CONVICTION OVERTURNED MD - Hae Min Lee, 17, Baltimore, 13 Jan 1999

[delilah]

He actually didn't actively loan Jay the phone, he just left it in the glove compartment because cell phones weren't allowed in school. Jay found it in there and decided to use it. This is verified trial testimony; one of the few things Jay has been consistent about.

Thanks for that. Coincidentally, I've just got to that part in Undisclosed. Do we have records of calls Jay may have made on his own phone that day?

 

[Aleph]

What new evidence came out? It sounded like a huge stretch to assume Jay was the one who called crime stoppers. No proof. At all.
I think the Undisclosed podcast has been terrible, nothing like Serial and is totally biased towards Adnan. It seems like their entire defense is accusing every single player, except Adnan, of lying and corruption. It's getting ridiculous.

I agree completely.

 

[mrssunshine]

Yeah Adnan left his 24 hours old brand new cellphone with Jay, the guy he spent half he day with, the day his ex g/f was murdered, the same ordinary day he can barely remember.
Funny thing is Jay testified Adnan left him that phone so he could receive his call for a pick up. So let's see, left phone in glove box or left with accomplice for a pick up call?
I think the info about the motorcycle in the notes may have come from info given in Jen's police interview, where she told how she saw Jay and Adnan together and that Adnan had killed Hae. She was asked by police if Jay would help kill Hae and she said no, well maybe if he paid him, to help. So police take that info and when checking into/interviewing Jay, they ask if he made any large purchases ect.
To accuse the police of framing Adnan (thus letting the real killer of a 17 year old girl walk free) and feeding info to Jay, so he could get a used motorcycle is crazy to me.

 

[Tiger09]

Actually, it's testified to- by a few people- that Jay borrowed vehicles and got rides from friends, former students at Woodlawn High, and then current students of Woodlawn High. In 1999, cell phones were vehemently NOT allowed in school. I stress this because then I was a sophomore in hs (not at Woodlawn, nor even in MD). But at many schools, if you were caught with your cell, it was confiscated and you faced severe consequences. I no doubt believe Adnan thought leaving it in the glovebox was a better option. My friends and I did that as well, and most of us didn't have jobs, nor were we seeking to kill anyone. As far as the car borrowing, it's testified that Jay borrowed Stephanie's car, Jen's car, and "Kathy"'s car, as well as others. Stephanie and Adnan had been friends since middle school, so I don't see it as a stretch nor devious plan that Jay, Stephanie's boyfriend since middle school, borrowed Adnan's car.

And Adnan does have a clear memory of what he did that day. His story has never changed. At all. Now Jay's story has changed multiple times. *tap tap tap*

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[MissHaley]

What occurred to me after the 'Charm City' episode & then 'Crimestoppers' one, is that a lot of times, the LE relied on CI's or known criminals to provide leads for them more often than not. It seemed that they wanted the easy way out instead of following a proper investigation.

Now to hear that they got the CS tip on 2/1 but said it was on 2/12? And Jay was just arrested on, was it 1/26? the end of Jan. anyway for resisting arrest & assaulting a PO? Then they get a tip after few days after his arrest? But, they never followed up on the supposed 'tip' or the tip didn't even provide any useful info about Hae. But, it was paid out anyway? Someone can't get paid for tip that just said to 'look at this person'. But, I guess, back then with those LE's they could.

It's just so strange, esp. hearing about all the other cases that the same cops were involved in back then & how much of the same things were going on.

 

[MissHaley]

Yeah Adnan left his 24 hours old brand new cellphone with Jay, the guy he spent half he day with, the day his ex g/f was murdered, the same ordinary day he can barely remember.
Funny thing is Jay testified Adnan left him that phone so he could receive his call for a pick up. So let's see, left phone in glove box or left with accomplice for a pick up call?
I think the info about the motorcycle in the notes may have come from info given in Jen's police interview, where she told how she saw Jay and Adnan together and that Adnan had killed Hae. She was asked by police if Jay would help kill Hae and she said no, well maybe if he paid him, to help. So police take that info and when checking into/interviewing Jay, they ask if he made any large purchases ect.
To accuse the police of framing Adnan (thus letting the real killer of a 17 year old girl walk free) and feeding info to Jay, so he could get a used motorcycle is crazy to me.[/QUOTE]

BBM- I agree it's crazy to think that, however, in the cases they cited in 'charm city' ep., that's exactly what happened to those people that were accused. They went by a witness testimony & the people that were prisoned were innocent. They found out other people committed the crimes.

 

[cujenn81]

Yeah Adnan left his 24 hours old brand new cellphone with Jay, the guy he spent half he day with, the day his ex g/f was murdered, the same ordinary day he can barely remember.
Funny thing is Jay testified Adnan left him that phone so he could receive his call for a pick up. So let's see, left phone in glove box or left with accomplice for a pick up call?
I think the info about the motorcycle in the notes may have come from info given in Jen's police interview, where she told how she saw Jay and Adnan together and that Adnan had killed Hae. She was asked by police if Jay would help kill Hae and she said no, well maybe if he paid him, to help. So police take that info and when checking into/interviewing Jay, they ask if he made any large purchases ect.
To accuse the police of framing Adnan (thus letting the real killer of a 17 year old girl walk free) and feeding info to Jay, so he could get a used motorcycle is crazy to me.

BBM.
I don't believe the police "framed" Adnan or fed info to Jay (at least, not intentionally). I don't even really buy into the theory that they focused on Adnan as a suspect solely because he's Muslim.

I, personally, believe the Baltimore police had a larger case load than they knew what to do with, and as a result, they failed to conduct all of their investigations with the level of care they should have. As one user put it, they took the easy way out.

If you read the interview transcripts, it's abundantly clear that the police gave them information prior to recording them. For example, the following exchange took place during Jenn's recorded interview at the police station, with her lawyer present:

Det: And you indicate several phone calls coming into your residence however you're not sure whether it was Jay's cell phone or the telephone?

Jenn: Right. I... I dont....I mean I don't even remember you know remember the phone number but you told me that he called my house so apparently it was either on the cell or on my house phone number."

 

[cvillemegan]

I am relatively new to this case. I listened to Serial this summer and have gotten through three episodes of Undisclosed, but I've read some articles about the other episodes.

To add on to the comments about Baltimore police not properly investigating this...one thing I have never heard addressed anywhere is what they were doing with Hae's case in the weeks between her disappearance and her body being found. In my community, we have had two college students go missing in the past 5 years. In both cases, there were many news releases, news conferences, searches, etc., in the hours, days, weeks following their disappearance. Everyone in our community, and half the country, knew these young adult women were missing and some variation of the details of the last time their friends had seen them.

With Hae, we know the police called some of her friends the night she disappeared. Hae's friends didn't get worried about her until a few days later. That suggests there were no follow-up interviews with her friends later that first week and no news coverage. Surely the police contacted, or tried to contact, her dad to determine Hae wasn't with him? I know missing adults are treated differently from missing minors, but come on, Hae was a good student in the final semester of her senior year, in love with a new guy. The likelihood she would just choose to leave seems slim to me, and a couple of phone calls should have told police she wasn't with her dad.

The reason I harp on this is because in other investigations, Hae's friends would have been interviewed again in the days after she went missing. Their memories would have been fresh, no uncertainty about what day really was the wrestling match or did they see Hae after school. And probably, those memories would have stuck with them, along with the memory of being interviewed, and they would have shared that with Koenig.

Another thought: I am not convinced there was no wrestling match the day Hae was murdered. Papers do sometimes get details wrong; they may have printed the wrong dates or the wrong schools. It seems like if Hae had stood up her friend who was the co-manager the week before, she would have then spoken to the co-manager in the days following and said something like, "Hey, I'm really sorry about the other day." The fact that the co-manager doesn't remember that, or any convo with Hae after that match, makes me believe it could have happened the day Hae died.

 

[MissHaley]

I am relatively new to this case. I listened to Serial this summer and have gotten through three episodes of Undisclosed, but I've read some articles about the other episodes.

To add on to the comments about Baltimore police not properly investigating this...one thing I have never heard addressed anywhere is what they were doing with Hae's case in the weeks between her disappearance and her body being found. In my community, we have had two college students go missing in the past 5 years. In both cases, there were many news releases, news conferences, searches, etc., in the hours, days, weeks following their disappearance. Everyone in our community, and half the country, knew these young adult women were missing and some variation of the details of the last time their friends had seen them.

With Hae, we know the police called some of her friends the night she disappeared. Hae's friends didn't get worried about her until a few days later. That suggests there were no follow-up interviews with her friends later that first week and no news coverage. Surely the police contacted, or tried to contact, her dad to determine Hae wasn't with him? I know missing adults are treated differently from missing minors, but come on, Hae was a good student in the final semester of her senior year, in love with a new guy. The likelihood she would just choose to leave seems slim to me, and a couple of phone calls should have told police she wasn't with her dad.

The reason I harp on this is because in other investigations, Hae's friends would have been interviewed again in the days after she went missing. Their memories would have been fresh, no uncertainty about what day really was the wrestling match or did they see Hae after school. And probably, those memories would have stuck with them, along with the memory of being interviewed, and they would have shared that with Koenig.

Another thought: I am not convinced there was no wrestling match the day Hae was murdered. Papers do sometimes get details wrong; they may have printed the wrong dates or the wrong schools. It seems like if Hae had stood up her friend who was the co-manager the week before, she would have then spoken to the co-manager in the days following and said something like, "Hey, I'm really sorry about the other day." The fact that the co-manager doesn't remember that, or any convo with Hae after that match, makes me believe it could have happened the day Hae died.

Good Post. The Undisclosed sp. '28 days' follows what was done from Hae's disappearance thru finding her body.
It was confirmed that Hae was supposed to be at work on 1/13 from I think 5 or 6PM until 10PM. Her parents & employer verified this. She couldn't have had a wresting match & also had to be at work the same night. Her parents &/or LE called Lens Crafters & the workers told them that Hae did not show up for work.
It is strange that even with this known info, the prosecutors presented the incorrect 'wrestling match' theory to the jury.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

BBM.
I don't believe the police "framed" Adnan or fed info to Jay (at least, not intentionally). I don't even really buy into the theory that they focused on Adnan as a suspect solely because he's Muslim.

I, personally, believe the Baltimore police had a larger case load than they knew what to do with, and as a result, they failed to conduct all of their investigations with the level of care they should have. As one user put it, they took the easy way out.

If you read the interview transcripts, it's abundantly clear that the police gave them information prior to recording them. For example, the following exchange took place during Jenn's recorded interview at the police station, with her lawyer present:

Det: And you indicate several phone calls coming into your residence however you're not sure whether it was Jay's cell phone or the telephone?

Jenn: Right. I... I dont....I mean I don't even remember you know remember the phone number but you told me that he called my house so apparently it was either on the cell or on my house phone number."

They also told NHRNC (not-her-real-name Cathy) what day Adnan supposedly showed up at her house with Jay. I don't have the exact quote on that but I can find it if anyone wants me to.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

(snipped)
The reason I harp on this is because in other investigations, Hae's friends would have been interviewed again in the days after she went missing. Their memories would have been fresh, no uncertainty about what day really was the wrestling match or did they see Hae after school. And probably, those memories would have stuck with them, along with the memory of being interviewed, and they would have shared that with Koenig.

Another issue here is that the reports the investigators submitted were often written quite a while after the interviews took place, which means info was lost, forgotten, or possibly quoted out of context. There are several people mentioned in detective notes who never seem to have been interviewed, including one very important person who saw Hae at school around 2:30.

 

[MissHaley]

Another issue here is that the reports the investigators submitted were often written quite a while after the interviews took place, which means info was lost, forgotten, or possibly quoted out of context. There are several people mentioned in detective notes who never seem to have been interviewed, including one very important person who saw Hae at school around 2:30.

Yes. Wasn't it in the police notes that they interviewed some friends on a certain day but, the notes submitted were dated in April? All of them? Undisclosed questioned this because these notes were way after Adnan was arrested.
And they had on their list to interview 8 people but LE only gave notes to 3 of them?

 

[cujenn81]

Yes. Wasn't it in the police notes that they interviewed some friends on a certain day but, the notes submitted were dated in April? All of them? Undisclosed questioned this because these notes were way after Adnan was arrested.
And they had on their list to interview 8 people but LE only gave notes to 3 of them?

In one episode of the podcast, they went so far as to claim that one of the interview notes was dated February 29th and 1999 was not a leap year.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

In one episode of the podcast, they went so far as to claim that one of the interview notes was dated February 29th and 1999 was not a leap year.

I have seen that actual document somewhere, but it's been a while so I don't remember where exactly. Possibly on Susan Simpson's blog?

Serial Dynasty podcast had an interview with Neighbor Boy on the new episode from yesterday. I'm about to listen to it while I clean!

 

[cujenn81]

Rabia and Susan from Undisclosed were on The Docket on MSNBC today talking about the case. I caught the last part of it and they had a forensic anthropologist on there. He said, based on crime scene photos, it didn't appear that Hae was ever buried in Leakin Park. He said it looked more like she had placed there and covered up with leaves and dirt.

Is it possible that her body was moved there just prior to being found? That would HONESTLY makes a lot of sense to me because it was something that crossed my mind while reading Jenn's interview transcript.

There was a lot she said that confused me... like when she talked about hearing that Hae was missing on TV while she was at Champs sports bar with Jay. She kept saying she was shocked and freaked out when she heard that "her body was missing". She kept saying "Hae's BODY was missing" and the detective actually said "you mean HAE was missing". Then he asked her why she would be surprised to hear that on the news when she already knew that Hae had been killed and that she hadn't been seen for a week. Jenn then backtracked, of course, and said maybe she wasn't shocked... maybe she was just concerned because she didn't know what they should do.

She literally said something about how "her body" was missing 4 or 5 times & I just remember thinking that her wording it that way was really freaking odd to me.

 

[Aleph]

Is it possible that her body was moved there just prior to being found?

RSBM

Moving a body that's been dead for more than a month would have been an unthinkably unpleasant task, and the body would have left obvious signs of having been disturbed.



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[cujenn81]

RSBM

Moving a body that's been dead for more than a month would have been an unthinkably unpleasant task, and the body would have left obvious signs of having been disturbed.



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Hmm... you're absolutely right. I didn't even think about that.

That was just a rhetorical question I threw out there, BTW. The anthropologist didn't say he thought her body had been moved... he just said that the body didn't appear to have ever been buried... or in other words, it didn't appear that a grave had actually been dug out of the ground. He said it was more likely that her body had merely been covered up with dirt and grass, above ground.

Although, I don't really know why Jay would make that up (aside from the fact that he's told numerous lies about other parts of the story). But it still strikes me as odd that Jenn used the wording that she did.

 

[mrssunshine]

I tried to listen to the show on msnbc. It is kind of unprofessional, reminds me of those old cable local access shows!
I don't think they have come up with anything that makes Adnan look not guilty. It's been tons of speculation and conjecture.
They really implied about Jay being the Crime Stopper tipster with like no evidence at all to back up that claim.
Now after seeing that video of the broken wiper from the police that matches up with what Jay told the police said Adnan told him.
This podcast just throws speculation on everyone involved--Police, Prosecution, Jen, Jay, Don, ect and it has left me feeling that Adnan is more guilty then ever.

 

[Soulmagent]

I tried to listen to the show on msnbc. It is kind of unprofessional, reminds me of those old cable local access shows!
I don't think they have come up with anything that makes Adnan look not guilty. It's been tons of speculation and conjecture.
They really implied about Jay being the Crime Stopper tipster with like no evidence at all to back up that claim.
Now after seeing that video of the broken wiper from the police that matches up with what Jay told the police said Adnan told him.
This podcast just throws speculation on everyone involved--Police, Prosecution, Jen, Jay, Don, ect and it has left me feeling that Adnan is more guilty then ever.

Can you link that video ? I have not seen it but would like to.

In all honesty it seems the State case was often speculation as well.
I am on the fence about who killed Hae or what happen that day. I have read parts of transcript from dozens of murder trials in Baltimore and they all have the tipster ,and the lair as the main witness and/ or alot of other common factors which makes this quote from this article just a tad more interesting than it was before I went though other cases.
https://theintercept.com/2015/01/07/prosecutor-serial-case-goes-record/

It was “pretty much a run-of-the-mill domestic violence murder,” prosecutor Kevin Urick said in an exclusive interview with The Intercept.

If the homicide detectives had a case closing formula and they had a method of getting the correct tips and information to get a run of the mill case closed then it kinda makes since that every case they seem to have for a time ,had a phone tip , a letter to present for evidence , a friend who heard a confession etc..and a crime solver payout and a boyfriend or husband . I guess then he would come to think all the cases are alike and run of the mill wouldn't he?

I also think that the claims against homicide detectives in Baltimore seem kinda run of the mill as well. Is it because they are run of the mill or because the things that make them the same are based on the similar ?

I just looks like in baltimore the same case is presented over and over ,with even witnesses making such similar comments in one trial that another witness in another trial will also make in another. Run of the mill witness statements I guess ??

So am I at a loss as to what happen in Hae's final moments.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Can you link that video ? I have not seen it but would like to.

In all honesty it seems the State case was often speculation as well.
I am on the fence about who killed Hae or what happen that day. I have read parts of transcript from dozens of murder trials in Baltimore and they all have the tipster ,and the lair as the main witness and/ or alot of other common factors which makes this quote from this article just a tad more interesting than it was before I went though other cases.
https://theintercept.com/2015/01/07/prosecutor-serial-case-goes-record/



If the homicide detectives had a case closing formula and they had a method of getting the correct tips and information to get a run of the mill case closed then it kinda makes since that every case they seem to have for a time ,had a phone tip , a letter to present for evidence , a friend who heard a confession etc..and a crime solver payout and a boyfriend or husband . I guess then he would come to think all the cases are alike and run of the mill wouldn't he?

I also think that the claims against homicide detectives in Baltimore seem kinda run of the mill as well. Is it because they are run of the mill or because the things that make them the same are based on the similar ?

I just looks like in baltimore the same case is presented over and over ,with even witnesses making such similar comments in one trial that another witness in another trial will also make in another. Run of the mill witness statements I guess ??

So am I at a loss as to what happen in Hae's final moments.

http://www.msnbc.com/shift/watch/the-docket-517107779847

Here's the Docket link for you.