Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sept 2014 - #24

[frogwell]

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/william-b...hild-sexual-assault-case-20160907-grako8.html

William 'Bill' Spedding makes bid for stay on child sexual assault case

Crown prosecutor Craig Everson said the prosecution would rely on tendency evidence between the two alleged victims and other allegations not the subject of charges on the indictment.

Wouldn't the prosecution be relying on medical evidence and case notes from the 80's?


http://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/11. Tendency and Coincidence Evidence/tendency-evidence—s-97

11. Tendency and Coincidence Evidence

 

[bearbear]

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/william-b...hild-sexual-assault-case-20160907-grako8.html

William 'Bill' Spedding makes bid for stay on child sexual assault case

Crown prosecutor Craig Everson said the prosecution would rely on tendency evidence between the two alleged victims and other allegations not the subject of charges on the indictment.

Wouldn't the prosecution be relying on medical evidence and case notes from the 80's?


http://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/11. Tendency and Coincidence Evidence/tendency-evidence—s-97

11. Tendency and Coincidence Evidence

so was there evidence at the time bs had a tendency to act inappropriately around children ?

 

[frogwell]

so was there evidence at the time bs had a tendency to act inappropriately around children ?

It sounds like, the victims (who have medical evidence and historical case notes) and other victims?/ witnesses?/ parents?/ who have no evidence but may have come forward and made a statement to police about what they had been told, seen or experienced, and there may be a pattern to certain behaviours.? MOO

 

[ozazure]

I'm also confused as to why the placement of the 2 vehicles would pose such a red flag based on that they weren't in the driveway of whomever they were visiting... since it seems that often vehicles are parked on the side of the road, even though the properties and the driveways are large. For example.. even when days later it was reported in MSM that BS's white van was on the street.. it was parked on the street, and he was servicing that washing machine at the time, if I am not mistaken.. I believe he admitted that he was at the street and property on 2 dates only, those being the few days before the disappearance when he first came to look at the washing machine, and the few days after the disappearance when he actually came to repair it. It seems there could be many reasons for not parking in someone's driveway. I know with my own property, we have a very large driveway, but sometimes visitors park on the road.. which seems crazy, but in fact it is them being polite, not knowing whether they might ultimately be blocking someone else from getting into their regular spot in the driveway. Or say if someone has leaking oil from their vehicle, they might have enough consideration not to mess up someone else's driveway.

I agree, it is not a scenario that automatically screams "up to no good", but I'm thinking it might be more along the lines of no one being able to account for them being there nor it being a typical place visitors to the street park, just based on people's actual habits than any real underlying reasons for where people pak. Just notable enough that it caught more than the FM's eye perhaps and someone else recalls them there. A visitor to my neighbour caught my attention this week because of where they parked, had they parked where 99% of other people park I'd never have noticed them (large metallic sedan for the record, in between silver and gold and my memory is shocking!).

 

[WhiteLion^^]

It's a hinky case for a hinky crime. I have shared all your doubts. It's not just that DCI Jubelin has publicly cleared the family, it's the fact that senior politicians and Bravehearts are willing to stake their reputation on that statement and have done so now for over a year that leads me to believe, that is truly what they believe. IMO

Have to agree - I also thought this was possible initially (and that something had happened earlier than reported so that's why no-one 'saw anything' at 10.15am...and maybe the FP panicked not only because of being FPs but because FGM had had such a bad run emotionally in the past months (husband passing, illness in hospital) and maybe the FPs didn't want to burden her again with something so traumatic (as well as dealing with their own shock and dismay) but I agree that if the family referred to by police (FF) have been cleared, then they've been cleared. So I do not believe this theory.

 

[curious one]

I can imagine William's foster mum regrets having taken her eyes off William (for that short time to go in and make that cup of tea) haunts her to this day..... So so sad to even try to imagine how that would feel.

Yet this article said it was the FGM who made the cup of tea.

Nanna makes a cup of tea, and between 10am and 10.25am the two women sit outside as *William and his sister play chase in the *garden, which slopes down steeply, 70 metres or so, to the road. There’s no fence. At one point *William is seen hiding behind a celery wood tree, halfway down the garden. He has morphed from Spider-Man into Daddy Tiger and they smile as he makes growling noises, trying to frighten his sister.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...sh-into-thin-air/story-e6frg6z6-1227308929078


I have posted similar quotes to this previously - make me think they have CCTV footage.

The way Jubelin sees it, you open the door and you put him in the car. Perhaps your first thought is to return him to his parents. Certainly, if anyone saw you now, you could say you were driving him to the police station in Laurieton, 15 minutes away. Instead of knocking on doors, you head back out past the showground. No one *follows you. You cross the Camden Haven River and nobody notices young William with the seatbelt over him. You bypass the police station in Laurieton and you just keep driving. By the time William’s mother calls 000 you are 30km away. There are tens of thousands of hectares of dense bushland between you and Kendall. *William is strapped in beside you, dressed in his Spider-Man suit.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...sh-into-thin-air/story-e6frg6z6-1227308929078

In the same article

But, he told his friend Colin *Youngberry, he never went to Kendall that day and was with his wife in Laurieton attending a school function instead. Youngberry says Bill and *Margaret Spedding had a coffee afterwards and that Bill’s bank records show he was in Laurieton at the time William disappeared.

yet this says he had the coffee first, then to school.

Instead, at that “crucial time” when William went missing, the Speddings were sitting at the Buzz Cafe in Laurieton, 10km from Kendall, according to Mr Youngberry.

“They have got proof that they were at the cafe because he paid for the coffees by card,” he said.

Mr Spedding and his wife then attended a presentation across the road at Laurieton Primary School, where one of the grandchildren was receiving an award.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...d/news-story/52d80cfbee859664e04a5e75d2839136

 

[koios]

The argument that visitors to a house with a large parking area would use that parking area sounds sensible, only if one assumes there is no gate across the driveway entrance.
Most houses on this estate do not have driveway gates.
But the property with the wooden fence (directly behind the cars in the police photo-sketch) is an exception - it does have a wooden gate at the driveway entrance.
If the gate was closed that morning, then it would not be surprising if visitors parked at the roadside.

 

[Bohemian]

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/william-b...hild-sexual-assault-case-20160907-grako8.html

William 'Bill' Spedding makes bid for stay on child sexual assault case

Crown prosecutor Craig Everson said the prosecution would rely on tendency evidence between the two alleged victims and other allegations not the subject of charges on the indictment.

Wouldn't the prosecution be relying on medical evidence and case notes from the 80's?

http://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/11. Tendency and Coincidence Evidence/tendency-evidence—s-97

11. Tendency and Coincidence Evidence

so was there evidence at the time bs had a tendency to act inappropriately around children ?

It sounds like, the victims (who have medical evidence and historical case notes) and other victims?/ witnesses?/ parents?/ who have no evidence but may have come forward and made a statement to police about what they had been told, seen or experienced, and there may be a pattern to certain behaviours.? MOO

Recent case in point (R vs. Hughes)

Joinder or separation of trials

In the context of sexual offending, where there is more than one complainant, joining or separating the allegations of each complainant can be significant to the outcome of the trial.

We must be cautious of the evidence of one complainant giving credit to the evidence of another complainant solely because they are heard in the one trial.

The evidence of each complainant must be considered carefully on its own.

The essence of the judicial system is that each charge must be proven by the prosecution or the police to a standard of beyond reasonable doubt.

For a trial involving one complainant but many offences, it is a relatively clear process.

For example, if someone is charged with three counts of sexual assault against a victim on three separate occasions, the jury has to consider the evidence in relation to each occasion, and see if each alleged incident is proven beyond reasonable doubt.

If there is more than one complainant, that is, three people alleging sexual offending against them by the one defendant, the jury must be careful to still consider whether the evidence proves each charge and not to leap toward a conclusion of guilt solely because of the existence of one or more complainant.

Criminal defence lawyers strive hard to guard against juries spring-boarding toward the conclusion of guilt. It is the right of every accused to have each offence considered carefully by a jury.

A good example of this kind of thinking is if you are on the jury for a trial involving an assault by a man on his wife.

If you are told this person has a conviction record for assaulting previous female partners, you may leap to the conclusion: “Well, if he has assaulted one partner before, he is likely have assaulted his current partner.”

But this thought process is not fair to the defendant, who is entitled to have each of the charges proven in court.

His previous history ought to have no bearing on who he is now.

So when can trials be joined?

Trials can be joined when the prosecution wants to allege what is called ‘tendency and coincidence’ evidence.

The law in this area is incredibly complex.

Even the top criminal legal minds have difficulty deciphering the case law and applying it to defending or prosecuting cases.

Put broadly and simply, the prosecution can join the trials when it is alleged that there is a ‘striking similarity’ or ‘underlying unity’ to the evidence.

As discussed above, there must be extreme caution in saying because a person has acted in one way before they have a tendency to act in that way again.

An allegation of sexual assault on different children is not enough.

There must be an underlying theme or unity to the way in which the assaults took place.

For instance if the acts were all committed with a highly similar modus operandi, such as all occurring in a public toilet to children of the same age, this may suggest the acts were done by the one person and therefore the trials could be joined.

http://www.sydneycriminallawyers.co...rials-have-been-separated-in-the-hughes-case/

 

[Freddo Frog]

Oh yes, absolutely, but they are keeping that close to the vest...

The words of dear Colin I assume....


Police seized his telephone records and those of William’s grandmother as they have checked his statement that he had a missed call from the grandmother that morning and tried to call back but could not get through.

A friend of Mr Spedding’s said yesterday that police had questioned Mr Spedding about “why the phone calls were no longer in the call log on his mobile phone.”

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...l/news-story/a92dc8eaef8d7a48f25e7673fd7f2cf1

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

I would probably be the must suspect person if any of my family or friends go missing - I delete a lot of stuff off my phone and social media, often for no reason other than it's not relevant to me any more :thinking: I wouldn't think it out of the ordinary for people to do so, either, but in saying that, I have never been in a situation where I've been a suspect for anything more heinous than eating my kids' Easter Eggs (and I am always guilty as charged).

 

[crabstick]

Police have access to calls made through a Telstra server separate to his phone logs? Was it a matter of hot potato?

I have a feeling that other phones may have been used. Is mobile phone reception ok there?

If William was at the rear of the house, that is a 55 metre trip into the back of the house to get him from the kerb. William was playing hide and seek. The house has a under house void? What are the rooms under the house at the rear? If there is any?

Yeah, lots we don't know. Had the kids met repair man on a prior occasion? Already knew who they were. Keeping a Spiderman doll in your work car seems odd to me. Maybe it is legit.

In regards to BS, I think the relevance of missing phone logs, not being remembered by people he named the day WT disappeared etc. depends on the time he gave a 10 page statement to police. I always assumed those inquiries were made in the January, nearly 4 months after the event. You know what they say about assumptions. He may have been interviewed more discreetly at the house, when he went to repair the washing machine, as abduction was suspected and he had been at the house earlier in the week that WT vanished. He would also feature in the FGM and FM's statements about what had occurred prior to the disappearance. If the question marks around his alibi were known to police in the first couple of weeks of the investigation, then I get it. If they came up in the January, then I there are some logical explanations IMO.

 

[crabstick]

Why are we seeing cars consistently park on the kerb when the homes are set back some 50+ metres from the verge? Do these people go to work with the occupants of the home in a car pool scenario? But the cars are not desired down the drive?

Remember William went missing mid morning, say 9.45am, so who is on the street at 9.45am with or without a job? Most of us are at work.

An aerial view of a car parked across the road from the grandmother's house. This was captured on 19 September 2014.

 

[crabstick]

A washing machine man and a scrap guy were on the road at 9.45am. They are people in the neighbourhood in cars at 9.45am.

What if there were other cars? Where would they be stashed? 2 cars were to be scrapped but ended up at other peoples houses. Where would a grey car and a white car that have not been found be stored? At a mates house?

 

[ozazure]

Police have access to calls made through a Telstra server separate to his phone logs? Was it a matter of hot potato?

I have a feeling that other phones may have been used. Is mobile phone reception ok there?

If William was at the rear of the house, that is a 55 metre trip into the back of the house to get him from the kerb. William was playing hide and seek. The house has a under house void? What are the rooms under the house at the rear? If there is any?

Yeah, lots we don't know. Had the kids met repair man on a prior occasion? Already knew who they were. Keeping a Spiderman doll in your work car seems odd to me. Maybe it is legit.

I've mentioned this before so excuse me to people who've read it. When the FM spoke about how they were there for the first time since Grandad died and they were drawing pictures to take to the grave, I felt this could have caused a bit of confusion for a little tacker like William who didn't see his grandparents on a very regular basis and probably doesn't have a firm grasp on the permanence of death. Vague memories of an older man in that house, being told they are going to visit Grandad that day - if an older man approached him he may be less hesitant than normal, trying to make sense if this is Grandad or not. Could be even more confusing if they knew his name and greeted him warmly.

I remember that unsettling feeling visiting my mum's older relatives whom I saw a few times a year, sort of taking people's word that they were who they said they were, being hugged and picked up by almost strangers, a scenario I would most definitely been vocal about had it happened without warning in a shopping centre or something.

 

[SouthAussie]

In regards to BS, I think the relevance of missing phone logs, not being remembered by people he named the day WT disappeared etc. depends on the time he gave a 10 page statement to police. I always assumed those inquiries were made in the January, nearly 4 months after the event. You know what they say about assumptions. He may have been interviewed more discreetly at the house, when he went to repair the washing machine, as abduction was suspected and he had been at the house earlier in the week that WT vanished. He would also feature in the FGM and FM's statements about what had occurred prior to the disappearance. If the question marks around his alibi were known to police in the first couple of weeks of the investigation, then I get it. If they came up in the January, then I there are some logical explanations IMO.

BBM

It sounds as though Spedding's 10-page statement was probably taken by police well before January ... "soon after William went missing".
Then the police found inconsistencies, no doubt checked them out - grandma's phone activity, his phone activity and pings, witnesses at the assembly, staff and customers at Buzz Cafe, washing machine repair in Dunbogan at 2pm, check when the part for grandma's washing machine arrived, perhaps CCTV, whether he had or had not arranged to fix grandma's washing machine that day, whatever else we don't know about - then got a search warrant, then searched his home and business properties in mid-January.


"Mr Spedding took part in a 10-page recorded interview with detectives soon after little William went missing on the day the tradesman was due to fix the toddler’s grandmother’s washing machine.

As they checked out everyone’s statements about where they were on that Friday, detectives allegedly found some inconsistencies in what Mr Spedding told them which led them to raid his former pawnbroking office in Laurieton and his home at Bonny Hills this week."

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...n/news-story/47301cd52d7e0c838fcee97942f05b1a
January 22, 2015

 

[JLZ]

Recent case in point (R vs. Hughes)

Joinder or separation of trials

In the context of sexual offending, where there is more than one complainant, joining or separating the allegations of each complainant can be significant to the outcome of the trial.

We must be cautious of the evidence of one complainant giving credit to the evidence of another complainant solely because they are heard in the one trial.

The evidence of each complainant must be considered carefully on its own.

The essence of the judicial system is that each charge must be proven by the prosecution or the police to a standard of beyond reasonable doubt.

For a trial involving one complainant but many offences, it is a relatively clear process.

For example, if someone is charged with three counts of sexual assault against a victim on three separate occasions, the jury has to consider the evidence in relation to each occasion, and see if each alleged incident is proven beyond reasonable doubt.

If there is more than one complainant, that is, three people alleging sexual offending against them by the one defendant, the jury must be careful to still consider whether the evidence proves each charge and not to leap toward a conclusion of guilt solely because of the existence of one or more complainant.

Criminal defence lawyers strive hard to guard against juries spring-boarding toward the conclusion of guilt. It is the right of every accused to have each offence considered carefully by a jury.



So when can trials be joined?

Trials can be joined when the prosecution wants to allege what is called ‘tendency and coincidence’ evidence.

The law in this area is incredibly complex.

Even the top criminal legal minds have difficulty deciphering the case law and applying it to defending or prosecuting cases.

Put broadly and simply, the prosecution can join the trials when it is alleged that there is a ‘striking similarity’ or ‘underlying unity’ to the evidence.

As discussed above, there must be extreme caution in saying because a person has acted in one way before they have a tendency to act in that way again.

An allegation of sexual assault on different children is not enough.

There must be an underlying theme or unity to the way in which the assaults took place.



http://www.sydneycriminallawyers.co...rials-have-been-separated-in-the-hughes-case/

In my opinion--it is more likely that the tendency evidence is evidence of rape/sexual assault upon the complainant's sister, who is not participating as a complainant herself; rather than that there is an application to conjoin trials with different complainants.

 

[Warshawski]

I don't and I can't speak for other WSers, but no doubt Strike Force Rosann investigators would have compiled a list from multiple interviews and available data sources, eg; vehicle registrations, etc.

I agree Bo, IMO investigations would covered every imaginable vechicle in the area. . these apparently didn't get a 'match' in those checks, hence the reason for their outing, 12 mths later as I see it.

Det Jub gave them national television coverage (which transfers to international coverage these days) so whoever was responsible for, or had knowledge of those vehicles being there, has had plenty of opportunity to come forward. And for all I know, they may have done that. The location of TJ car may have come from that information.

BTW, Where is that white car now? Have the neighbours got it back? Has the wife who supposedly owned it, got it back? Why was it in neighbours yard in first place? Do we know the outcome of the examination of that car?

So yes, I too have questions over 'cars', however I do not think we are about to throw any new light on these particular vehicles, that hasn't already been collated by SFR. ..

As as far as I am concerned: This is a crack team. They don't make mistakes. They work stealthily, uncompromisingly and leave no stone unturned. They carefully plan every movement, every public appearance and every statement.

I do believe they know who is responsible, but in police work it's about getting that unequivocal & undeniable evidence that will lead to full answers and true justice. Look at what went on behind the public arena, to solve the mystery of poor little Daniel Morcombe and arrest that monster Brett Cowan.

So so with the posting of the Reward, and the strong warning that 'you must come to us' they are giving a last chance opportunity as I see it.

All the above my thoughts only..

 

[Makara]

In my opinion--it is more likely that the tendency evidence is evidence of rape/sexual assault upon the complainant's sister, who is not participating as a complainant herself; rather than that there is an application to conjoin trials with different complainants.

Thanks JLZ. That's also my opinion.

 

[frogwell]

A washing machine man and a scrap guy were on the road at 9.45am. They are people in the neighbourhood in cars at 9.45am.

What if there were other cars? Where would they be stashed? 2 cars were to be scrapped but ended up at other peoples houses. Where would a grey car and a white car that have not been found be stored? At a mates house?

With hiding things, I'm drawn to that saying, "Where do you hide a book? In a library". So with the cars, maybe a 2nd hand car sales lot? MOO

 

[SouthAussie]

I wonder what happened with this vehicle. (And what happened about the car part they were looking for in the forest.) With the time that this vehicle was seen leaving Benaroon Drive, you’d think it would be pretty important to locate.


"In addition, we have received reports of a four-wheel-drive vehicle driving out of Benaroon Drive around the time William vanished.
"This is of interest to us because we have also received information about a four-wheel-drive vehicle driving at speed in the Kendall area shortly after.
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/william-t...parked-a-yearlong-search-20150906-gjggm9.html


It sounds as if police think it could be the same vehicle in the reports they received, so you’d think they have more of a description than ‘a 4-wheel drive’. Like maybe a colour or something. I wonder why they didn’t elaborate?
They gave the colours of the other 3 vehicles.

 

[frogwell]

With hiding things, I'm drawn to that saying, "Where do you hide a book? In a library". So with the cars, maybe a 2nd hand car sales lot? MOO

But where did KL get her car from, 2 years ago? Was she offered it, greatly discounted from a friend or did she buy it online, etc? Now that I think about it, her reaction to the ACA interviewer telling her, that her car matched the description of one of the cars seen on Benaroon Dr. was odd. She may have been genuinely surprised, but then had a quick think and shut her mouth.