Was Burke Involved? # 4

[PositiveLight]

Whew! All this talk about the fecal material on the candy box again! LOL.

It's my understanding this info came from Linda Hoffman, but I don't remember exactly how. Here is what I found:
"'After they sealed off JonBenet's room, the crime scene technicians went through it, [and] they apparently found feces smeared on a box of candy she had [gotten] for Christmas,' said former housekeeper Linda Hoffman, according to the Daily Mail."

This tells me the feces was on the box of candy, rather than on the candy in the box. IMO, investigators would not have made note of it if it had only been a small amount (as in a failure to wash hands after poor wiping, for example).

The poop is fascinating!:laughing:
Seriously... this case has so much poop on it... the candy box isn't the only thing smeared with poop. Poop is flying left an right! lol

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Mountain_Kat,

Basement Photos Refresher
Patsy's 1998 BPD Interview, excerpt


Photos were found and it was more than say five, since Trip DeMuth is comparing them with other JonBenet photo sessions, their nature well that's cutesy according to Trip DeMuth. Later BPD executed a search warrant at the Ramsey house in Charlevoix, Michigan, where allegedly they were looking for inappropriate pictures of JonBenet? The results of the search warrant were sealed.

.

Yep, that's exactly what I recall having read. Thanks.

 

[Ambitioned]

The poop is fascinating!:laughing:
Seriously... this case has so much poop on it... the candy box isn't the only thing smeared with poop. Poop is flying left an right! lol

I was gonna make a pun, but they never squirt out right :laughing: :skip:

 

[mrseeker]

I was gonna make a pun, but they never squirt out right :laughing: :skip:

I think this entire line of thought stinks. LOL. It has gone into the toilet..oh wait, it hasn't, that's the problem. Ok I said it.

I have to admit this issue of pooh smearing and leaving it all over the house made me google the issue. I have heard about this I suppose, somewhere in my long years, but never knew a personal example. It appears its an issue for lots of kids from 5 or so to the teens. I guess its not the type of thing parents brag about. "My kid won the spelling bee last friday and smeared his feces all over the living room on saturday and we are so proud." There are lots of forums dedicated to this issue. seems some think its about medical issues, some about psychiatric, and some personality disorders, Adhd, autism, Oppositional defiant disorder, constipation, and idiopathic. I have to say, I have never been interested in my own poop. I hope I am not alone. So if BR had this issue, it seems everyone would know. I read some entries on forums, kids with this put it all kinds of places. They cannot stay overnight with other kids, and everyone has to be careful entering their rooms. It sounds unbelievable. People talk about it being left on living room furniture, beds, inside clothing in the damper, in the middle of rooms, smeared and in balls, piles and whatever. I have to say, this issue would be on the top of my list if I were doctor Phil doing an interview. I think i would want to put this issue to rest, or flush this down the toilet once and for all. I am not sure what to think. Ok I am going to take a shower now.

 

[BBB167893]

The reason the attorney dismissed the idea that the GJ couldn't decide which parent was the murderer is because they did not recommend either be charged with murder.

If the grand jury really couldn't puzzle out which one did the actual killing, it's far more likely they would have recommended murder charges for both because at a minimum one was likely covering for the other, and possibly an accessory before the fact. Let the actual trial sort that out. But naming neither as the murderer is a pretty clear indicator that they didn't think either one was. This leaves only one person.

I take your point. But I have to ask, why would they charge with murder when there was no murder? If it all started as an accident, it couldn't be a homicide, could it?

 

[treeseeker]

Technically, the asphyxiation killed. her, and that can not be in any way construed an accident. I do wonder if the pair of charges was to avoid some sort of double jeopardy issue in the future, depending on one trial or the other. I have a hard time accepting that they all thought BR committed a murder, the parents covered it all up, and they let everyone go on their merry way. You'd think at the very least BR would have been given some form of court supervision, if he had such serious issues and with parents unable to rationally deal with them. I don't know, maybe he did get that.

 

[mrseeker]

Technically, the asphyxiation killed. her, and that can not be in any way construed an accident. I do wonder if the pair of charges was to avoid some sort of double jeopardy issue in the future, depending on one trial or the other. I have a hard time accepting that they all thought BR committed a murder, the parents covered it all up, and they let everyone go on their merry way. You'd think at the very least BR would have been given some form of court supervision, if he had such serious issues and with parents unable to rationally deal with them. I don't know, maybe he did get that.

Not sure BR could be held responsible criminally at all given his age. I think the GJ decided on the charges based on what could likely be proven. Not sure it was the best charge, but they must have decided, we cannot be sure who killed her, but the parents allowed the killer near. It could be they thought one of the parents did it, but could not decide which one...or perhaps they thought it could be BR and the parents knew of the dangers and did nothing to prevent it. It was an interesting charge, but at the end of the day, the defense would have probably made mincemeat of it. I think the police muffed this from the beginning. Not a fan of the Boulder DA's from day one til today, but I think Hunter was trying to use the GJ to pressure PR and JR and it failed. I have said all along, money determined this case. When I see PR, I see a very defiant woman. Yes she is denying killing her daughter. Would make anyone upset and angry. BUt in her voice I hear, prove it buddy! more than I hear, sadness.

 

[PositiveLight]

I was gonna make a pun, but they never squirt out right :laughing: :skip:

:laughing:

 

[TeaTime]

Nor does it constitute intentional assault. I do trust you know that people have been accidentally hit with a golf club as they were walking behind someone taking a backswing.

But, PR's friend and JBR's photographer, Pam Griffith, stated that PR told her that BR hit JBR with a golf club in a fit of anger, not by accident.

 

[PositiveLight]

I think this entire line of thought stinks. LOL. It has gone into the toilet..oh wait, it hasn't, that's the problem. Ok I said it.

I have to admit this issue of pooh smearing and leaving it all over the house made me google the issue. I have heard about this I suppose, somewhere in my long years, but never knew a personal example. It appears its an issue for lots of kids from 5 or so to the teens. I guess its not the type of thing parents brag about. "My kid won the spelling bee last friday and smeared his feces all over the living room on saturday and we are so proud." There are lots of forums dedicated to this issue. seems some think its about medical issues, some about psychiatric, and some personality disorders, Adhd, autism, Oppositional defiant disorder, constipation, and idiopathic. I have to say, I have never been interested in my own poop. I hope I am not alone. So if BR had this issue, it seems everyone would know. I read some entries on forums, kids with this put it all kinds of places. They cannot stay overnight with other kids, and everyone has to be careful entering their rooms. It sounds unbelievable. People talk about it being left on living room furniture, beds, inside clothing in the damper, in the middle of rooms, smeared and in balls, piles and whatever. I have to say, this issue would be on the top of my list if I were doctor Phil doing an interview. I think i would want to put this issue to rest, or flush this down the toilet once and for all. I am not sure what to think. Ok I am going to take a shower now.

Yes! It's definitely something a parent wouldn't be proud of!
Sometimes you have to find humor to be able to get through some tough discussions!

 

[TeaTime]

I take your point. But I have to ask, why would they charge with murder when there was no murder? If it all started as an accident, it couldn't be a homicide, could it?

SuperDave - homicide just means the death was caused by another, even an accidental killing is a homicide.

 

[BBB167893]

SuperDave - homicide just means the death was caused by another, even an accidental killing is a homicide.

This is why I think it's so important to know exactly what the Grand Jury thought and why they thought it.

 

[HarmonyE.]

I take your point. But I have to ask, why would they charge with murder when there was no murder? If it all started as an accident, it couldn't be a homicide, could it?

I'm not following. She was murdered, bashed in the head and strangled and the grand jury acknowledged this. One of the charges against Patsy (John's was the same).

On or about December 25, and December 26, 1996 in Boulder County, Colorado, Patricia Paugh Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly and feloniously render assistance to a person, with intent to hinder, delay and prevent the discovery, detention, apprehension, prosecution, conviction and punishment of such person for the commission of a crime, knowing the person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of Murder in the First Degree and Child Abuse Resulting in Death.”

A child under 10 in the state can't be held criminally responsible, but this does not mean he cannot commit a crime. The crime was committed, but the grand jury did not charge John and Patsy with murder. Their charge was that they did left their child in danger and then covered up for her murderer.

 

[TeaTime]

I just finished Kolar's book. According to Kolar, who had the transcripts and videos of all the interviews that the Ramseys gave, JR admitted, some 18 months after the murder, that he was taking prescription meds ordered by BR's psychiatrist.

Why was BR seeing a psychiatrist at all much less perhaps up through 18 months post murder?

BR, as far as everything I have read and seen had zero reaction to JBR's murder. ZERO. He wasn't afraid and felt safe at a time when all the people of Boulder were scared. He didn't show any emotion at the funeral according to even the closest friends of the Ramseys and the only show of any kind of awareness that his sister was dead was him patting her coffin a few times before it was lowered into the ground.

He surely wasn't seeing a psychiatrist because he was melting down in grief and fear.

Kolar mentions a series of 3 photos taken by one of the detectives 2 days after JBR's murder at a time when the Ramseys, including BR, were giving saliva samples for DNA. PR is described as having her hair combed tightly against her head, she had on no make-up. She and JR were described as aged and obviously in anguish, nearly unrecognizable compared to photos of them pre-murder. Sitting next to them was BR, leaning back in his chair, armed draped over a table, looking straight into the camera lens and smiling.

He didn't include JBR in the drawing he made of his family 13 days after his sister was taken from her room down the hall from his, murdered and dumped in the basement, he was "moving on with life". At age 30, he explains "well, she was gone, so. . ." as he reflects on his thoughts as a 10 year old. I am not saying he should have been crying, I do understand that children do not have a grasp on the concept of death, I have seen them playing and laughing at their parent(s) funerals. I get it. But he should have been terrified of the intruder who snatches children from their beds and murders them while their parents sleep. He wasn't. This is not normal behavior for a child. All of Boulder's children and their parents were scared but not BR.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

But, PR's friend and JBR's photographer, Pam Griffith, stated that PR told her that BR hit JBR with a golf club in a fit of anger, not by accident.

I believe Pam G was the seamstress whose daughter coached JB. The photographer was Judith Phillips. Both she and her husband are on the record saying they think Burke did it and that there were jealousy issues between BR and JB. Judith knew the Ramseys for years but only casually. Tom Miller never met them but was a lawyer/PI hired by Craig Lewis of the Globe who was aggressively covering the Ramsey case. I wonder why they came to that conclusion and why they've decided to state this publicly. I was fairly surprised to see her state that on two different shows last month. Probably knows she doesn't have enough money for Lin Wood to bother.

From what I've watched and read about her, I get the impression that she really struggled with the idea that her friend Patsy could have done this to JB, to the extent that maybe BDI is easier to live with. Just a thought.

 

[kanzz]

I just finished Kolar's book. According to Kolar, who had the transcripts and videos of all the interviews that the Ramseys gave, JR admitted, some 18 months after the murder, that he was taking prescription meds ordered by BR's psychiatrist.

Why was BR seeing a psychiatrist at all much less perhaps up through 18 months post murder?

BR, as far as everything I have read and seen had zero reaction to JBR's murder. ZERO. He wasn't afraid and felt safe at a time when all the people of Boulder were scared. He didn't show any emotion at the funeral according to even the closest friends of the Ramseys and the only show of any kind of awareness that his sister was dead was him patting her coffin a few times before it was lowered into the ground.

He surely wasn't seeing a psychiatrist because he was melting down in grief and fear.

Kolar mentions a series of 3 photos taken by one of the detectives 2 days after JBR's murder at a time when the Ramseys, including BR, were giving saliva samples for DNA. PR is described as having her hair combed tightly against her head, she had on no make-up. She and JR were described as aged and obviously in anguish, nearly unrecognizable compared to photos of them pre-murder. Sitting next to them was BR, leaning back in his chair, armed draped over a table, looking straight into the camera lens and smiling.

He didn't include JBR in the drawing he made of his family 13 days after his sister was taken from her room down the hall from his, murdered and dumped in the basement, he was "moving on with life". At age 30, he explains "well, she was gone, so. . ." as he reflects on his thoughts as a 10 year old. I am not saying he should have been crying, I do understand that children do not have a grasp on the concept of death, I have seen them playing and laughing at their parent(s) funerals. I get it. But he should have been terrified of the intruder who snatches children from their beds and murders them while their parents sleep. He wasn't. This is not normal behavior for a child. All of Boulder's children and their parents were scared but not BR.

Perhaps BR was seeing that psychiatrist even before JB was murdered.. ? That's what I've been wondering. With the other hints we have (the golf club incident, the fecal smearing, the books sent to PR by Nedra Paugh, etc.), it wouldn't be surprising. In fact, it would be somewhat surprising if he were not already in therapy prior to this event.

And I get it that a 10 year old doesn't have a full grasp of death. But c'mon. It's one thing when great gran-dad dies. It's another thing altogether when your little sister is brutally murdered in your own home. I mean, this is the stuff of a little kid's nightmares. Every other kid in Boulder thought the Boogeyman was going to get them. This little freak was just the opposite. Eh, she's gone.. "moving on with life". No empathy whatsoever.

 

[icedtea4me]

But, PR's friend and JBR's photographer, Pam Griffith, stated that PR told her that BR hit JBR with a golf club in a fit of anger, not by accident.

Thank you for providing a source for this. That was very nice of you.

BTW, here is the account Patsy gave to Det Haney:

[FONT=&quot]24 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. There was[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25 mention while we are talking about that, there[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]0294[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 1 was mention of a situation where he apparently[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 2 hit JonBenet with a golf club up at Charlevoix?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 4 THOMAS HANEY: Could you tell us[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 5 about that?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 6 PATSY RAMSEY: He was taking a[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 7 practice swing, he was just a little guy, he was[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 8 two or three, or two and a half, and he was --[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 9 it was our first summer there, how young they[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 were there.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 THOMAS HANEY: About what year[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 would that have been?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 PATSY RAMSEY: That was '93, I[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 believe. And he, you know, he was out there[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 with his little Whiffle ball, golf balls, and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 she walked up behind and he kind of clipped her[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 right on the cheek. And she screamed bloody[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 murder.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 And I jumped down off the porch and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 grabbed her and, you know, slammed ice on it. I[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]21 thought he got her in the eye, and went down[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 there to the emergency room and, you know, the[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 doctor looked and it was just, you know, that[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 socket around your eye, protects your eye there,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25 so she had a good old black eye for a while.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm[/FONT]

 

[kanzz]

Thank you for providing a source for this. That was very nice of you.

BTW, here is the account Patsy gave to Det Haney:

[FONT=&amp]24 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. There was[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]25 mention while we are talking about that, there[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]0294[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 1 was mention of a situation where he apparently[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 2 hit JonBenet with a golf club up at Charlevoix?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 4 THOMAS HANEY: Could you tell us[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 5 about that?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 6 PATSY RAMSEY: He was taking a[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 7 practice swing, he was just a little guy, he was[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 8 two or three, or two and a half, and he was --[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 9 it was our first summer there, how young they[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]10 were there.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]11 THOMAS HANEY: About what year[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]12 would that have been?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]13 PATSY RAMSEY: That was '93, I[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]14 believe. And he, you know, he was out there[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]15 with his little Whiffle ball, golf balls, and[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]16 she walked up behind and he kind of clipped her[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]17 right on the cheek. And she screamed bloody[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]18 murder.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]19 And I jumped down off the porch and[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]20 grabbed her and, you know, slammed ice on it. I[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]21 thought he got her in the eye, and went down[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]22 there to the emergency room and, you know, the[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]23 doctor looked and it was just, you know, that[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]24 socket around your eye, protects your eye there,[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]25 so she had a good old black eye for a while.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm[/FONT]

Not sure how to interpret any of this. Well.. let me put it another way... Not sure how we can believe anything that comes out of her mouth.

First she says:
"he was two or three, or two and a half"
Then she says: "That was '93, I believe"

So. Wouldn't BR have been 6 in '93?

J/S.

 

[PositiveLight]

Thank you for providing a source for this. That was very nice of you.

BTW, here is the account Patsy gave to Det Haney:

[FONT=&amp]24 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. There was[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]25 mention while we are talking about that, there[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]0294[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 1 was mention of a situation where he apparently[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 2 hit JonBenet with a golf club up at Charlevoix?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 4 THOMAS HANEY: Could you tell us[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 5 about that?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 6 PATSY RAMSEY: He was taking a[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 7 practice swing, he was just a little guy, he was[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 8 two or three, or two and a half, and he was --[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 9 it was our first summer there, how young they[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]10 were there.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]11 THOMAS HANEY: About what year[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]12 would that have been?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]13 PATSY RAMSEY: That was '93, I[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]14 believe. And he, you know, he was out there[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]15 with his little Whiffle ball, golf balls, and[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]16 she walked up behind and he kind of clipped her[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]17 right on the cheek. And she screamed bloody[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]18 murder.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]19 And I jumped down off the porch and[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]20 grabbed her and, you know, slammed ice on it. I[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]21 thought he got her in the eye, and went down[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]22 there to the emergency room and, you know, the[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]23 doctor looked and it was just, you know, that[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]24 socket around your eye, protects your eye there,[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]25 so she had a good old black eye for a while.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm[/FONT]

Patsy lied about everything!
She suffered from Ramnesia.
So anything coming out of her mouth is useless.

 

[icedtea4me]

Not sure how to interpret any of this. Well.. let me put it another way... Not sure how we can believe anything that comes out of her mouth.

First she says:
"he was two or three, or two and a half"
Then she says: "That was '93, I believe"

So. Wouldn't BR have been 6 in '93?

J/S.

*sigh*

[FONT=&quot]6 PATSY RAMSEY: He was taking a[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 7 practice swing, he was just a little guy, he was[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 8 two or three, or two and a half,

First Patsy mentions Burke. Then one of the following occurred:

1. Patsy inadvertently used the wrong pronoun when talking about JonBenet, who would have been 2 1/2 years old at the time. Or
2. The transcriptionist made a mistake when transcribing.[/FONT]