TRIAL - Ross Harris #1

[arkansasmimi]

If RH forgot Cooper was in the car until he peeled into that parking lot 7 hours later, then the reality is that absolutely no one, including Ross Harris, can be "certain" about whether or not Cooper was asleep. Not RH, not the defense, and not the State.

There's nothing unique whatsoever about all parties at trial other than the defendant (and in this case , perhaps even the defendant) not knowing for certain or even at all about particulars of a crime or contextual points, etc.

The defense will of course present a narrative, and Cooper asleep in the car is IMO a compelling narrative because it provides a plausible explanation for why RH wasn't aware of Cooper. I don't understand at all why you'd make a leap to premeditation if RH's attorneys provide this explanation in their defense.

But has anyone heard RH state that? That Cooper fell asleep? So far I only heard Stoddard testify that RH told him that. .. Stoddard also told Murphy not complete truths too on SW didn't he?

 

[arkansasmimi]

" If the defense wants to maintain it as anything other than wild speculation (...)

That's not how it works.

The State says and must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that RH knew Cooper was in the car and meant to kill him. The defense's job is to provide that reasonable doubt. Core to providing reasonable doubt is providing the jury a plausible explanation as to how it could be that RH didn't know Cooper was in the car. Cooper being asleep is a plausible explanation why RH could have not been aware, during part or all of the 5 minute ride, that Cooper was still in the car.

RH providing that explanation to LE early on as a guess doesn't necessarily have anything to do with why the defense would use it, if they do, and their using it, if they do, isn't proof of any kind that RH knew Cooper was in the car.

As for falling asleep in 90 seconds. Everyone brings their own personal experience to evaluating that possibility. I have no problem believing it possible because my DS could and did routinely fall asleep that quickly in the car, and did so at least until he was 6, morning, midday, night... didn't make much difference (though heading to a party always ensured he'd stay awake ).

In any case, again, it isn't necessary to believe Cooper fell all the way asleep in 30, 60,90 seconds. To believe RH did not intend to kill Cooper, what one has to believe is that RH forgot Cooper was still in the car/thought he'd been dropped off, whatever, in the 30 or 60 or 90 seconds it took to reach the intersection.

The shorter the time to the intersection , the easier it is to believe , actually, that Cooper was silent enough for RH to not be aware of him. Past the intersection, there were minutes more , 5 in total between CFA and work. Cooper quiet, Cooper drowsy, Cooper sound asleep by the time RH pulled into work is IMO a very plausible scenario.

JMHO at least I dont know but he could have had the radio on in the car too. Caught up in what going on - music, drive time morning radio ad I have prior, many times I have sat in my car to finish hearing a song or what the DJ was saying.. could been what was doing that 30 sec in parking lot too. JMHO

 

[arkansasmimi]

Blue- I'm remembering incorrectly the State's assertion that RH in the AM, not after lunch, walked with phone in hand, but turned around, seemed concerned, that someone was walking towards or near his car?

My apologies if that is the case, and thank YOU for pointing out that I misremembered. The accuracy of factual information being discussed matters.

Stoddard said that after lunch as he was walking into the building is when someone was walking past him and in direction of RH car and that RH stopped then started walking again and got on his phone. That testimony was at the 7/3/2014 Bond Hearing. Just listened to it earlier.

 

[arkansasmimi]

AKMimi- thanks for the video links. What I was asking though, is if there is a link to a video recreating how RH parked that day, of which the SS was just a still? But it seems as if only that still was created, or at least, that's all that has been made public? Is that accurate?

No I took that ss from the video that David Dustin made. From info given to him and scans of Home Depot parking lot 7/2/14 & 7/4/14, the suv, the crime scene area. They were the subject of one of the Def Motions heard at that Pretrial Motions Hearing Aug 19, 2016. GA Peach recommended that one to me to watch. It on a couple different videos to hear all of the hearing. They show the actual 3D video that the Judge ultimately allowed to be shown at trial.

LOL Kilgore said "I strongly encourage the court not to go down this road" <<< was about the Jury viewing the car. But lol also kinda meant the same about this video. It was done after the measurements, videos, still photos done. They had not bought the Faro software yet. But DDustin did not use any of that evidence in making his 3D video. Got all the info from ....
:drumroll: Stoddard!

NOW, Grimstead has testified that he didn't measure correctly 7/2/2014 :silly: and many times in that Aug 19, 2016 Kilgore kept saying to DDustin... IF STODDARDS MEASUREMENTS ARE CORRECT YOUR GOLD BUT IF NOW WELL.... AND DAVID DUSTIN SAID FAIR STATEMENT. ... Well now we know that Stoddards were not if he used the car seat like it was left in the car per Grimstead on 7/2/2014 day prior to Bond hearing!

 

[arkansasmimi]

Quote Originally Posted by Hope4More View Post
People "walking by his SUV right after he parked" is not what I said. I said "people walked close enough by his car in the AM," and I added "IiRC" because I do that when I'm not sure if I am remembering correctly, hence the "IF."

But yes, IIRC, that was the point LE was making when they seemingly misinterpreted what was on surveillance tape, saying RH appeared concerned because folk or folks were walking towards (or near? ) his car.

And, aside from what has been stated or testified to or mis-stated, and just as an IMO, morning as in a period of time during which Cooper woke up, if asleep, and found himself alone in the car, what defies belief IMO is that he would stayed quiet and still enough to not have been noticed or heard by anyone walking anywhere near that car

There wasn't going to be many people walking around the parking lot at that time, IMO. Ross got to work late, most people would have been there and working already. By the time many people would have just been walking around the parking lot (lunch time) Cooper would have already been dead.

In one of the Hearings or possible it was Def Opening Statements but I thought I heard that people were on the Home Depot parking lot video walking at lunch (as in exercise maybe?)

And in the 7/2/2014 Bond Hearing Stoddard did testify that RH walking back to building after tossing the lightbulbs into car, walked, then another person was walking opposite direction going towards RH car, and made it sound like RH was concerned about it, then as person continued to go RH got on phone and went on into building.

Def says that RH was walking and that he was on his cellphone as in texting stop text walk text and then continue on. I am anxious to see the video. JMHO

 

[arkansasmimi]

Quote Originally Posted by Hope4More View Post
People "walking by his SUV right after he parked" is not what I said. I said "people walked close enough by his car in the AM," and I added "IiRC" because I do that when I'm not sure if I am remembering correctly, hence the "IF."

But yes, IIRC, that was the point LE was making when they seemingly misinterpreted what was on surveillance tape, saying RH appeared concerned because folk or folks were walking towards (or near? ) his car.

And, aside from what has been stated or testified to or mis-stated, and just as an IMO, morning as in a period of time during which Cooper woke up, if asleep, and found himself alone in the car, what defies belief IMO is that he would stayed quiet and still enough to not have been noticed or heard by anyone walking anywhere near that car

Quote Originally Posted by blue22 View Post
There wasn't going to be many people walking around the parking lot at that time, IMO. Ross got to work late, most people would have been there and working already. By the time many people would have just been walking around the parking lot (lunch time) Cooper would have already been dead.

In one of the Hearings or possible it was Def Opening Statements but I thought I heard that people were on the Home Depot parking lot video walking at lunch (as in exercise maybe?)

And in the 7/2/2014 Bond Hearing Stoddard did testify that RH walking back to building after tossing the lightbulbs into car, walked, then another person was walking opposite direction going towards RH car, and made it sound like RH was concerned about it, then as person continued to go RH got on phone and went on into building.

Def says that RH was walking and that he was on his cellphone as in texting stop text walk text and then continue on. I am anxious to see the video. JMHO

Respectfully bbm,
We will all have to wait til the Home Depot parking lot is played in court, but in Defense Opening Statements (which is not evidence, but SO far has been right on money what testimony would show)
Begin at 53:00 mark speaks about the video...

at 55:00 mark Kilgore says : "5 minutes after Ross got out of his car that morning, a lady walks by the back window past the passenger window"
[video=youtube;nvVQIC1kfhI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvVQIC1kfhI[/video]

 

[DeDee]

I believe the screenshot to be accurate. There is an aerial map floating around that shows the exact spot where Ross parked.

ETA - Here is a link that shows the recreation. Look immediately under the "Suspicions and indictment" heading.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/12/us/justin-ross-harris-trial-explainer/

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/12/us/justin-ross-harris-trial-explainer/

That's a great link to vids and other data, GA Peach. TY

"Investigators found Harris made online searches in the days before Cooper's death related directly to babies in hot cars, and one search for "how to survive prison.

Now, why would Ross be interested in reading about "how to survive prison"? Things that make ya go hmm.....

 

[leelee114]

I think I've only commented here once or twice, not since the trial started but followed along with you all since the beginning.

I'm afraid I don't buy into any of RH's story. His day starts with routine, based around Cooper and himself. Even when late, he has a routine (in the main). Not that day. I have big problems with him not noticing Cooper when getting into the car; a) odour - there's no doubt in my mind there would be an odour of some description, particularly in relation to heat, humidity, body waste, time and Coopers' size - which could be relevant re decomp. I won't go on about that now.

b) A huge red flag for me (and a possible indicator the seat was too small for Cooper) is his legs. We see how they're splayed and risen in the cs photo. They would be visible 'overhanging' the car seat at an angle. In the height of fear and distress, toddlers are more likely to straighten out, kick out. Cooper would instinctively use his legs and feet to push off the back seat for leverage to try and escape his situation. His little legs could've fallen to the sides in exhaustion of course, but given the feet to back-seat distance, if room, I would imagine rigid fear would keep him pushing back, until the end of whatever finally took him. I'm sorry. Lord knows the torment of this toddler.
Are we to believe RH didn't see any sign of this either? Not a glance, didn't sense him, nothing. When he arrives late for work he sits for 30 seconds or so while Cooper's in the car. Yet on leaving work early, he gets in and takes off immediately for a meet with mates he's informed he'll be late for. It just doesn't compute.

This also bothers me, and I wonder when (if) it'll come into play in the trial. Cooper would have died no matter which seat it was. bbm If proven, there can only be one explanation for it (unless faulty and had been sent back to the manufacturer ....) RH did not want to see his face. 'Dreaded' it, even.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2683625/.html

This is anecdotal but one thing that leads me to think Cooper didn't fall asleep is that he was now back into a rear facing seat. At his age where he is now becoming more of a little person learning to talk as opposed to a baby with limited communication skills I can't help but think he would be displeased at the visual deprivation that comes with facing the rear combined with being so tightly strapped in.
I say this because my sister and I both had children (two months apart) who were ready to be forward facing but our mother hadn't yet made the switch in her car seat. Our two babies are very different in temperament but when they suddenly were back to rear facing they screamed bloody murder the entire time. When I heard that my nephew had a meltdown I assumed it was just his difficult temperament . So I was shocked when my daughter who was a very calm baby who easily fell asleep in the car absolutely lost it once she was rear facing again, She was kicking and screaming so much and causing herself so much distress that six minutes into the drive I had my mother pull over so that I could sit in the back with her. Once I did that she calmed down. When it came time to put her back in for the drive back she lost it again while I was strapping her in so once again I had to sit with her. My moms nerves were so frazzled from dealing with both kids losing that we actually stopped and got a new car seat on the way home.

 

[arkansasmimi]

I believe the screenshot to be accurate. There is an aerial map floating around that shows the exact spot where Ross parked.

ETA - Here is a link that shows the recreation. Look immediately under the "Suspicions and indictment" heading.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/12/us/justin-ross-harris-trial-explainer/

Ok I think I got it now. Thanks GA Peach for your help!!! Here is an aerial view of Home Depot parking lot. States Exhibit that the Def used in his Opening Statements. <Which are not evidence but he alludes to people walking at lunch time around the loop area. Per Kilgore, RH drove around back, circles around passes a parking spot, then backs up between cars (which are on the wood line) and pulls forward to where he parked. passenger side grassy area, drivers side parked car (reminds them that what State said day before) from Fox5 News Opening Statements

 

[U2forever]

This is anecdotal but one thing that leads me to think Cooper didn't fall asleep is that he was now back into a rear facing seat. At his age where he is now becoming more of a little person learning to talk as opposed to a baby with limited communication skills I can't help but think he would be displeased at the visual deprivation that comes with facing the rear combined with being so tightly strapped in.
I say this because my sister and I both had children (two months apart) who were ready to be forward facing but our mother hadn't yet made the switch in her car seat. Our two babies are very different in temperament but when they suddenly were back to rear facing they screamed bloody murder the entire time. When I heard that my nephew had a meltdown I assumed it was just his difficult temperament . So I was shocked when my daughter who was a very calm baby who easily fell asleep in the car absolutely lost it once she was rear facing again, She was kicking and screaming so much and causing herself so much distress that six minutes into the drive I had my mother pull over so that I could sit in the back with her. Once I did that she calmed down. When it came time to put her back in for the drive back she lost it again while I was strapping her in so once again I had to sit with her. My moms nerves were so frazzled from dealing with both kids losing that we actually stopped and got a new car seat on the way home.

Leelee, thank you for posting about your experience with this subject. I was wondering to myself how in the world did he manage to fit cooper in that seat at the lowest infant setting, I know he had to be in pain and what about restricting his chest with the low and tight straps?
My son is 30 and his car seat took him from an infant till he grew out of it and into a booster seat. I had a daughter in 1999 but unfortunately not past 4 so cannot remember much about her car seat except that there was no way I would have strapped her or my son in a seat that was so small due to the constrictions of the straps which I consider torture along with his poor little legs.

Heartbreaking

 

[Maisiebelle]

at 55:00 mark Kilgore says : "5 minutes after Ross got out of his car that morning, a lady walks by the back window past the passenger window"

Didn't RH have tinted rear windows? Or did I just make that up?!

 

[Maisiebelle]

No I didn't make it up. So even if people were walking past the car it's unlikely they would have seen Cooper.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JerseyGirl]

going back to the phone call issue, here's some info:


I'll transcribe the exact testimony that I am referring too:

Prosecutor: When the defendant actually separated himself from his child and got on the phone, did he appear to be per the witnesses, talking on the phone?

Stoddard: Yes.

Prosecutor: Did you talk to officers who actually encountered him?

Stoddard: Yes I did.

Prosecutor: What did they say he was doing on the phone?

Stoddard: He stated that he was telling someone on the phone that his child had died.

Prosecutor: Now, when you spoke to the defendant, what did he say about actually speaking to somebody on the phone?

Stoddard: He stated that he had not gotten anybody on the phone.

Prosecutor: Have you reviewed preliminarily his phone logs?

Stoddard: Yes I have.

Prosecutor: What did those reflect?

Stoddard: They reflected three phone calls.

Prosecutor: What was the first?

Stoddard: First phone call was to Leanna. Um. It looked like it was a missed phone call. The second phone call was to Home Depot Corporate Center. Um. Their main number. Um and there was a third phone number and it was the same one, it was to The Home Depot Corporate Center. And it appeared that this phone number went through and on his records it said six minutes worth of conversation.

Prosecutor: Were you able to track back where that would have gone too? This call to The Home Depot Center?

Stoddard. We did.

Prosecutor: Okay, and where would that have been?

Stoddard: It went back to Toddler Room Five at Little Aprons Academy where Cooper attended school.

Prosecutor: So you have phone records suggesting that he was on the phone for five or six minutes...

Stoddard : Correct.

Prosecutor: You have the officers stating that he was actually talking to somebody on the phone.

Stoddard: Correct

Prosecutor: Did you confront him with this when he said that he actually was not talking to anybody?

Stoddard: I did.

Prosecutor: And what did he say?

Stoddard: He said he wasn't talking to anybody on the phone.

Minutes 12:00 to 13:50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-tiBT_0nNg




the above was taken from this thread: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...led-to-talk-to-anyone&p=10749244#post10749244

 

[rob]

My question- If you have found your dead child in his car seat, why are you calling the daycare? To ask if he is there? To ask if you put him back in the car? To ask what to do now?
Why on earth would you call the daycare? You didn't even call 911 yourself. I can see calling the wife, but not work (calling in for tomorrow?) or the daycare, UNLESS there is someone there that you have a relationship with, and it's certainly not like RH is not playing the game and looking for relationships or whatever outside of his marriage. If there was a relationship there, and that person may also be married, or just does not want to be sucked into this ugly situation, the person may not want to own up to taking the call. I want him to have to explain why he called there of all places.
MOO

 

[JerseyGirl]

There are many more reasons why using falling asleep is risky. I just don't see them doing it.

Ross told Stoddard at the scene that Cooper "must have fallen asleep".


@13:45 [video=youtube;A-tiBT_0nNg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-tiBT_0nNg[/video]

 

[blue22]

Ross told Stoddard at the scene that Cooper "must have fallen asleep".


@13:45 [video=youtube;A-tiBT_0nNg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-tiBT_0nNg[/video]

Yes, I know Ross said it.

I was talking about the defense using "must have fallen asleep" as an explanation for Ross forgetting Cooper.

 

[magnolia]

BBM

That's not entirely true. The defense team and/or defense witnesses can also introduce incriminating evidence. Of course, that's not the role of the DT, but it can and does happen. Great prosecutors make that happen. If the DT wants to argue that Ross knew Cooper was asleep in the car, that's enough for me to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that Ross knew Cooper was in the car. If Ross knew he was there, that's enough for malice murder IMO.

BBM-The defense won't argue that Ross knew Cooper was asleep. They will open up the possibility through their questioning of witnesses and may suggest the possibility in their closing. One or more of the Little Apron witnesses testified there were times Cooper was asleep when RH brought him to the Day Care = Kilgore has already opened up the possibility. It's possible Leanna will testify that Cooper often fell asleep while in his car seat. It's possible she might say, he must have fallen asleep = He often does that.Does this mean she saw or knew Cooper was asleep that morning?? No, it only opens up the possibility through experiences she has had with her child. IMO

 

[blue22]

But has anyone heard RH state that? That Cooper fell asleep? So far I only heard Stoddard testify that RH told him that. .. Stoddard also told Murphy not complete truths too on SW didn't he?

Hasn't it been stated that his interview with RH was but audio and video recorded?

 

[blue22]

Blue- I'm remembering incorrectly the State's assertion that RH in the AM, not after lunch, walked with phone in hand, but turned around, seemed concerned, that someone was walking towards or near his car?

My apologies if that is the case, and thank YOU for pointing out that I misremembered. The accuracy of factual information being discussed matters.

If I'm the Blue you are referring to, I don't think I pointed that out. But you're welcome, LOL.

Truth be told, I do not remember most of the testimony surrounding this. NO idea when people walked near his car. Just speculating that there wouldn't have been many people at that time in the morning. I'm sure this part of testimony will be very important.

 

[Hope4More]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/12/us/justin-ross-harris-trial-explainer/

That's a great link to vids and other data, GA Peach. TY

"Investigators found Harris made online searches in the days before Cooper's death related directly to babies in hot cars, and one search for "how to survive prison.

Now, why would Ross be interested in reading about "how to survive prison"? Things that make ya go hmm.....

IMO, because he was sexting with a 16 year old, knew it was illegal, wasn't going to stop doing it, and out of some weird curiosity, checked into what would happen to him if caught.

If the date of that search (I'm assuming for the sake of discussion Stoddard got that one right) fell in the 2 weeks before Cooper's death and is brought up by the State, his interest in the subject will be open to both interpretations, imo.

And.....Kilgore in opening specifically smacked down the State's assertion RH made any such searches.