CONVICTION OVERTURNED MD - Hae Min Lee, 17, Baltimore, 13 Jan 1999

[Soulmagent]

They are, but they're all a bit biased, in my opinion. Undisclosed is hosted by a lawyer friend of Adnan Syed's and two other supporters. Serial Dynasty is also pro-Adnan.

Knowing what I do about statement analysis (from reading books and online), it seemed self-evident to me that Adnan Syed was interviewed on Serial that he is almost certainly guilty. So there's no mystery, per se, in my opinion. I've continued following the case, though, because it's fascinating watching the mental process of the people who are determined to believe that he's innocent.


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Can you explain some of what you know of statement analysis?
Just a quick summary will work for me.

 

[Aleph]

Can you explain some of what you know of statement analysis?
Just a quick summary will work for me.

Just that guilty people and innocent people talk differently. To me, Adnan talked like a guilty person.

He rarely said Hae's name during his Serial interviews. Even O.J. showed interest in finding "the real killer"; Adnan doesn't even do that. He doesn't seem to have any outrage about Hae's murder or his supposed false imprisonment. His accounts of being cool with everyone involved in his case seemed disingenuous to me, especially since he seemed reactive/quick to anger whenever Sarah Koenig pressed him too hard on any point. As he said, he just wanted the podcast interviews to be over. I would think that an innocent person would be desperate for a chance to tell their side of the story. He was very hesitant when Koenig suggested doing DNA tests on whatever was on Hae's fingernails.

This is all the opposite of what would be "expected" for an innocent person. That's the main reason why I think he's guilty. The theories about his innocence all fall apart under scrutiny.

 

[Aleph]

I agree, nothing like conspiracy theories to keep me entertained. If adnan (perhaps w jays help before or after the fact) didn't do it I'd be quite shocked!


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Me too.

On Reddit, someone theorized that during the unaccounted-for morning time, when Adnan and Jay were supposedly looking for a birthday present for Stephanie, they were really trying to buy a gun. There's no evidence for this, of course, but it would explain Adnan and Jay's mutual weirdness about that morning. Neither of them can admit to looking for a gun; it would make Jay an outright accomplice and Adnan, of course, can't admit it.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Just that guilty people and innocent people talk differently. To me, Adnan talked like a guilty person.

He rarely said Hae's name during his Serial interviews. Even O.J. showed interest in finding "the real killer"; Adnan doesn't even do that. He doesn't seem to have any outrage about Hae's murder or his supposed false imprisonment. His accounts of being cool with everyone involved in his case seemed disingenuous to me, especially since he seemed reactive/quick to anger whenever Sarah Koenig pressed him too hard on any point. As he said, he just wanted the podcast interviews to be over. I would think that an innocent person would be desperate for a chance to tell their side of the story. He was very hesitant when Koenig suggested doing DNA tests on whatever was on Hae's fingernails.

This is all the opposite of what would be "expected" for an innocent person. That's the main reason why I think he's guilty. The theories about his innocence all fall apart under scrutiny.

He wasn't hesitant about having the DNA tested - he was in shock, speechless, when Koenig informed him it had never been tested in the first place. The Innocence Project is involved and there will be a petition to test the DNA if the current appeals don't go through - assuming the DNA evidence hasn't been lost. In the trial transcripts, the lab person testifies that the seals had already been broken on DNA evidence that they received to test, so that leaves room for doubt in any results, unfortunately, whether they innocence OR guilt.

He can't go pointing fingers while he has an active and open appeal pending. Without evidence of someone else's involvement it's speculation, and that doesn't look good for a defendant.

It's not fair to judge his Serial interviews considering what is in the podcast is a small percentage of what he actually said, and has been edited, also. I was thinking that calling the victim by name was more important in analysis of a missing or abused child than in a general situation, but I may be wrong about that.

His defense team is actively pursuing leads that could potentially lead to the real killer, so it's not true that he's not interested in finding out what really happened. His attorney has a PI investigating leads.

I think there's a possibility "neighbor boy" was involved and that's how the "trunk pop" became part of Jay's story. In Serial, it sounds like neighbor boy is just some young kid, but in reality he's very close to Jay's age and they were actually good friends. They remained friends until recently when they had a tiff on Facebook, during the time Serial was airing.

I think Hae was trying to impress Don by scoring some weed for when they hung out after work, and somehow something went very wrong. I don't think Adnan killed her.

 

[cujenn81]

Just that guilty people and innocent people talk differently. To me, Adnan talked like a guilty person.

He rarely said Hae's name during his Serial interviews. Even O.J. showed interest in finding "the real killer"; Adnan doesn't even do that. He doesn't seem to have any outrage about Hae's murder or his supposed false imprisonment. His accounts of being cool with everyone involved in his case seemed disingenuous to me, especially since he seemed reactive/quick to anger whenever Sarah Koenig pressed him too hard on any point. As he said, he just wanted the podcast interviews to be over. I would think that an innocent person would be desperate for a chance to tell their side of the story. He was very hesitant when Koenig suggested doing DNA tests on whatever was on Hae's fingernails.

This is all the opposite of what would be "expected" for an innocent person. That's the main reason why I think he's guilty. The theories about his innocence all fall apart under scrutiny.

I found his behavior to be exactly what I expected. He acted similar to many other inmates who are forced to swallow the bitter pill of knowing they'll spend the rest of their natural lives behind bars for a crime they didn't commit. He's jaded.

Think about it. He's been in prison for 15+ years. I'm sure he's spent an insane amount of time thinking about every possible detail and questioning how he can use it to clear his name and prove his innocence. I'm sure he's spoken to a lot of people over the years who have claimed they were going to figure out the truth and help him. But, there comes a time when we all say... enough is enough... and we accept the fact that there's nothing more we can do.

That time probably came for AS about a decade ago. And then here comes another excited, bubbly journalist full of hope and she claims she's going to figure it all out for me... guess I might as well humor her... after all, these phone conversations break up the monotony of prison life and help pass the time.

He sounds skeptical about some of SK's ideas during their interviews because he's heard it all before... and he probably never believed anything would actually come out of any of this.

The only time I heard him get truly animated about anything AT ALL during that podcast was when SK said something about how AS just doesn't seem like someone who could have killed her... that he was too nice or whatever.

The reason this type of statement pisses him off so much is because he knows being a likable guy doesn't equate to diddly squat. He knows the charges will never be reversed simply because he "seems like a nice guy who wouldn't kill anybody".

In fact, I think he even said something in response to SK's statement... along the lines of... I'd rather people say I'm the worst guy in the world or that they could see me killing Hae but know I didn't because the evidence proves it.

To me, personally, that says a lot.

ETA: AS not seeming concerned about who really did kill Hae doesn't make me question his innocence either because that's not really his top priority. As selfish as that may sound... he must prove that he wasn't the one who did, first & foremost. LE isn't going to work new leads or reopen the investigation when they already have AS serving time for the crime. OJ said what he said to serve as a distraction because he really was the killer.

 

[MissHaley]

oh, this mystery is getting good! Continuing story! LOL
I also was speculating the same theory as MzOpinion8d posted above! Hae had approx. an hour before picking up her cousin at 3:15. She wasn't to be at work until 6PM until 10PM, then was to meet Don after work. The whole group of teenagers seemed to be into smoking weed & knew & hung around drug dealers. IMO, it seems that drugs is the connection.

Since the police unfortunately 'lost' her computer that was seized during the missing investigation & the murder, there leaves that huge hole in finding more info about her. To that, the police never got her pager records either, which also would tell more of the story.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

oh, this mystery is getting good! Continuing story! LOL
I also was speculating the same theory as MzOpinion8d posted above! Hae had approx. an hour before picking up her cousin at 3:15. She wasn't to be at work until 6PM until 10PM, then was to meet Don after work. The whole group of teenagers seemed to be into smoking weed & knew & hung around drug dealers. IMO, it seems that drugs is the connection.

Since the police unfortunately 'lost' her computer that was seized during the missing investigation & the murder, there leaves that huge hole in finding more info about her. To that, the police never got her pager records either, which also would tell more of the story.

Just to be clear, Hae didn't have any illegal drugs in her system at the time she died. I am guessing she probably rarely or never smoked weed, but happened to have friends that did. Very common in high school. Even if my theory is right, Hae was just being a typical teenage girl, trying to impress the boy she was infatuated with by getting weed. I don't think for a second she was getting it for herself.

Speaking of whom...he was actually a man, not a boy, since he was a couple of years older than her. I don't get the idea that he had anything to do with her death, but I do find it strange that he was supposed to meet her after work at 10 pm and didn't seem very concerned when she turned up missing. He didn't call the investigating police officer back until 1 am. He also never paged her again after that day, which a lot of people say is something that makes Adnan look guilty (because he never paged her either). But it's more strange that Don didn't page her, because he had no way of getting info about Hae whereas Adnan did, because of all their mutual friends.

Although, he eventually became friends with Hae's friend Debbie. In one of Debbie's interviews she said she talked to Don on the phone for SEVEN hours one night!

Recently on reddit, Hae's brother Yung Lee posted that the computer had been returned to the family after the investigation, so it wasn't missing as previously thought. I'm not sure where the "lost computer" info came from in the first place, but it was wrong, so he put the rumor to rest. He has only posted a couple of other times, one of which was about the broken turn signal and/or wiper lever in the car. He is a verified poster there, I believe.

There's been speculation that Has may have kept diary entries on a floppy disk, but Yung Lee said he doesn't think she did, since they had to share the computer. However, that leaves some trial info unsourced, because Kathleen Murphy quoted something as being from Hae's diary that wasn't in her written diary. I'd have to look it up for more specifics, however, because I don't recall what it was.

 

[Aleph]

I think Hae was trying to impress Don by scoring some weed for when they hung out after work, and somehow something went very wrong. I don't think Adnan killed her.

RSBM. You made a lot of interesting points. If I have time later I will try to address them. But this one is easy. Who gets strangled for attempting to buy weed? "She wanted to buy weed from me, so I strangled her," makes no sense as a motive.

And if a weed dealer were going to hurt someone for trying to buy from them, why strangulation? Strangulation is a forceful, intimate look-me-in-the-eyes kind of crime. Serial killers and intimate partner killers kill this way.

 

[Aleph]

Just to be clear, Hae didn't have any illegal drugs in her system at the time she died. I am guessing she probably rarely or never smoked weed, but happened to have friends that did. Very common in high school. Even if my theory is right, Hae was just being a typical teenage girl, trying to impress the boy she was infatuated with by getting weed. I don't think for a second she was getting it for herself.

RSBM by me again. Do we have any evidence that Don was a pot smoker? Or asked Hae to get him pot?

 

[MissHaley]

Just to be clear, Hae didn't have any illegal drugs in her system at the time she died. I am guessing she probably rarely or never smoked weed, but happened to have friends that did. Very common in high school. Even if my theory is right, Hae was just being a typical teenage girl, trying to impress the boy she was infatuated with by getting weed. I don't think for a second she was getting it for herself.

Speaking of whom...he was actually a man, not a boy, since he was a couple of years older than her. I don't get the idea that he had anything to do with her death, but I do find it strange that he was supposed to meet her after work at 10 pm and didn't seem very concerned when she turned up missing. He didn't call the investigating police officer back until 1 am. He also never paged her again after that day, which a lot of people say is something that makes Adnan look guilty (because he never paged her either). But it's more strange that Don didn't page her, because he had no way of getting info about Hae whereas Adnan did, because of all their mutual friends.

Although, he eventually became friends with Hae's friend Debbie. In one of Debbie's interviews she said she talked to Don on the phone for SEVEN hours one night!

Recently on reddit, Hae's brother Yung Lee posted that the computer had been returned to the family after the investigation, so it wasn't missing as previously thought. I'm not sure where the "lost computer" info came from in the first place, but it was wrong, so he put the rumor to rest. He has only posted a couple of other times, one of which was about the broken turn signal and/or wiper lever in the car. He is a verified poster there, I believe.

There's been speculation that Has may have kept diary entries on a floppy disk, but Yung Lee said he doesn't think she did, since they had to share the computer. However, that leaves some trial info unsourced, because Kathleen Murphy quoted something as being from Hae's diary that wasn't in her written diary. I'd have to look it up for more specifics, however, because I don't recall what it was.

Thanks for the good info! I do know that Hae didn't have pot in her system. Just thinking that she probably wouldn't have gotten high to pick up her cousin or show up high for work. But maybe for her & Don after work. JMO

I also agree a weed dealer wouldn't just strangle a buyer out of the blue for no reason. But in that group, Jay was the weed dealer. Just something I thought about.

The missing computer came from Susan Simpson who asked the 2 police departments about it. One dept. got it during the missing investigation & was thought to be given to the dept. that was investigating the murder investigation. The statement she read from them was something like, that they didn't have it & it wasn't in their evidence. Apparently, it was returned to Hae's family as you confirmed by her brother, but it never was recorded that it was released. I guess then that neither of them even examined the computer?

I don't know. It really bugs me that so much forensic evidence was never tested or partially tested.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

RSBM. You made a lot of interesting points. If I have time later I will try to address them. But this one is easy. Who gets strangled for attempting to buy weed? "She wanted to buy weed from me, so I strangled her," makes no sense as a motive.

And if a weed dealer were going to hurt someone for trying to buy from them, why strangulation? Strangulation is a forceful, intimate look-me-in-the-eyes kind of crime. Serial killers and intimate partner killers kill this way.

This is purely speculation on my part, but I think Hae may have tried to buy weed from someone who wasn't a mentally stable individual. That person (not Jay, but someone Jay knows) "put the moves" on Hae and was rejected, and just lost it. They may have been high, psychotic, or just taking out their rage towards someone else on Hae.

I don't think there is evidence of Don smoking weed - it was speculation on my part, again. I've read so much that I can't remember all of it, so I may have seen it somewhere that he did.

It's just ridiculous how much weirdness there is in this situation. The man who "found" the body is a known streaker, who literally was in court on indecent exposure charges within the past 6 months. The teacher at the school who may have been the last to see Hae is a convicted sex offender. Jay seems physically incapable of speaking without lying no matter what the subject is. Several investigators have been in trouble for improper behavior in investigations. The investigators didn't gather enough evidence, didn't properly control chain of command, and didn't thoroughly investigate the evidence they did have. The defense attorney was not only morally bankrupt but literally disintegrating physically and mentally while defending Adnan. She was disbarred and later nearly a quarter of a million dollars in claims were paid out by the Maryland Bar Association for her impropriety.

 

[Aleph]

. The teacher at the school who may have been the last to see Hae is a convicted sex offender.

RSBM. I hadn't heard this. Do you know where I can read more about this angle?



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[MzOpinion8d]

Her name is Inez Butler (this was revealed on Serial) and if you look for the Maryland Courts website and enter her name, you'll find the info.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

News:

http://cjbrownlawcom.c.presscdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Supp.-to-Mot.-to-Reopen-FINAL.pdf

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/08/24/5-key-finding-undisclosed-serial-adnan-syed

http://undisclosed-podcast.com/episodes/

1. Justin Brown, Adnan's defense attorney, has filed a supplement to his motion to reopen Adnan's case. He is providing a document from AT&T that clearly states incoming call data is unreliable. Since incoming call data is what the state based their case on, he's asking for this to be admitted as further proof of ineffective assistance of counsel, because Cristina Gutierrez had this document and didn't use it to disprove the state's case.

2. EW article on this filing as well as a few other items recently uncovered.

3. Latest Undisclosed podcast suggests there's a pretty good chance of a Brady violation because it appears Jay Wilds may have received a Crimestoppers reward of $3075 and the state didn't disclose it to the defense. At the least it would be a discovery violation but it is potentially a Brady violation as well.

Justin Brown filed the motion to reopen on June 30th. As of yesterday, the State hadn't responded, so the Court asked the State if they intended to respond. They said yes so the Court has set a deadline of Sept 8 to respond.

 

[delilah]

Hi all, I'm new to this string but I've been following this case on Serial, Undisclosed and Crime Writers On. Can I ask a really basic question that I've not seen answered anywhere? Why did Adnan say he gave Jay his cellphone on 13 Jan? I presume Jay must have had his own mobile. Adnan said he loaned Jay his car to get Stephanie a present, but why lend him the phone too?

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Hi all, I'm new to this string but I've been following this case on Serial, Undisclosed and Crime Writers On. Can I ask a really basic question that I've not seen answered anywhere? Why did Adnan say he gave Jay his cellphone on 13 Jan? I presume Jay must have had his own mobile. Adnan said he loaned Jay his car to get Stephanie a present, but why lend him the phone too?

He actually didn't actively loan Jay the phone, he just left it in the glove compartment because cell phones weren't allowed in school. Jay found it in there and decided to use it. This is verified trial testimony; one of the few things Jay has been consistent about.

 

[hellinor]

Hi all, I'm new to this string but I've been following this case on Serial, Undisclosed and Crime Writers On. Can I ask a really basic question that I've not seen answered anywhere? Why did Adnan say he gave Jay his cellphone on 13 Jan? I presume Jay must have had his own mobile. Adnan said he loaned Jay his car to get Stephanie a present, but why lend him the phone too?

Poster before me gives better answer


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[cujenn81]

The news that came out yesterday floored me when I heard about it, as well as the information revealed in the Undisclosed podcast regarding the Crimestoppers reward. The level of negligence (and, quite possibly, corruption) displayed by all parties involved in this case---his defense, the prosecution, and the investigators---is absolutely horrendous.

 

[mrssunshine]

What new evidence came out? It sounded like a huge stretch to assume Jay was the one who called crime stoppers. No proof. At all.
I think the Undisclosed podcast has been terrible, nothing like Serial and is totally biased towards Adnan. It seems like their entire defense is accusing every single player, except Adnan, of lying and corruption. It's getting ridiculous.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

What new evidence came out? It sounded like a huge stretch to assume Jay was the one who called crime stoppers. No proof. At all.
I think the Undisclosed podcast has been terrible, nothing like Serial and is totally biased towards Adnan. It seems like their entire defense is accusing every single player, except Adnan, of lying and corruption. It's getting ridiculous.

The "new" evidence isn't brand new, the info has been out for a while but a motion was filed using the evidence so it's new in that regard. It was the cover sheet from AT&T that specifically states incoming call data is not reliable. The State's case is wholly based upon Jay's testimony and 3 incoming calls. We all know Jay's testimony is questionable, and now there's solid proof that the incoming call data is completely useless. So yesterday Justin Brown filed a supplement to his motion to reopen the case using the AT&T cover sheet to support the motion.

As far as Jay and Crimestoppers, I don't think it's definitive by any means, but it sure is odd that there's Kelly Blue Book valuations printed out on the motorcycle, notes specifically indicating Mr Brown was talked to about the motorcycle, and notes from interviews with Jay that say "Reward" at the bottom. Why would that word even be mentioned if there wasn't some discussion of it?

When Serial was first released, so many people argued that if you looked at the "big picture" it was obvious Adnan was guilty. I never agreed with that, but if one looks at the "big picture" now, there are a lot of problems. The investigators and prosecutors (some of them) have been found to be involved in wrongdoing in other cases. There's pertinent evidence that was never tested. There are witnesses who were actively discouraged to testify.

The case was not fully investigated by any standard.

ETA that Undisclosed never was intended to be like Serial. It's paid for by the Adnan Syed Legal Defense Fund - there's no pretense that it's supposed to be completely impartial. Rabia has always thought Adnan was innocent. Susan wasn't sure at first but has come to believe he is innocent. And Colin is still looking to the evidence for the answers. I don't feel like they're accusing everyone of lying but it's pretty clear there are memory lapses and that the cops directed the answers in a lot of the interviews.