ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #3

[white rabbit]

:coffeeup:

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

OT but yes, it was. It's in the Iron Mountain range of NE Minnesota. Beautiful country.

We didn't get any wolves to answer our howls, but we did scare some high school kids that were out partying in the woods nearby. LOL

Sounds absolutely beautiful and a great adventure!

Partying high schoolers equals "wild life"!
arty:

 

[flourish]

I have read every article I can find on this story, but I'm still not clear on a few things. I'm hoping someone here knows the answers. (Quoting articles given on page 1 of the thread.)

1. Where exactly was Deorr and what was he doing when he was last seen by his parents, ggf and ggf's friend? Specifically, was he sitting down, lying down with his blanket, in the tent, on the ground, playing with a toy, eating a snack, etc?

2. I read in a few articles that the parents thought Deorr was staying with his ggf and the ggf thought he was with the parents. In an interview with ggf's daughter (Deorr's grandmother), she says “My dad was standing there watching him and he turned his head and then (Deorr) was gone.” http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/grandma-of-missing-2-year-old-he-just-vanished/
The parents said in their interview "He`s a -- he`s a goer and a mover, but he`s not -- he does not go away from his parents. He does not..." "Yes, he`s very attached to us." If ggf wasn't watching him, it seems very plausible that little Deorr toddled off after his parents and something happened in the space between adults. (http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1507/15/ng.01.html) Did the parents tell ggf that they were taking a walk and that he was in charge of the baby? Or was he sleeping and they thought they would be back before he woke up?

3. The father say Deorr is small for his age and that he is almost three. I think Deorr was born in January, so he's closer to 2 1/2, but I'm still wondering if it would be possible that if the baby didn't see his parents, could he have returned to the truck? Could he have crawled into the bed of the truck unnoticed (possibly fell asleep) and when his dad took off down to find a better signal, Deorr fell out?

4. In the 911 call, when the operator asks the mom "What is he wearing", Mitchell answers "He was wearing cowboy boots, a blue pair of pajama pants and a camo jacket." Is it common in Idaho to answer that someone was wearing xyz rather than is wearing xyz if he's been missing for an hour? I'm trying to understand if she is using a local colloquialism or if she has already lost hope that he will ever be found. http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/0...-released-my-2-year-old-son-we-cant-find-him/

TIA!

P.S. I don't believe this is sleuthing the family members, as I am sticking to information already approved as source material. Just trying to establish a more specific timeline.

Not a local quirk IME.
I'm wondering if she mirrored the wording of the question?

Eta: or what La louve said.

 

[Roselvr]

To answer the earlier question, you know I don't like to speculate, especially being that we rarely have the whole story. That being said, I would go back to ground zero and start over. I don't know what directions they went in besides the water, but I would go out in all directions. Sometimes the obvious is not actually the right area. With what we know that's about all you can do. I would also leave the ATVs out. They are great for clearing a road (as long as you aren't worried about destroying tracks or other evidence) and for getting a perimeter set up and getting searchers out a distance quickly. For the purpose of searching for what would sadly now be a deceased small child if he is out there they are not top on my list. Not top when looking for a live child either, can't hear small muffled sounds and it is hard to search thoroughly on them.

What SAR would you recommend? I'd love to give them a bloodhound team. I'm in a position to pass info on to them.

 

[1&2&3]

Well, I see that no news appeared over night that gives us any light into the fourth adult at the campsite. Hmmmm. Why is this id so quite?

The parents are off limits to discuss.

GGF is not to be discussed.

The sheriff does not think Deorr was abducted by a stranger - that seems it would be rather difficult for that person to quietly get away with a screaming toddler with sounds echoing in the woods. And the sheriff does not think a wild animal grabbed Deorr. He has stated he does not have a clue.

So, what idea is our next step to work on? Perhaps Deorr did not make it back from that trip to the store? Have we thought about that??

 

[Mickshawn]

I thought I've read brown..

Blue, I thought the poster said?

Questions: Could Deorr have been picked up by somebody and carried to the edge of the Reservoir...put him down (leaving smell for SAR dogs) and picked up again and carried elsewhere?

If he was picked up (at the campsite) by somebody he didn't know and like and cried out, would his parents have heard him? I'm guessing not because of distance and stream noise.

 

[SleuthMom]

I feel so dumb. Are you able to explain?

and I feel dumb too, what's the importance of his eye color again? in the pics they look brown. mom's more hazel, dad's brown...

The first picture is from Deorr's mom:



This link is from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, stating his eyes are blue:

http://www.missingkids.com/poster/NCMC/1251277/1/screen

 

[La Louve]

I thought I've read brown..



Questions: Could Deorr have been picked up by somebody and carried to the edge of the Reservoir...put him down (leaving smell for SAR dogs) and picked up again and carried elsewhere?

If he was picked up (at the campsite) by somebody he didn't know and like and cried out, would his parents have heard him? I'm guessing not because of distance and stream noise.

The dogs picked up Deorr's scent at the campsite, not at the reservoir.

 

[miimaa]

Has anyone read whether DeOrr was actually left with the great grandfather when the parents went exploring? Was he actually physically LEFT WITH grandpa by his parents? Because I have seen no statements from grandpa except a news story that he thought DeOrr was with the parents. How exactly did that exchange happen with the parents going to explore and who was watching DeOrr? Why would either party think DeOrr was with the other.......? Were any of them certain of his whereabouts? None of that is clear to me from what I have read so far.

Also if dad had DeOrr at the local store around 1:00 and (I read) the blanket was still in the truck when it was discovered DeOrr was missing -- what campsite/what activities occurred after returning from the store? Meaning did he fall asleep in the truck and was left there for a bit?

 

[ClaireNC]

Does anyone know if this report is accurate that the water in the creek near their campsite runs TOWARD the reservoir? If so, then this totally eliminates the creek for me because it means only 1/2 mile of creek is possible.

I kept thinking the creek ran AWAY from the reservoir and thought their campsite was downstream from the reservoir. It sounds like it is upstream from it which means water dumps into the reservoir and only 1/2 mile away.

"The family's campsite sat approximately 40 yards from a fast-moving creek -- four to six feet in width and about a foot deep -- that spills into the Timber Creek Reservoir, a half mile from where the toddler was last seen."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/07/2...den-yield-no-clues-in-hunt-for-idaho-toddler/

The family were camping about 40 meters from a fast-flowing creek that empties into the Timber Creek Reservoir.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...t-not-one-clue-whereabouts.html#ixzz3gomT1mid

Those news reports are wrong. The Timber Creek runs into the Reservoir at the other end from where the were camping and runs out and away from the reservoir on the side they were on. Water runs downhill. The reservoir is at a higher elevation than the campground.

Here is an aerial image of the reservoir and campsite. It is tilted so the top of the map is the highest elevation. Excuse the rough drawing. The blue line is the Creek flowing into the river at the top and out near the campground. The red "arrow" is where I think they were actually camping. In this image there is a truck with camper parked there. Also looking at the shape of the reservoir, you can see the water runs in at the top in this image and flows out at the bottom forming that long finger-like shape.




This image was taken from this map: https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Ti...m2!3m1!1s0x5357b2face15292b:0x50f57ef867884c6

 

[ClaireNC]

Has anyone read whether DeOrr was actually left with the great grandfather when the parents went exploring? Was he actually physically LEFT WITH grandpa by his parents? Because I have seen no statements from grandpa except a news story that he thought DeOrr was with the parents. How exactly did that exchange happen with the parents going to explore and who was watching DeOrr? Why would either party think DeOrr was with the other.......? Were any of them certain of his whereabouts? None of that is clear to me from what I have read so far.

Also if dad had DeOrr at the local store around 1:00 and (I read) the blanket was still in the truck when it was discovered DeOrr was missing -- what campsite/what activities occurred after returning from the store? Meaning did he fall asleep in the truck and was left there for a bit?

The main source of any "details" we have about what happened that day is the long interview that the parents did a few days after he went missing. [video=youtube;mwM1oG3z358]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwM1oG3z358[/video]

Paraphrasing, the dad basically says that they went to explore the area and thought DeOrr would be "good with great grandpa" near the campfire. When they came back they asked great grandpa where little DeOrr was and he responded with "I thought he was with you." Or something along those lines. That is pretty much all we have. The story about the trip to the store also came from that interview.

 

[La Louve]

Those news reports are wrong. The Timber Creek runs into the Reservoir at the other end from where the were camping and runs out and away from the reservoir on the side they were on. Water runs downhill. The reservoir is at a higher elevation than the campground.

Here is an aerial image of the reservoir and campsite. It is tilted so the top of the map is the highest elevation. Excuse the rough drawing. The blue line is the Creek flowing into the river at the top and out near the campground. The red "arrow" is where I think they were actually camping. In this image there is a truck with camper parked there.

View attachment 78661

snipped for space

Thanks Claire that was very helpful! So Deorr's body would not have ended up in the reservoir if it was transported by the creek. This makes me think they need to search further downstream. And like sarx posted last night, they need to start at square one again.

I think the confusion about who Deorr was with has to do with his naptime. If he was lying down in the truck and the parents said they were leaving, thinking that grandpa knew Deorr was in the truck. But grandpa didn't realize Deorr was in the truck (when the parents left) so when the parents came back he thought Deorr had been with them the whole time.

Something similar happened to my sister and BIL recently only it was with their dog. They'd been out shopping and had all kinds of stuff to unload from the truck. Sis thought BIL was going to let the dog out of the truck and BIL thought sis was going to do it. Next thing you know we're in the backyard wondering where the dog is. And the ensuing conversation went like this: Sis: "I thought you were going to let her out!!" BIL: "No, I thought YOU were!!!

Fortunately when we went to look for her in a panic, the dog was happily waiting on her cushy fleece-lined backseat of the truck.

 

[tlcya]

REMINDER: If it cannot be linked with an appropriate Main Stream Media source or if it falls outside of TOS, do not discuss it, suggest it, or even hint at it here.

The dissemination of rumor in this case must end. Mods have issued warning after warning about such behavior.

Thank You

tlcya

 

[ninij9]

Morning coffee ramblings.............


I understand that all theories regarding this case have to be on the table at this point, including the theory that he was carried off by a wild predator. Here is the problem I have with that.

I've gone camping and ATV riding hundreds of times in the last 25 some-odd years. I live way up in the mountains next to a National Forest, and on any given day, I can use that forest like a big playground. The forest covers more than 3/4 million acres.

Although there are a few established campground areas, most of the time people will simply pull up in a vehicle, clear a spot, and camp wherever they feel like. That's pretty much the way I've always done it too, depending on where I wanted to go ride quads that weekend. There have been plenty of times when I was camping out there and didn't see or hear another individual for the entire weekend. It's remote, it's isolated, and it's rugged.

When you pull up to ANY campsite and start unloading and making noise, the animals that were lurking in that area are going to flee, especially the larger animals such as deer, elk, cougars, wolves, bobcats,coyotes, bears and javelinas. To this day, I have yet to pull up and begin unpacking my pickup while a bear or a mountain lion sits a few hundred yards away in the shade watching me. Once you do get unloaded and unpacked, and decide to walk around and "explore" the area, you aren't going to find any large animals anywhere near you, they've left the area. The squirrels.....hmmm...yeah, they may hang around....but consider the size of their brains, not to mention they have a safe haven 50' off the ground.

The entire premise of hunting is based on the fact that wild animals don't just hang around like family pets, while you take pot shots at them. You have to go out and find them. You have to sneak up on them. The only way they'll come to you is if you are camouflaged and hidden.

With all of that said above, this same situation would apply to Deorr and his family. In this case we have lots of activity, 4 grown adults and a young child, making noise, doors slamming, people laughing and walking around. The busier and noisier the campsite, the more likely the animals are going to leave the area immediately. They were there for awhile before Deorr vanished, further exasperating the situation.

Taken completely out of this equation would be the part about this so-called predator, seemingly unafraid of humans, running across flat ground, snatching the child up in his jaws, running back across flat land, and disappearing into the brush while two grown adults see and hear absolutely nothing. I've seen lots of bears, but I've never seen one capable of doing that. Mountain lions are so elusive you hardly ever see one, even from a distance. I've managed to catch pictures of them on my game cameras, but have never come across one face-to-face.

I highly doubt that Deorr was snatched up by a wild animal in the beginning of this saga, but I have little doubt that those same wild animals will find him after being alone out in the woods for 13 days and counting.

They need to keep searching and get volunteers to scour the woods in an attempt to find him before the predators do. Forget about the "trained" searchers and the evidence trampling B.S.--- just get out there and walk around aimlessly in a one mile radius. Otherwise, all they WILL find is a camo jacket and cowboy boots.

Excellent post. I have been thinking that while wild animals would be highly unlikely to enter camp and steal little DeOrr, its very likely that some time during his getting lost in the wild he stumbled upon a den, or was targeted by a wild animal.
It could have been an hour later or a day or more. Why is everyone fixated on something coming IN to the camp? I've seen little ones move faster than superman and parents will say he was gone in a flash. My own son used to disappear as soon as I blinked.

Having said this, the coyotes here in new York state have been recently coming right into yards to grab our dogs. And there was a hideous incident in Monticello New York a few years ago where a bear actually took a baby right out of a stroller who was napping outside her back door with mom right inside. Broad daylight. Scouts honor.

So I am getting a rash from jumping on and off this here fence. Still thinking creek.

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[miimaa]

The main source of any "details" we have about what happened that day is the long interview that the parents did a few days after he went missing.
Paraphrasing, the dad basically says that they went to explore the area and thought DeOrr would be "good with great grandpa" near the campfire. When they came back they asked great grandpa where little DeOrr was and he responded with "I thought he was with you." Or something along those lines. That is pretty much all we have. The story about the trip to the store also came from that interview.

Thanks and yes I have seen that interview. So we have no explicit explanation or timeline. Not that we have heard "Grandpa agreed to watch" or "DeOrr was left with Grandpa" because it scares me that Grandpa was surprised DeOrr was not with his parents. That is the point right there that something is missing (from what we know -- I am guessing LE has a detailed explanation of events leading up to the discovery of DeOrr missing).

 

[La Louve]

Excellent post. I have been thinking that while wild animals would be highly unlikely to enter camp and steal little DeOrr, its very likely that some time during his getting lost in the wild he stumbled upon a den, or was targeted by a wild animal.
It could have been an hour later or a day or more. Why is everyone fixated on something coming IN to the camp? I've seen little ones move faster than superman and parents will say he was gone in a flash. My own son used to disappear as soon as I blinked.

Having said this, the coyotes here in new York state have been recently coming right into yards to grab our dogs. And there was a hideous incident in Monticello New York a few years ago where a bear actually took a baby right out of a stroller who was napping outside her back door with mom right inside. Broad daylight. Scouts honor.

So I am getting a rash from jumping on and off this here fence. Still thinking creek.

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I don't think everyone is fixated on someone coming IN to camp. I've tossed around scenarios exactly like you typed: Deorr wanders off in camp...maybe a hundred feet or so....maybe he falls down into the creek and is knocked unconscious. A cougar, hanging out in the trees above the creek watching for prey, siezes the opportunity for an easy meal and jumps down, grabs Deorr and is off to another tree. Or any number of variations. I don't think it would be unusual if there were mutiple natural elements that led to Deorr's disappearance.

 

[Hatfield]

Those news reports are wrong. The Timber Creek runs into the Reservoir at the other end from where the were camping and runs out and away from the reservoir on the side they were on. Water runs downhill. The reservoir is at a higher elevation than the campground.

Here is an aerial image of the reservoir and campsite. It is tilted so the top of the map is the highest elevation. Excuse the rough drawing. The blue line is the Creek flowing into the river at the top and out near the campground. The red "arrow" is where I think they were actually camping. In this image there is a truck with camper parked there. Also looking at the shape of the reservoir, you can see the water runs in at the top in this image and flows out at the bottom forming that long finger-like shape.


View attachment 78661

This image was taken from this map: https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Ti...m2!3m1!1s0x5357b2face15292b:0x50f57ef867884c6

Thanks so much !!

That explains it great and is what I originally had thought.

The possibility of him falling in the creek at the Campground and getting washed downstream maybe even quite a few miles is back on the table for me now.

That picture also shows something we were talking about regarding the Cremains dumping.

If they dumped the cremains in that area of the Lake where there is that "finger" at the bottom of the lake flows into the creek, then that is the spot where the ashes would flow right into the creek and Contaminate the whole creek all the way down.

All lakes like this one typically have a "spillway" or Dam area where the water flows into a creek (or river). This picture is showing where it is in that finger area south of the lake. It is a small spillway/dam area and the creek is right there.

I really wish we knew exactly where those cremains were dumped. Telling us "the reservoir" does not give us enough details to know if the alleged dumping of the cremains was maybe hinting of something other than an honest dumping of someones cremains.

If the cremains were dumped right at the bottom of that finger area I would have serious questions.

 

[renarde]

Those news reports are wrong. The Timber Creek runs into the Reservoir at the other end from where the were camping and runs out and away from the reservoir on the side they were on. Water runs downhill. The reservoir is at a higher elevation than the campground.

Here is an aerial image of the reservoir and campsite. It is tilted so the top of the map is the highest elevation. Excuse the rough drawing. The blue line is the Creek flowing into the river at the top and out near the campground. The red "arrow" is where I think they were actually camping. In this image there is a truck with camper parked there. Also looking at the shape of the reservoir, you can see the water runs in at the top in this image and flows out at the bottom forming that long finger-like shape.


View attachment 78661

This image was taken from this map: https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Ti...m2!3m1!1s0x5357b2face15292b:0x50f57ef867884c6

Great map. Doesn't the creek also fork out downstream from the reservoir? I thought it also flowed right there where your red arrow is.

 

[steelman]

I tend to agree that it is "unlikely" around the immediate camping area however I would have to politely disagree if the boy managed to walk/crawl off on his own and managed to get some distance away from that campground.

An isolated very small child alone in the woods would be very enticing for a large predator such as Idaho has (Cougars, Bears, Wolves). Especially if the boy started to make crying sounds which may sound like a wounded animal to a predator and could actually attract the predator to the boy.

Linked below is just 1 example of a small boy being attacked while 10 feet ahead of another group of people.

http://www.mercurynews.com/san-mate...lion-that-attacked-boy-cupertino-found-killed

We have already had other examples given with links of people who had gotten attacked and a simple google search of "cougar attack" provides many more examples.

I agree it is a rare event but it is a possibility nonetheless and I think that is all that most people are saying.

I agree that if he wandered off a good ways from the camp, the chance of a predator attack might be greater, but you still have to factor in all the initial noises that would have run them off in the first place.

Shortly after he vanished, you have the parents and grandad walking around screaming at the top of their lungs along the creek bed, the road, and the overgrown brushy areas. No animal in his right mind is gonna hang around with all of that going on.

After the searchers arrived, just about every animal over 5 pounds would have hightailed it for the hills, with the exception of some of the burrowing animals like skunks and coons. That was actually the intent of my post, get in there and find this kid before the bigger animals return to the scene. They WILL return, once it quietens down again.

Another phenomenon I haven't seen mentioned too much is echo's and sound distortion. Deorr may have gotten separated from his parents and could actually hear them calling for him, but due to the echo's created by the surrounding hills and outcroppings, it sounded to him like they were in a different area than they actually were. Unfortunately, as he continued to move in the direction of the sounds, he got further and further away.

Anybody that has ever camped around mountains and valleys knows that sound will bounce off of all kinds of things. It will sometimes make things seem much closer than they really are. Gunshots are a good example of something you will hear out in the forest that sounds as if it came just a few hundred yards away, when in reality, it may be some dude target shooting a 1/2 mile away from you. It sounds close, but it isn't. It's the sound distortion, echo's, and the differences in elevation that play tricks with you.

Most likely he would have been going cross-country on grass, leaves, and sticks, which eliminates footprints, or at least severely limits them. I think he may have headed up to a higher elevation, because to him, that's where it sounded like his parents calls were coming from.

 

[ninij9]

I don't think everyone is fixated on someone coming IN to camp. I've tossed around scenarios exactly like you typed: Deorr wanders off in camp...maybe a hundred feet or so....maybe he falls down into the creek and is knocked unconscious. A cougar, hanging out in the trees above the creek watching for prey, siezes the opportunity for an easy meal and jumps down, grabs Deorr and is off to another tree. Or any number of variations. I don't think it would be unusual if there were mutiple natural elements that led to Deorr's disappearance.

I very much agree. Also he could have fallen into the creek way downstream after walking along that high embankment. I really wish they would follow that stream for miles. (Maybe they have).

About my post above I do know some of us have thought it could be a combination of events leading to his disappearance, I was just speaking to those that post reasons why wild animals would avoid a human camp. I never even thought that's how an animal would have got him. I always pictured him walking out quite a ways first.

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