartment when they reported she did. She couldn't even walk and had to be carried when she entered. An hour, hour and a half later she can walk on her own? I'm just not seeing it.

The drugs on their own were dangerous, the heart condition really puts it into the danger zone, but the head injuries really worry me. You really don't want to go without having those treated.

Now, personally, if that's the case, I feel sorry for these guys. The laws regarding drugs aren't what they should be and don't allow for someone to call 911 without getting into serious trouble yourself and they got scared. But that's just me.

I wonder how many people actually end up charged with anything in these cases? And what percentage of those people are actually convicted and have any consequences? It does happen, but my guess is that in practice, it doesn't happen very often in a situation like the one you describe.

If we were actually talking about a case in which the POI had attempted to help Lauren and gotten in serious trouble for it, I might understand having some sympathy for them as well. But to feel sorry for them in the case that they didn't call for help and hid her? That's terrible. I feel sorry for Lauren. She deserved to have someone look out for her, call for help, or make sure she got to a safe place. I feel sorry for Lauren's friends and family, who deserve to have answers and to say goodbye.

 

[AbbeyR]

Are there still posts here in one of these threads by someone portraying themselves to be JR? I think it was from around the time the lawsuit was first being reported and the same time we had comments from JWs family and CR saying he didn't say he doesn't remember anything. If I recall all of those things happened within the same few days.

They were deleted. I have a copy, if you want to read the posts, but I don't believe it was JR.

 

[AbbeyR]

According to the article I consulted when I was making the map, the Bar Tender made mention of the Clock she could see there on the corner of 10th & College.

My big questions about the Bar Tender (seeing as the BPD disputes her testimony) is this. "What time did she get off work? Where did she work and how far from 10th and College was it? From that information and the method she used to get there (walking or driving) we can know for certain - what time she was at that location to see what she claims she saw.

I don't believe the bar manager ever actually said anything about the clock. That was suggested by someone here, based on her presumed location. According to the private investigators, she was coming from "visiting a boy" not from work. They outline the timeline in the Lohud video and article, which seems in line with LE's statement that it was an hour earlier than reported by Gatto.

 

[Chuz Life]

I don't believe the bar manager ever actually said anything about the clock. That was suggested by someone here, based on her presumed location. According to the private investigators, she was coming from "visiting a boy" not from work. They outline the timeline in the Lohud video and article, which seems in line with LE's statement that it was an hour earlier than reported by Gatto.

According to what I am finding on the Gatto archives, the Bar Manager was "adamant" about the time (3:38 am) and the location (10th & College.) It does make sense that because the clock is there at that location - that she would have been so sure about BOTH the time and the location.

 

[akh]

According to what I am finding on the Gatto archives, the Bar Manager was "adamant" about the time (3:38 am) and the location (10th & College.) It does make sense that because the clock is there at that location - that she would have been so sure about BOTH the time and the location.

And if she was looking at a clock, and if that clock hadn't been adjusted for DST, then it would've been 4:38AM. Of course.... if if if....
But since LE wants to discredit the timing as reported then all bets are off.

 

[AbbeyR]

According to what I am finding on the Gatto archives, the Bar Manager was "adamant" about the time (3:38 am) and the location (10th & College.) It does make sense that because the clock is there at that location - that she would have been so sure about BOTH the time and the location.

It does make sense about the clock, but I don't see any reason not to believe LE, since they said they have video evidence.

One of the problems with Gatto is that he only talked to the witness once early on, and then said she wouldn't speak to him again. If she was mistaken about where she was coming from or the time, it seems this would be pretty easy to figure out. She could have double checked with her work records, or with the person she was visiting. Gatto wouldn't know this. The private investigators who interviewed her later would, and this would be easily confirmed by the investigators and LE who had video evidence to verify the time.

Another possibility is that the discrepancies came from Gatto. Gatto made a lot of mistakes - possibly because he was writing very early on, and perhaps because he is neither an investigator nor an investigative journalist. He was also writing a blog, so had no requirement to follow any practices of verification or any other ethical guidelines. For example, he offered anonymity to anyone who would talk to him and did not fact check or look for corresponding sources - and we was publicly accused by Lauren's friends of writing things that were not accurate. The LoHud journalists would have a higher standard of reporting. I believe it's possible the witness got some things wrong and changed her story, but it's also possible that Gatto was sloppy, trying to support his own theory (of which he clearly had), or who knows, he may have even agreed to alter certain components of the bar manager's story (For example, perhaps she didn't want people to know she was visiting a boy that night and didn't think that detail mattered in the grand scheme of things). I also don't put much weight onto Gatto's claim that the bar manager was adamant about the time. He also stressed that the witness at the bar who said Lauren was alone was totally positive that Lauren was not with Corey, and she was. He also said another anonymous source was positive that Corey had run out of the building before Lauren, and video evidence showed this wasn't true. This leads me to think that either the witnesses or Gatto himself felt the need to stress certainty, though witnesses often make mistakes.

We've talked about this a lot and I'm sure you guys are sick of me saying the same thing over and over again. Me too Who knows, maybe the original report from Gatto has something more to it. But in order to believe that, you have to assume that there is not video evidence of the witness that could show what time it was, even though the location is filled with video cameras and Lauren and Corey were in the same area caught on video, and/or that there is some kind of conspiracy that the private investigators, LE and the media are in on.. I just don't find either to be likely.

 

[AbbeyR]

I think we discussed these ideas on this board before. The general conclusion is that there must be something about the condition of her body (DNA, injuries that could still be seen on autopsy, etc.) that could be incriminating to the person(s) responsible for her disappearance.

Or her location. The person(s) responsible for hiding her could be worried that they could be tied to that place or that they (or their vehicle) were spotted in the area.

 

[Chuz Life]

And if she was looking at a clock, and if that clock hadn't been adjusted for DST, then it would've been 4:38AM. Of course.... if if if....
But since LE wants to discredit the timing as reported then all bets are off.

It would very strange is a Bar Manager who knew (or should have known) what time she just got off work would give such an account and get the time THAT wrong. I do suppose it's possible. However, I can't imagine getting off work at 4:00 am DST for example and then claiming to witness something that far from work at a time that was before you just got off work.

As a Bar Manager, she knew what time she got off work and (seems to me) she would have caught that the clock didn't account for DST. Seeing that she claimed she was completely sober and all.

This is why I said earlier that I would like to know what time the Bar Manager actually got off work, how far away that was, etc.

 

[Chuz Life]

According to what I am finding on the Gatto archives, the Bar Manager was "adamant" about the time (3:38 am) and the location (10th & College.) It does make sense that because the clock is there at that location - that she would have been so sure about BOTH the time and the location.

It does make sense about the clock, but I don't see any reason not to believe LE, since they said they have video evidence.

LE didn't claim that they have video evidence that conflicts with the Bar Manager's account though. They (LE) only claims that they don't have the video to support her recollection. This gets back to the questions of "what time did she actually get of work, what stops did she make, etc." It is possible that she witnessed something that was missed by the cameras and it's also possible that she just has the time wrong. MORE investigation is warranted.

One of the problems with Gatto is that he only talked to the witness once early on, and then said she wouldn't speak to him again. If she was mistaken about where she was coming from or the time, it seems this would be pretty easy to figure out. She could have double checked with her work records, or with the person she was visiting. Gatto wouldn't know this. The private investigators who interviewed her later would, and this would be easily confirmed by the investigators and LE who had video evidence to verify the time.

Do you have a link to anything that answers the questions of what time she was actually there at that corner? What time she got off work, etc? Was she caught on tape herself?

Another possibility is that the discrepancies came from Gatto. Gatto made a lot of mistakes - possibly because he was writing very early on, and perhaps because he is neither an investigator nor an investigative journalist. He was also writing a blog, so had no requirement to follow any practices of verification or any other ethical guidelines. For example, he offered anonymity to anyone who would talk to him and did not fact check or look for corresponding sources - and we was publicly accused by Lauren's friends of writing things that were not accurate. The LoHud journalists would have a higher standard of reporting. I believe it's possible the witness got some things wrong and changed her story, but it's also possible that Gatto was sloppy, trying to support his own theory (of which he clearly had), or who knows, he may have even agreed to alter certain components of the bar manager's story (For example, perhaps she didn't want people to know she was visiting a boy that night and didn't think that detail mattered in the grand scheme of things). I also don't put much weight onto Gatto's claim that the bar manager was adamant about the time. He also stressed that the witness at the bar who said Lauren was alone was totally positive that Lauren was not with Corey, and she was. He also said another anonymous source was positive that Corey had run out of the building before Lauren, and video evidence showed this wasn't true. This leads me to think that either the witnesses or Gatto himself felt the need to stress certainty, though witnesses often make mistakes.

Many points taken. Thank you.

We've talked about this a lot and I'm sure you guys are sick of me saying the same thing over and over again. Me too Who knows, maybe the original report from Gatto has something more to it. But in order to believe that, you have to assume that there is not video evidence of the witness that could show what time it was, even though the location is filled with video cameras and Lauren and Corey were in the same area caught on video, and/or that there is some kind of conspiracy that the private investigators, LE and the media are in on.. I just don't find either to be likely.

My only interest in the Bar Manager's account is to pinpoint the location and time on my map to add to the bigger picture. I'm sorry if I have re-opened any old angles that have already been put to rest and I'm even more sorry if that leads to any confusion. I have indicated the known locations of the cameras on my map and it seems there was NOT a camera pointed at the steps of the Apartments at the corner of 10th and College. Is Btown still here? Maybe he would know for certain if one was located there.

 

[AbbeyR]

LE didn't claim that they have video evidence that conflicts with the Bar Manager's account though. They (LE) only claims that they don't have the video to support her recollection. This gets back to the questions of "what time did she actually get of work, what stops did she make, etc." It is possible that she witnessed something that was missed by the cameras and it's also possible that she just has the time wrong. MORE investigation is warranted.

Do you have a link to anything that answers the questions of what time she was actually there at that corner? What time she got off work, etc? Was she caught on tape herself?

Well, when asked about the sighting at 3:38, LE said there was no video evidence of this sighting at that time. However, they also said this was about an hour later than she does appear on video with a man:

Qualters addressed a blogger’s report of a “mysterious man” in the area of 10th and College at about 3:38 a.m. June 3. He said investigators have reviewed video evidence that does not support that either Spierer or anyone unknown to police was in that area at that time.

“What I’m here to tell you is that we have reviewed the video, not only the timeline that we have been using, ... and where Lauren does in fact appear ... she does appear in that video with someone that is already known to investigators. We have also reviewed it during the time period where it has been reported, essentially an hour later (at 3:38 a.m.), and we do not find any evidence that supports that information,” Qualters said.

(snipping from an earlier post that quoted the press release)

My understanding then, is that this would put the Lauren and the 'man known to LE' on video in that area at somewhere around 2:38.

According to the LoHud timeline, the encounter with the witness happens somewhere between 2:42 am and 3 am, so this seems to fit both with the revised timeline from LE and this statement. They interviewed the same witness, describe the same encounter described by the witness in Gatto's account (Lauren falling and hitting her head, and being carried over the man's shoulder), and identified the man as Corey Rossman. http://archive.lohud.com/flash/spierer/ (See timeline)

We don't know if the bar manager's encounter with Corey was caught on video or told to the investigators. The LoHud piece seems to (almost deliberately?) edit this out of the narrative. However, since both Lauren and Corey were captured on video multiple times on their walk, and the buildings at 10th and college have video surveillance, I think that it is pretty likely that even if the encounter itself wasn't captured, the witness would have been seen on video coming or going as well, which would have allowed them to verify the timeline.

My only interest in the Bar Manager's account is to pinpoint the location and time on my map to add to the bigger picture. I'm sorry if I have re-opened any old angles that have already been put to rest and I'm even more sorry if that leads to any confusion. I have indicated the known locations of the cameras on my map and it seems there was NOT a camera pointed at the steps of the Apartments at the corner of 10th and College. Is Btown still here? Maybe he would know for certain if one was located there.

Oh no, don't be sorry! Nothing has been put to rest, and as you said, these little snippets all call for MORE investigation. Your questions about the timeline are important - as we have seen with the early reporting in this case, there was (and is) conflicting information and gaps. I was just apologizing because I have posted the same thing about Gatto's 'mystery man' a gazillion times - but not everyone agrees and that's fine! It's an important part of the story and if nothing else, it gives us something to talk about. You never know when some new piece of information or rethinking something old could lead somewhere

 

[Mahouston69]

I don't believe the bar manager ever actually said anything about the clock. That was suggested by someone here, based on her presumed location. According to the private investigators, she was coming from "visiting a boy" not from work. They outline the timeline in the Lohud video and article, which seems in line with LE's statement that it was an hour earlier than reported by Gatto.

This sparks a question... Did she purposely give a wrong time for "seeing her" and mystery man? If yes, why? Did she actually see Lauren or at that time or is it part of "the story" and did she play a part or is it an attempt to alibi for the "boy she was seeing"?

 

[CoolJ]

I would think that if the bar manager/bartender witness distinctly remembered a time as precise as 3:38am that she would likely be basing it off of her cell phone activity. I doubt she looked up at the clock to see the precise time at that moment she saw LS and MM/CR unless that was her stated explanation.

 

[Kadence]

This sparks a question... Did she purposely give a wrong time for "seeing her" and mystery man? If yes, why? Did she actually see Lauren or at that time or is it part of "the story" and did she play a part or is it an attempt to alibi for the "boy she was seeing"?

Hmm, this is indeed an interesting angle as I can't believe, in these days of cell phones, that someone could "get a time wrong" as to when they observed something so someone isn't telling the truth - who is it, her or LE?

Have some some things going on in my life - missed y'all!

 

[Mahouston69]

And if cell phone activity was used..it will update or show the correct time automatically according to time zones. Again, why lie unless it was to divert attention or show Lauren in a certain location at a precise time. I'd love to know if all video available was used to investigate her eye witness statement between 2:38 and 4:38. Remind me if LE disagreed with her statement on just time, identity of who she saw or both? Did they discount her statements entirely?

 

[akh]

It would very strange is a Bar Manager who knew (or should have known) what time she just got off work would give such an account and get the time THAT wrong. I do suppose it's possible. However, I can't imagine getting off work at 4:00 am DST for example and then claiming to witness something that far from work at a time that was before you just got off work.

As a Bar Manager, she knew what time she got off work and (seems to me) she would have caught that the clock didn't account for DST. Seeing that she claimed she was completely sober and all.

This is why I said earlier that I would like to know what time the Bar Manager actually got off work, how far away that was, etc.

I believe either rumors, or possibly later reports, said the bar manager didn't directly get off work and then allegedly witness LS. The bar manager visited someone in between. So losing track of time is a little more possible in that scenario.

 

[akh]

Here's a question I bet nobody can answer:
Did the bar manager get shown the video LE has (assuming they really have any of the location where the bar manager was) to confirm it shows what/who she says she saw?

This would certainly dispel or add credence to the speculation that there is a video that confirms the bar manager's account of seeing LS, but that she was wrong about the time and the person she was with was CR.

 

[Ixchel13]

This sparks a question... Did she purposely give a wrong time for "seeing her" and mystery man? If yes, why? Did she actually see Lauren or at that time or is it part of "the story" and did she play a part or is it an attempt to alibi for the "boy she was seeing"?

all valid questions that I wonder about, too. And I think Chuz asked if she might have been caught on tape. It is said that she came forward a few days later after someone told her Lauren was missing. IMO, this person witnessed the cause of death and saw
at least one of the persons who hid Lauren. It makes sense that Lauren may have succeeded in getting someone to come out of 10th and C as she was seen on tape trying to get in, or at least seen trying to buzz someone. <modsnip> And it makes sense that Lauren smacked her head, as she was already seen falling down on tape.
It doesn't make sense that she smacked her head on the way up to 10th and C. We have to remember that this is not on video. Her haphazard route up the alley with CR, and her falling face forward w/o hand support is on tape, yet the PIs describe her at this time as seeming "very much alive and well". Bessie has said that this means
she was probably moving, waving arms and legs, etc.
But the witness says she saw Lauren smack her head, and become irresponsive. This sounds like unconcious. She describes her as being picked up and slung over a shoulder. This does not sound like the "piggy back" style that the PIs describe seeing
her being carried by CR.
I agree that this witness may be in on the 5N story and could be fudging on both the time and the description of MM. The most important part of what she saw is Lauren hitting her head very hard. Also, she may be fudging about how that happened.
But she did see something important, and LE is hedging about it, could be they have heard from other people conflicting stories about who was involved during this
occurence, and what time it was, and it has nothing to do with the first time Lauren was trying to get in 10th and C with CR. JMO MOO

p.s. and also, MaH, you could be spot on about alibiing the "boy". Whether this guy lived at 10th and C or not, her alibi places him in an apt for a certain time period,
and maybe even others that were "there" too.
with her.

 

[AbbeyR]

Her haphazard route up the alley with CR, and her falling face forward w/o hand support is on tape, yet the PIs describe her at this time as seeming "very much alive and well". Bessie has said that this means
she was probably moving, waving arms and legs, etc. But the witness says she saw Lauren smack her head, and become irresponsive. This sounds like unconcious. She describes her as being picked up and slung over a shoulder. This does not sound like the "piggy back" style that the PIs describe seeing
her being carried by CR.

This is Gatto's version:

TonyGatto.com has spoken to the witness who says she saw an extremely inebriated Lauren Spierer with the man at 3:38 a.m on Friday, June 3 at the corner of 10th St. and College Ave. in downtown Bloomington. At one point the man slung Lauren over his shoulder...

According to the witness, who works as a manager at a local bar, Lauren Speirer was incoherent, her eyes nearly closed and at one point she fell and banged her head...

&#8220;She was completely out of it... The guy was like, can I take you home, and she couldn&#8217;t even answer.&#8221;

This is what the PI's report

MC: And that's where we have a female witness who was leaving, uh, visiting a boy. She's not a college student, she's a little bit older. And she observed the young girl, which we now know to be Lauren, to tip over, while she was sitting on the top step, and hit her head on the concrete. And the boy was sitting a step or two below her.

BD:: And it was loud enough to for her to hear--

MC: You could hear the thud

BD: The thud of her head, yeah.

SC: So Lauren and Corey headed up an alleyway from there and Lauren is seen falling face first to the ground, hitting her head. She didn't even put up her hands to block herself. Corey helped her to her feet and then just a few steps later she crumbled again to the ground. And again, Corey helps her up and they head up the street. So Lauren and Corey headed up an alleyway from there and head into an apartment building at Tenth and College and knock on the door of four girls who were partying with them earlier in the night, but no one's home.

MC: A minute later, the door opening and them going back down and him helping her with that, kinda slung across his back.

SC: So, going down the stairs. Going down, he slings her&#8212;her puts her...?

MC: He has her arms like this in front of him and he's bent over like this and she's kinda dangling off his back [demonstrates]

SC: But she's... she's moving though. She's not unconscious.

MC: Oh no, she's &#8211; she was alive and well. I mean, I don't know how well, but...she was alive.
[He goes on to describe the journey from Smallwood to 5 N as a mix of Lauren staggering, Corey pulling and carrying her]

The witness describes Lauren as being slung over the man's shoulders. In the video, the PIs demonstrate this - this is the one part of the account that seems entirely consistent to me.