Australia - Warriena Wright, 26, dies in balcony fall, Surfers Paradise, Aug 2014 #6

[Ausgirl]

"She was not imprisoned."

She did NOT want to be there.

HE made very sure she could not leave by locking that door.

Pure illogic.

 

[Elde Fruit]

How likely would it have been that Tostee could see all that was taking place through those large glass doors?
No stop, don't, it's all good you can go home.....nothing except, heavy breathing, s*** and a call to his lawyer.
imo

Except....it is common ground that her choice was to climb over the railing within seconds of arriving at the balcony. Her choice. Her choice. Her decision. Her decision. Not one he, or anyone could reasonably anticipate.

 

[Strangeworld]

Just guessing. You have not read the discussion? I'll go the the kernel. She was not imprisoned. Not even the Crown asserts she was. After she attacked him violently, and using legal moderate force, he manages (how is not known) to get her to the balcony. Crown case is that he then shut and locked the door, and that is the end of his engagement with her. From that moment on, she was the Master of her own destiny. Everything beyond that is pure speculation, other than, she chose to attempt to climb down from a 14th Floor balcony, rather than stay where she was. She could have screamed her lungs off asking for help if she thought she was in danger. Nah. She elects to climb over, and the rest is history.

BBM
Quoting myself:
Separated does not equal disengaged now does it, by definition of course.

 

[StarryVeck]

Just guessing. You have not read the discussion? I'll go the the kernel. She was not imprisoned. Not even the Crown asserts she was. After she attacked him violently, and using legal moderate force, he manages (how is not known) to get her to the balcony. Crown case is that he then shut and locked the door, and that is the end of his engagement with her. From that moment on, she was the Master of her own destiny. Everything beyond that is pure speculation, other than, she chose to attempt to climb down from a 14th Floor balcony, rather than stay where she was. She could have screamed her lungs off asking for help if she thought she was in danger. Nah. She elects to climb over, and the rest is history.

Nope, guessed wrong, but that's not surprising. Locking someone on your balcony and trapping them there when they're pleading to be allowed to leave and go home is imprisoning them. End of. Oh, and she did scream. Lots. You didn't listen to the recording?

 

[Strangeworld]

Except....it is common ground that her choice was to climb over the railing within seconds of arriving at the balcony. Her choice. Her choice. Her decision. Her decision. Not one he, or anyone could reasonably anticipate.

Luckily the legally wegally laws we have in place are a little more complex than that and allow for cases where someone contributes to another's death, even if the victim's decision-making formed part of the unfolding events.Now where did I put that cookbook....

 

[PainExpress]

I don't know what's more disgusting, the individual or the apologists.

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[Tortoise]

Except....it is common ground that her choice was to climb over the railing within seconds of arriving at the balcony. Her choice. Her choice. Her decision. Her decision. Not one he, or anyone could reasonably anticipate.

Still avoiding the question, but continuing to assert the same. Why could he not anticipate her only method of escape, knowing he had restricted her breathing? Is that not a threat to life that someone would attempt to flee from, rather than return to, or even hang around outside waiting to see if it might escalate?

How many people would make that choice or decision, if not in complete fear? If the answer is none, or only those who do such things as leaping from skyscrapers for a career, then the answer for the jury is clear.

 

[mellie89]

BBM.

Maybe she did. Who knows, That is for the Crown to explain on the evidence it led at the Trial. The relevant question is.....why did she not just stay there, calm down, relieved he did not toss her off, relax, even go to sleep....and then, knock on the door by way of obvious contrition for her appalling conduct up to when she was put out there. That is not 'victim bashing.' That is the Crown concession that she had unlawfully assaulted him. People seem to be glossing over what led up to her being on the balcony. She was a violent person, unlawfully attacking him, in his Unit. The Crown concedes that.

Wot?

She should have laid down and gone to sleep (on the cold balcony, with no blanket, while fearing for her life) "relieved" he didn't toss her off? Then once she woke up she should have knocked on the door all apologetic and remorseful??

Again, wot?

I guess she should have given him a blowy afterwards too to show how grateful she was for not getting tossed off the 14th floor.

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[Strangeworld]

Not only am I thinking of Warriena's family, friends and loved ones tonight, but also the jurors. A heavy responsibility is weighing on their shoulders.

 

[ak19861981]

Is anyone else of the opinion that he might have placed her on the balcony ledge beyond the railing? She was so inebriated she could barely speak so it makes sense she could only scream no, no, no over and over. He might have stood her on the ledge in the hope she might fall (he could have his thrill without having to push her himself)... Then perhaps she tried to kneel down and hold the railing in order to get back on to the balcony. Maybe she slipped or couldn't get her footing and that's why the people below saw her legs dangling. I feel like this is MUCH more likely than her attempting to scale her way down just because he's locked the balcony door on her.

 

[SouthAussie]

It really is sort of surprising that Tostee did not consider that Warriena may try to climb away. He had already called her pyscho. He knew she was off her face. He knew she was frightened (no .. no .. no .. no .. let me go home).

There are so many stories of drunk people climbing from balcony to balcony at the Gold Coast. Sitting on the outer ledges. Sitting on the balcony rails. Some have come to misfortune.

The drunk schoolies reveller photographed lying on the edge of a Gold Coast highrise will be evicted from the hotel today.
The photograph of 18-year-old Cameron Cox, taking a rest on the 11th floor ledge of the Hawaiian Holiday Apartments at Surfers Paradise, was posted online yesterday.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...ghrise-schoolies-reveller-20121119-29myd.html


A 19-year-old man fell to his death from a Gold Coast highrise around 1am this morning, just 25 hours after a 23-year-old man also fell to this death in similar circumstances. Police said the teen fell from an eighth-floor balcony of the Beachcomber resort on Hanlan Street, Surfers Paradise, around 1.15am.
This mornings fatal balcony fall comes just 25 hours after a 23-year-old Gold Coast 600 reveller from north of Brisbane fell from the Peppers Oracle balcony at Broadbeach. It is understood the young man was trying to climb to a neighbouring balcony when he lost his footing and was left dangling from a railing for several minutes before falling from the 13th floor railing to a balcony ledge on the 11th floor, hitting his head.
https://www.facebook.com/GoldCoastWeather/posts/369703846437224

 

[Strangeworld]

Wot?

She should have laid down and gone to sleep (on the cold balcony, with no blanket, while fearing for her life) "relieved" he didn't toss her off? Then once she woke up she should have knocked on the door all apologetic and remorseful??

Again, wot?

I guess she should have given him a blowy afterwards too to show how grateful she was for not getting tossed off the 14th floor.

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:laughcry:

 

[mellie89]

If she was being irrational all night then why is it so far fetched for Tostee to have considered that she would continue being irrational outside? If climbing over the balcony is an irrational act and a "continuation" of the 'irrational behavior' she had exibited all night then why is it her death was "not foreseeable "? If she's acting irrational then that's even more reason to not toss her on a balcony 14 floors up and lock the door IMO.

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[ninij9]

Yes, he restrained her on the property, denied her requests to be removed from it. Because, she'd "been a bad girl"

I am confused by Aussie Law, because in the U.S. that's false imprisonment. And if you die during said False imprisonment then it's at least manslaughter. She was LOCKED in a portion of HIS home. And then SHE DIED.

what more is there?

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[ninij9]

Agreed but would you think you would contemplate climbing that railing for at least a moment before you actually try and execute it?
Wouldn't you yell to the neighbours or something. I just can't imagine her making such a split second decision and throwing herself over that railing without thinking about it for a second.
Of course it's possible just not how I imagine it would have gone down. Also in the recording you can hear him shut the door and he's breathing heavy and then within seconds she drops.
Where was the time for the neighbour to speak with her about climbing back up?
In the recording it seems to all happen within seconds.


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Neighbor may be assuming she's speaking to him. She was probably addressing gable whom the neighbor wouldn't even see from that angle. Sorry, because of what this witness thought he saw, alot of this case doesn't make sense, so thank God we have the recording which tells a remarkably different story than what the neighbor saw. Jmo.moo.

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[ninij9]

The problem with that theory is that by Crown admission, Tostee may well have even forgotten he was recording, at least at times.

Except he tells her she's being recorded.

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[SouthAussie]

Except he tells her she's being recorded.

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Yes, he tells her right during the crucial pre-fatal moments. He knew .. the whole time. imo

It was commonplace for him to record his 'dates'. He bragged about it to the brahs, and told them exactly how he did it, on the bodybuilding forum. Told them what worked well, what didn't work so well, in the recording game. A real step-by-step, here's-how-you-do-it kinda guy.

 

[Puja]

I don't know what's more disgusting, the individual or the apologists.

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The apologists are worse, as at least Tostee knows he did something wrong. MOO.

 

[shultz]

The apologists are worse, as at least Tostee knows he did something wrong. MOO.

Proud apologist right her. I'm an apologist for justice.

 

[Estelle]

What is “Causation” in Criminal Law?

In criminal law, causation essentially describes a ‘cause and effect’ relationship between the defendant’s actions and the harm suffered by the alleged victim.

In order to establish a defendant’s guilt, the prosecution must prove beyond reasonable doubt that his or her actions were a ‘substantial and significant cause’ of the harm. This means that although other factors may have contributed to the harm suffered, the defendant can in certain circumstances still be found criminally responsible. Homicide cases are often useful to illustrate the law relating to causation.

In the important case of Royall v R [1991] HCA 27, Kelly Louise Healey died after falling from the window of a sixth floor apartment. It was alleged that prior to her death, she had been engaged in a violent argument with her boyfriend, Mr Royall.

At trial, the prosecution put forward three possible explanations for her death:

1. That Mr Royall had pushed her out of the window,

2. That she had fallen whilst attempting to avoid an attack by Mr Royall, and

3. That she died whilst trying to escape ‘life-threatening violence.’

It was held that even though Ms Healey may have directly brought about her own death by jumping out the window, Mr Royall was ultimately responsible for her death as he created a ‘well founded apprehension that she would be subjected to further violence’ if she remained in the apartment.

Accordingly, the court found that Royall’s actions were the ‘substantial or significant cause’ of Ms Healey’s death.

In criminal cases, the question of whether the defendant’s conduct ‘substantially or significantly’ brought about the deceased’s death is left to the jury. Where there are several different possibilities for the death, as was the case in Royall, the jury is not required to determine the exact cause of death – but rather, they should simply focus on whether the defendant’s actions substantially contributed towards the death.

http://nswcourts.com.au/articles/what-is-causation-in-criminal-law/

There are other cases on this link too.