TRIAL - Ross Harris #1

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If he thought she was lying, I do think he should have been aggressive. W don't really know at the point why he chose to interview in this way. I'm interested to see his questioning regrading this interview.

**This is 100% JMO, but I think they suspect he was having an affair with someone at the daycare.

So obviously I have no idea if he was having an affair with someone at the daycare or not, but if he was, it would put his behavior (dropping by often, being really engaged, bringing breakfast, etc.) in an entirely different light.

I worked at a daycare in my younger days and it would never occur to any of us to ask parents to pick something up for us for breakfast. Or any other meal.

All jmo.


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Was Cooper asleep in the car when Ross took him to CFA? Is anyone questioning that? Why would Cooper fall asleep in just a few minutes from CFA to Ross's work? This doesn't add up to me.
 
" If the defense wants to maintain it as anything other than wild speculation (...)

That's not how it works.

The State says and must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that RH knew Cooper was in the car and meant to kill him. The defense's job is to provide that reasonable doubt. Core to providing reasonable doubt is providing the jury a plausible explanation as to how it could be that RH didn't know Cooper was in the car. Cooper being asleep is a plausible explanation why RH could have not been aware, during part or all of the 5 minute ride, that Cooper was still in the car.

RH providing that explanation to LE early on as a guess doesn't necessarily have anything to do with why the defense would use it, if they do, and their using it, if they do, isn't proof of any kind that RH knew Cooper was in the car.

As for falling asleep in 90 seconds. Everyone brings their own personal experience to evaluating that possibility. I have no problem believing it possible because my DS could and did routinely fall asleep that quickly in the car, and did so at least until he was 6, morning, midday, night... didn't make much difference (though heading to a party always ensured he'd stay awake ;) ).

In any case, again, it isn't necessary to believe Cooper fell all the way asleep in 30, 60,90 seconds. To believe RH did not intend to kill Cooper, what one has to believe is that RH forgot Cooper was still in the car/thought he'd been dropped off, whatever, in the 30 or 60 or 90 seconds it took to reach the intersection.

The shorter the time to the intersection , the easier it is to believe , actually, that Cooper was silent enough for RH to not be aware of him. Past the intersection, there were minutes more , 5 in total between CFA and work. Cooper quiet, Cooper drowsy, Cooper sound asleep by the time RH pulled into work is IMO a very plausible scenario.
 
In the Bond Hearing 7/3/14 Stoddard tell Pros Boring:

RH pulls into parking lot, passes parking space, backs up between 2 cars and pulls forward into a parking place. To right of car(passenger side) grassy area. To left (drivers side) a park car.

This is ss from the animated video Mr. Dustin David did. WITHOUT seeing Home Depot video.

This is odd, I always assumed he had backed into the parking spot. Is this accurate? (ss I mean)

animated video Home Depot.JPG
 
For the people who are saying Cooper wouldn't be visible above the back of the car seat....... How then did RH see him when he was changing lanes after he finished work? He said he saw him, drove up the road a bit, pulled in and started screaming as he removed Cooper from the car....

BINGO! Makes sense to me. I do not believe Cooper was asleep, I believe Ross left him on purpose! Yup, that is what I believe :gaah:
 
In the Bond Hearing 7/3/14 Stoddard tell Pros Boring:

RH pulls into parking lot, passes parking space, backs up between 2 cars and pulls forward into a parking place. To right of car(passenger side) grassy area. To left (drivers side) a park car.

This is ss from the animated video Mr. Dustin David did. WITHOUT seeing Home Depot video.

This is odd, I always assumed he had backed into the parking spot. Is this accurate? (ss I mean)

View attachment 103002


Do you have a link to the video? From just the SS, if what is depicted is accurate, Stoddard's description of how RH parked is impossible.
 
" If the defense wants to maintain it as anything other than wild speculation (...)

That's not how it works.

The State says and must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that RH knew Cooper was in the car and meant to kill him. The defense's job is to provide that reasonable doubt. Core to providing reasonable doubt is providing the jury a plausible explanation as to how it could be that RH didn't know Cooper was in the car. Cooper being asleep is a plausible explanation why RH could have not been aware, during part or all of the 5 minute ride, that Cooper was still in the car.

RH providing that explanation to LE early on as a guess doesn't necessarily have anything to do with why the defense would use it, if they do, and their using it, if they do, isn't proof of any kind that RH knew Cooper was in the car.

As for falling asleep in 90 seconds. Everyone brings their own personal experience to evaluating that possibility. I have no problem believing it possible because my DS could and did routinely fall asleep that quickly in the car, and did so at least until he was 6, morning, midday, night... didn't make much difference (though heading to a party always ensured he'd stay awake ;) ).

In any case, again, it isn't necessary to believe Cooper fell all the way asleep in 30, 60,90 seconds. To believe RH did not intend to kill Cooper, what one has to believe is that RH forgot Cooper was still in the car/thought he'd been dropped off, whatever, in the 30 or 60 or 90 seconds it took to reach the intersection.

The shorter the time to the intersection , the easier it is to believe , actually, that Cooper was silent enough for RH to not be aware of him. Past the intersection, there were minutes more , 5 in total between CFA and work. Cooper quiet, Cooper drowsy, Cooper sound asleep by the time RH pulled into work is IMO a very plausible scenario.

BBM

That's not entirely true. The defense team and/or defense witnesses can also introduce incriminating evidence. Of course, that's not the role of the DT, but it can and does happen. Great prosecutors make that happen. If the DT wants to argue that Ross knew Cooper was asleep in the car, that's enough for me to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that Ross knew Cooper was in the car. If Ross knew he was there, that's enough for malice murder IMO.
 
In the Bond Hearing 7/3/14 Stoddard tell Pros Boring:RH pulls into parking lot, passes parking space, backs up between 2 cars and pulls forward into a parking place. To right of car(passenger side) grassy area. To left (drivers side) a park car. This is ss from the animated video Mr. Dustin David did. WITHOUT seeing Home Depot video. This is odd, I always assumed he had backed into the parking spot. Is this accurate? (ss I mean)
attachment.php
I believe the screenshot to be accurate. There is an aerial map floating around that shows the exact spot where Ross parked.

ETA - Here is a link that shows the recreation. Look immediately under the "Suspicions and indictment" heading.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/12/us/justin-ross-harris-trial-explainer/
 
BBM

That's not entirely true. The defense team and/or defense witnesses can also introduce incriminating evidence. Of course, that's not the role of the DT, but it can and does happen. Great prosecutors make that happen. If the DT wants to argue that Ross knew Cooper was asleep in the car, that's enough for me to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that Ross knew Cooper was in the car. If Ross knew he was there, that's enough for malice murder IMO.

I would be shocked if the defense used his statement, at all. IMO it's too risky. It leaves the door wide open for the prosecutor to tear it apart.

-A child being asleep for under 5 minutes not a reasonable explanation for forgetting them
-Ross immediately trying to justify forgetting Cooper just looks bad
-Trying to convince a jury that a visibly awake toddler who just ate, would fall asleep that fast...will be very hard
-It allows more time for the jury to hear about how fast he forgot about Cooper. This time period would be dissected yet again, which the defense doesn't want IMO
-The car seat talk will happen again. I would expect the prosecution to try and counter that the too small seat would be uncomfortable to sleep in. Reminding the jury of the bad choice he already made in putting him in an unsafe seat.
-It stinks of desperation (IMO.) I mean, I think it's a stupid justification and so would the jury.

There are many more reasons why using falling asleep is risky. I just don't see them doing it.
 
Tilt all way compressed View attachment 102875

Tilt all way extendedView attachment 102876

Tilt as it was in the vehicle 6/18/14 ss from video at Crime Shed by CSI Grimstead View attachment 102877

Body weight: 21 pounds, 5.4 ounces from autopsy report https://www.karasoncrime.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Medical-Examiners-Report-Cooper-Harris.pdf

Car Seat weight on back was 22 - 30 pounds. Testimony from Grimstead 10/12/16

from bottom of car seat where "rump is to top of car seat inside measurement 19 1/4" -- 1 foot 7 1/4 inches is what Grimstead testified his measurements were

Cooper from Crown-rump length: 14"


View attachment 102879

View attachment 102881

link took ss from Wild about Trials and the exact video and time stamp are on ss.

Per guidelines weight and height (has to be from bottom sitting in seat to head at top- only way that the head would go above the top), Cooper does not exceed the weight (was testified to weight and also showed back of actual car seat in court 10/12/14) Opinion is one thing but this is factual.

:pullhair: :furious:
At Bond Hearing 7/3/1014
Stoddard testified on direct RH told him that he buckled Cooper tightly into car seat at CF, stated that had researched guidelings and was the proper car seat for son.
Boring: Do you know Cooper height and weight?
Stoddard Yes, owners manual stated Cooper exceeded the height by several inches

Boring: did you use an aide
Stoddard: yes, put a doll in the car seat. Head of doll clearly visible when looking to the right side. Doll was actually shorter than Cooper
Boring: was hair same as Cooper
Stoddard: no

NOW, this was the day AFTER CSI Grimstead put the car seat back into the car on 7/2/14 and did not per his own cross exam testimony 10/12/16 check the measurements correctly against the 6/18/14 measurements. The bottom TILT was was open and made the car seat in the 7/2/14 photos lean back more into between the seats. A total different angle than it was on 6/18/2014.

Also Stoddard testified when Boing asked how RH said this could have happened
Stoddard: "Defendant excuse was he fell asleep" 14:00 mark on Bond Hearing.

ALSO Stoddard said at lunch went to Publix, UPS Store and to Home Depot. :thinking:
He sure does not recall much when asked. And he still doesnt know that James Hawkins is who did CPR on Cooper not "Anthony" (hears him testify to that couple times both Anthony and UPS Store)
JMHO from listening to trial and hearings
 
People "walking by his SUV right after he parked" is not what I said. I said "people walked close enough by his car in the AM," and I added "IiRC" because I do that when I'm not sure if I am remembering correctly, hence the "IF."

But yes, IIRC, that was the point LE was making when they seemingly misinterpreted what was on surveillance tape, saying RH appeared concerned because folk or folks were walking towards (or near? ) his car.

And, aside from what has been stated or testified to or mis-stated, and just as an IMO, morning as in a period of time during which if Cooper woke up, if asleep, and found himself alone in the car, what defies belief IMO is that he would stayed quiet and still enough to not have been noticed or heard by anyone walking anywhere near that car.

With respect, this is what you said:

ETA, perhaps all the more so because iirc, folks did walk close enough to RH's car in the AM to be able to hear a wide awake toddler whose father was no where in sight.

But yes, I see now that you recalled incorrectly. Thanks for clearing that up. It was during lunch hour when there were people near the SUV. And sadly, by then it's unlikely Cooper would still have been crying. :(
 
Do you have a link to the video? From just the SS, if what is depicted is accurate, Stoddard's description of how RH parked is impossible.

Yes the ss is from Pretrial Motions Aug 19, 2016 [video=youtube;5kPpkgvuiYo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kPpkgvuiYo&list=PLoW1SIeAWaWbf04BP39GOR3AoF3_lKX-3&index=6[/video] The guy Mr. David Dustin made these. << Testified that he had only seen 1 photo prior to the morning of Aug 19 2016 hearing and it was attached in his report all other info came from Stoddard, but that morning DA showed him some other. Stoddard said that not true that he had showed D Dustin photos but not let him keep them. Dustin didn't know about the measurements in car. (Only after the witness had left the courtroom, and Stoddard had been in there to hear his testimony. JMHO I thought it very interesting that IF that was Stoddard with yellow tie on behind the State, today, that was pretty dang bold and made my hinky meter go bonkers... he has not been there every day that I can tell. JMHO

The description that I posted from Stoddard was from the Bond Hearing 7/3/2014. That what I am thinking.

Also. IF your driving and your going to turn LEFT, you will look out to the RIGHT out windshield and or passenger window, my focus would be looking straight through those windows not behind me. JMHO . No need to turn around. NOW if your going to change into the RIGHT LANE (move over, I personally do turn back and look even though I look through my passenger mirror, habit)
 
BBM

That's not entirely true. The defense team and/or defense witnesses can also introduce incriminating evidence. Of course, that's not the role of the DT, but it can and does happen. Great prosecutors make that happen. If the DT wants to argue that Ross knew Cooper was asleep in the car, that's enough for me to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that Ross knew Cooper was in the car. If Ross knew he was there, that's enough for malice murder IMO.


Peach- mine was a Cliff notes version of the DT's job. I have no concern that the DT, especially Kilgore, is in any danger of being outmatched, outwitted, or out-lawyered by the State's team, and especially not by what's his name. :D

Of course the defense can't and wouldn't argue that Ross Harris KNEW Cooper was asleep, for the very reason you're saying. Can't know Cooper is asleep if he doesn't know Cooper is in the car.

One possible presentation by the DT: "RH was as baffled as everyone else how it could be that he forgot Cooper was in the car. Our experts have explained to how it was medically/psychologically/ blah blah possible, in the seconds between breakfast and that intersection, for RH to have believed he had already dropped Cooper off.

The question that will always haunt RH is-- how was it possible, AFTER he made that unconscious assumption, and as he drove on for 3 or 4 minutes more, how it could be that he wasn't aware of Cooper in the car?

We'll never know for certain, because the tragic reality is that Harris did NOT know Cooper was in the car until it was too late, but RH's initial answer to how that might be is likely correct- that Cooper had fallen asleep...(supported by Leanne testifying Cooper often did fall asleep that quickly, etc etc).
 
Blue- I'm remembering incorrectly the State's assertion that RH in the AM, not after lunch, walked with phone in hand, but turned around, seemed concerned, that someone was walking towards or near his car?

My apologies if that is the case, and thank YOU for pointing out that I misremembered. The accuracy of factual information being discussed matters.
 
I believe the screenshot to be accurate. There is an aerial map floating around that shows the exact spot where Ross parked.

ETA - Here is a link that shows the recreation. Look immediately under the "Suspicions and indictment" heading.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/12/us/justin-ross-harris-trial-explainer/

From your link. I know from testimony that CSI Shumpert went to Treehouse and processed RH wife vehicle. But RH vehicle should have went from crime scene straight to the Crime Scene Shed per testimony. JMHO Whose vehicle is this? In the Aug 2016 Pretrial Motion hearing, Mr. Dennis said when they scanned the parking lot 7/2 & 7/4/2014 no other vehicles were there but was still roped off and had cones. They never took a vehicle out there.

Home Depot parking lot RH suv.JPG
 
Do you have a link to the video? From just the SS, if what is depicted is accurate, Stoddard's description of how RH parked is impossible.

Probable Cause Hearing July 2, 2014 (Day after Grimstead took the photo with doll in car seat) [video=youtube;5EjrJZ-a5OQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EjrJZ-a5OQ&index=1&list=PLoW1SIeAWaWZPZIYM4Fs-xOzJE5GtLXig[/video]
 
It's not a strategy if it's the truth, and the truth may well be just what it appears on its face to be--Ross Harris, immediately after his son died because he was left in a hot car, was trying to figure out how in the world he could have not known Cooper was in the car, and reached for the explanation Cooper must have been asleep, because it is IMO an entirely logical conclusion to reach, especially if his forgetting was because of a mentally checked off certainty Cooper had been dropped off at daycare.


ETA. Magnolia-- I read yr reply after laboring for minutes on mine. I envy your ability to express your thoughts so succinctly. :)

To be honest, and not meaning to be snarky. After hearing all I have from Stoddard himself and all the testimony under oath and from their prior reports or lack of... LT now Captain Ferrel did not right a flipping report for a YEAR, and the others like Gallimore who also had the sudden memory in court and Grimstead making his supplemental iirc report after chatting it up at the Crimes Against People office what Aug 2015? I don't know that I believe anything that came out of his mouth. That Bond Hearing is why so much wrong information was out to begin with.

Pretty rich that Stoddard said to Kilgore that RH could not have "forgotten" 2 things in one day (leaving Cooper in car & telling them about going to Home Depot)too many coincidences, Kilgore asked how many times would be too many :silly: and yet Stoddard in all the Hearings " I do not recall or I do not know"

I have no idea why the child was left in the car. I so far do not believe it was on purpose from testimony so far. But I do think that Stoddard coming from Crimes against Children prior to Crimes against Persons. and a huge chip on his shoulder and smug individual who should as Lead Det know all there is up to the minute. He even testified that he didnt think he had read David Dustin report! Give me a break

I can not wait til he is on the stand and lol I hope the Def brings him back for their part of the trial lol
 
AKMimi- thanks for the video links. What I was asking though, is if there is a link to a video recreating how RH parked that day, of which the SS was just a still? But it seems as if only that still was created, or at least, that's all that has been made public? Is that accurate?
 
I think I've only commented here once or twice, not since the trial started but followed along with you all since the beginning.
During a probable cause hearing on Thursday, Cobb County Police Detective Phil Stoddard testified that the boy was 'several inches' too big for the child seat, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported.
He added that the parents had bought a new, forward-facing child seat just six weeks ago but they switched back to his old seat for reasons that are not yet clear.
I'm afraid I don't buy into any of RH's story. His day starts with routine, based around Cooper and himself. Even when late, he has a routine (in the main). Not that day. I have big problems with him not noticing Cooper when getting into the car; a) odour - there's no doubt in my mind there would be an odour of some description, particularly in relation to heat, humidity, body waste, time and Coopers' size - which could be relevant re decomp. I won't go on about that now.

b) A huge red flag for me (and a possible indicator the seat was too small for Cooper) is his legs. We see how they're splayed and risen in the cs photo. They would be visible 'overhanging' the car seat at an angle. In the height of fear and distress, toddlers are more likely to straighten out, kick out. Cooper would instinctively use his legs and feet to push off the back seat for leverage to try and escape his situation. His little legs could've fallen to the sides in exhaustion of course, but given the feet to back-seat distance, if room, I would imagine rigid fear would keep him pushing back, until the end of whatever finally took him. I'm sorry. :( Lord knows the torment of this toddler.
Are we to believe RH didn't see any sign of this either? Not a glance, didn't sense him, nothing. When he arrives late for work he sits for 30 seconds or so while Cooper's in the car. Yet on leaving work early, he gets in and takes off immediately for a meet with mates he's informed he'll be late for. It just doesn't compute.

This also bothers me, and I wonder when (if) it'll come into play in the trial. Cooper would have died no matter which seat it was. bbm If proven, there can only be one explanation for it (unless faulty and had been sent back to the manufacturer ....) RH did not want to see his face. 'Dreaded' it, even.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2683625/.html

From what I understand from Hearing, they switched the car seats because LH had went on a trip to Alabama, and had not swapped them back. Forward facing was orig in RH car. IF I understood testimony. JMHO And at time they switched if 2 weeks prior would make that 2 weeks ago make sense of some things.
 
JMHO this will be the what the Defense is going to use in their case. I think they have done very well on cross so far. JMHO

Defense Expert Dr. David Diamond

Theorizing on the Neurobiology of “Forgotten Baby Syndrome” http://psychology.usf.edu/faculty/data/ddiamond/baby-sy.pdf

*Ton of case references on the PDF

One aspect of my research program is the study of how different brain memory
systems appear to cooperate, as well as to compete against each other. Two brain
structures, the hippocampus (HC) and prefrontal cortex (PFC), work together to
optimize decision-making and multi-tasking, and to form and retrieve new memories.
Two other brain structures, the basal ganglia (BG) and amygdala, can interfere with the
functioning of the HC-PFC memory system. The BG controls habit-based behaviors and
the amygdala controls emotional memory processing. In the following I provide two
conditions in which the HC-PFC, BG and amygdala interact to cause memory failures,
with potentially tragic outcomes. The failure to remember that a child is in one’s car,
which can have a tragic outcome, is referred to as “Forgotten Baby Syndrome”.
Condition 1: The BG can suppress the functioning of the HC-PFC. In a situation
which is considered predictable and safe, as when a person is performing a routine
activity such as driving a car to work, the BG can dominate the HC-PFC memory system.
The BG enables automated behaviors (habits) to occur with minimal mental effort.
When the BG dominates memory processing, a person is less likely to interrupt habitbased
behaviors to do something that is consciously planned. A benign example of BG
domination over the HC-PFC system is when a person forgets to stop at a store to pick
up groceries on the way home from work; the BG (habit-based memory system)
suppresses the HC-PFC system from interrupting the drive home to stop at the store. A
similar, but tragic, example of BG dominance over the HC-PFC system is when a parent
drives to work, and in the process forgets to drop off a child at daycare. Our hypothesis
is that parents forget to stop at the daycare because bringing the child to daycare either
is not a part of the parent’s daily routine, or the parent inconsistently takes the child to
daycare. On the day in which the parent forgets the child, the BG memory system has
dominated control over the HC-PFC memory system, thereby causing the parent to
drive straight from home to work. In the process of BG memory system dominance, the
parent loses awareness of the sleeping (quiet) child in the back seat of the car.
Condition 2: The amygdala is activated under high stress conditions, thereby
enabling a person to remember a stress-provoking event very well. When the amygdala
is activated it has two effects on brain memory systems. First, it interferes with the
functioning of the HC-PFC system. The amygdala-driven suppression of the HC-PFC
can result in an individual becoming completely focused on a stressful event, causing
him or her to lose track of other information which was held in memory by the HC-PFC
system. This loss of memory may involve a relatively benign situation, such as a stressful
event causing someone to forget where he or she parked their car. A comparable, but
tragic, example of a stress-induced memory impairment is when a parent becomes so
preoccupied with a stressful event during a drive to work that he or she forgets that a
child is in the back seat of the car; the child is left in the car, resulting in death caused by
hyperthermia. Second, activation of the amygdala, and/or sleep deprivation, enhances
the functioning of the BG (habit-based) memory system. This enhancement of the BG
enables subconscious habit-based memories to be expressed efficiently in times of
stress. Thus, a stressed person is able to efficiently drive to work while focusing on a
stressful event, but in the process, the suppression of the HC-PFC system interferes with
the recollection of new information, and the person’s awareness of the child is lost
 
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