IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #65

[RIP Meagan + Johnny]

There is a white vehicle that is seen in the helicopter video (at the 12:03 mark) at the house at the end of the road that goes under the SE end of the bridge. Can't tell if it is LE or not.

I believe the photo you posted was taken during the rescue/recovery search.
I was referring to the pictures from Libby's phone of Abby and BG that were analyzed and analyzed and analyzed.....

 

[Shiressleuth]

Was it soundproof?

Also were they teleported to that area? Or did they walk?

If they did indeed walk to the area, then they were potentially visible to other sets of eyes for quite awhile before they reached that point.

If it happened the way you say, then the killer just got really lucky.

Do you believe the killer was willing to take that chance on LUCK being his guaranteed partner?

Just my opinion, as always.

There really was very few people around to hear or see anything The only witness I am aware of was not there till 3 p.m. IIRC. No-one was home at the two closest properties. He probably knew that and also knew that nobody was behind him on the bridge or trail. JMOO

 

[Falling Down]

Yes. The clearer area seen in the upper right of the image near the creek is the area that would have to be walked through if you follow the path GH suggests BG and the girls went. That area as you would come out of the creek on the north side and for some 30 to 40 feet (since it would be a more diagonal walk then a straight one if I recall his path) would provide the best chance of anyone who could have been there of seeing them walking to where the kill happened per that theory. Unfortunately no one was there or if they were they didn't see them. But that would have been the best chance of seeing anything from anywhere else but along the ridge line on the north side.

It's a secluded, but not remote, spot.

Perfect for BG.

 

[Falling Down]

That's a really good map. Very clear.

I'm satisfied that LE has the journey from the bridge to their bodies well in hand. I have to imagine once the girls were found, LE combed every possible route, and have looked for disturbance in the ground and brush. That would be standard investigatory procedure--they just haven't given all the details to the public, probably because this would likely be important hold-back info, to guard against a false confession.

What I've been looking for, and haven't found is a map of where the girls were dropped off by their sister (?), to where the moton bridge is.

From where on the Delphi Historic trail would the killer have most likely first spotted the girls. He had to be on the trail, not below at the point he crosses. Is it more likely that this was pure hapchance, or could he have been lurking for some time?

What entrance to the trail might he have been coming from? He could have back-tracked, but that bridge is not an easy cross, so what was he doing, where might he have been on the trail, just before he zeroed in on the girls?

How far from the girl's drop-off point was the bridge? Has anyone located a map of that?

My hunch is he entered the area via the trail from the cemetery. Walked to the CS. Perhaps dropped a backpack or something similar.

Scanned the bridge. Saw his potential victims. Walked the creek side to the NW approach to the bridge, Looked back down the main trail from the parking area, where the girls were dropped off. Started across the bridge. Looked behind him maybe once, or twice, before he abducted the girls.

Just my dumb theory, and I came up with it shortly after the murders.

The above illustrates what I believe are the general distances of the abduction and murder, minus the trail to the bridge, and the distance from the CS to the cemetery. Just the abduction and murder. It's such a tight area, that I'd be surprised that once the abduction happened, from that beginning of the 4th leg of my stupid diamond, to their deaths, was under 20 minutes.

My time of death (TOD) is roughly 2:45 PM, and that might be pushing it.

JMO

 

[venutian21]

My hunch is he entered the area via the trail from the cemetery. Walked to the CS. Perhaps dropped a backpack or something similar.

Scanned the bridge. Saw his potential victims. Walked the creek side to the NW approach to the bridge, Looked back down the main trail from the parking area, where the girls were dropped off. Started across the bridge. Looked behind him maybe once, or twice, before he abducted the girls.

Just my dumb theory, and I came up with it shortly after the murders.

The above illustrates what I believe are the general distances of the abduction and murder, minus the trail to the bridge, and the distance from the CS to the cemetery. Just the abduction and murder. It's such a tight area, that I'd be surprised that once the abduction happened, from that beginning of the 4th leg of my stupid diamond, to their deaths, was under 20 minutes.

My time of death (TOD) is roughly 2:45 PM, and that might be pushing it.

JMO

In all the videos taken at the bridge, has anyone ever walked it from the point of the last picture of Abby, to the SE end off the bridge and timed it? Under a few scenarios of walking straight or stopping along the way. To at least come up with a general idea of time. Obviously it would not be precise, but just to give us more of an idea on time frame. If DG is calling Libby with no response around 3:11. And the picture of Abby is at 2:07.

 

[Shiressleuth]

I'm satisfied that LE has the journey from the bridge to their bodies well in hand.

The question is, did the killer happen on that stretch of trail, but started at another point in the park? Or did he pick that one trail for a reason?

I'm following Law Enforcement's information, that no vehicle was actually involved in the abduction, but did the killer have a car parked somewhere he could get to easily and escape by way of--say at the lot near State Road 25?

RSBM
If this is factual info that LE have actually said that no vehicle was involved in the abduction, please provide a link . Then we can stop speculating about a vehicle. If it is just your opinion please clarify. TIA.

 

[Shiressleuth]

My hunch is he entered the area via the trail from the cemetery. Walked to the CS. Perhaps dropped a backpack or something similar.

Scanned the bridge. Saw his potential victims. Walked the creek side to the NW approach to the bridge, Looked back down the main trail from the parking area, where the girls were dropped off. Started across the bridge. Looked behind him maybe once, or twice, before he abducted the girls.

Just my dumb theory, and I came up with it shortly after the murders.

The above illustrates what I believe are the general distances of the abduction and murder, minus the trail to the bridge, and the distance from the CS to the cemetery. Just the abduction and murder. It's such a tight area, that I'd be surprised that once the abduction happened, from that beginning of the 4th leg of my stupid diamond, to their deaths, was under 20 minutes.

My time of death (TOD) is roughly 2:45 PM, and that might be pushing it.

JMO

Its not a stupid diamond but a clever trapezoid. I agree it happened between 2.30 (BG video on bridge) and 3.11 p.m. (DG tries to contact LG). This also appears to possibly tie in with the 40 minute video/audio of the crime that LE have retrieved from the phone. AJMO.

 

[JazzTune]

There really was very few people around to hear or see anything The only witness I am aware of was not there till 3 p.m. IIRC. No-one was home at the two closest properties. He probably knew that and also knew that nobody was behind him on the bridge or trail. JMOO

At that exact point of contact with the girls, perhaps.

But as the crime progressed, that became a variable beyond the killer's control.

He could not have possibly known of the random comings and goings of others.

 

[ImnoSherlock]

Its not a stupid diamond but a clever trapezoid. I agree it happened between 2.30 (BG video on bridge) and 3.11 p.m. (DG tries to contact LG). This also appears to possibly tie in with the 40 minute video/audio of the crime that LE have retrieved from the phone. AJMO.

But... we now know that the couple was actually on the road instead of the bridge as previously thought,if it's the same couple.If it is and they weren't there till 3 and saw BG,then the crime would have already been over with and as previous posters pointed out or suggested,the CS wouldn't have been visible which would mean he didn't leave via the cemetery,he would have to be on the road for them to see him.Maybe I read these things wrong.I think the couple on the road is very important in the timeline and might could also answer the question if a vehicle may have been used.Which direction the couple was walking would be vital for that and also if the girls just crossed over,or walked the road.

 

[SouthernMom]

But... we now know that the couple was actually on the road instead of the bridge as previously thought,if it's the same couple.If it is and they weren't there till 3 and saw BG,then the crime would have already been over with and as previous posters pointed out or suggested,the CS wouldn't have been visible which would mean he didn't leave via the cemetery,he would have to be on the road for them to see him.Maybe I read these things wrong.I think the couple on the road is very important in the timeline and might could also answer the question if a vehicle may have been used.Which direction the couple was walking would be vital for that and also if the girls just crossed over,or walked the road.

IIRC, Fairly early in the investigation, LE asked if anyone had seen or picked up a hitchhiker or someone walking in that area on the day of the crime.

 

[ImnoSherlock]

IIRC, Fairly early in the investigation, LE asked if anyone had seen or picked up a hitchhiker or someone walking in that area on the day of the crime.

I know.I was just following up on some others' theories.

 

[Shiressleuth]

At that exact point of contact with the girls, perhaps.

But as the crime progressed, that became a variable beyond the killer's control.

He could not have possibly known of the random comings and goings of others.

No but in your theory it wouldn't matter because they would be driven away quickly. In the no vehicle theory they would be out of site and sound across the creek at the CS. Same difference.

 

[htiff]

RSBM
If this is factual info that LE have actually said that no vehicle was involved in the abduction, please provide a link . Then we can stop speculating about a vehicle. If it is just your opinion please clarify. TIA.

To prove a negative is impossible. For example, LE has also not stated that these two girls were abducted by Aliens. Do I have a link to an article where LE states absolutely that Abigail and Libby were NOT abducted by Aliens? No. But the fact that LE has never even mentioned Alien abduction, or a vehicle being involved in the abduction, kind of says it all...

I think it's important to go by what LE has stated--not by wild speculation that just because LE hasn't made clear that Libby and Abigail were not abducted by Aliens, or not abducted by way of a vehicle, then somehow these theories are then true--as in true by virtue of the fact that the theories have not been explicitly negated.

LE doesn't have time to debunk every wacky theory. They've given us a lot of information--that it would seem useful to be guided by.

And the last in depth interview given by LE explained that the terrain the girls were on to get where they died was rough. The description given was a hike through the wooded areas and across deer creek, on foot.

I'm not sure what more proof you would need.

 

[Jethro4WS]

I believe the photo you posted was taken during the rescue/recovery search.
I was referring to the pictures from Libby's phone of Abby and BG that were analyzed and analyzed and analyzed.....

I posted the frame from the helicopter video in regard to what properties might have been snow birds or not. The debunked stuff, including a car, was the nonsense that was trying to show such things down in the woods below the bridge and closer to the creek. That has nothing to do with the actual road/private drive that passes under the SE end of the bridge and ends at the house seen in the video frame. We have no images from Libby where that road can be seen and thus there is nothing that can be claimed to be seen there or to be debunked.

 

[Shiressleuth]

But... we now know that the couple was actually on the road instead of the bridge as previously thought,if it's the same couple.If it is and they weren't there till 3 and saw BG,then the crime would have already been over with and as previous posters pointed out or suggested,the CS wouldn't have been visible which would mean he didn't leave via the cemetery,he would have to be on the road for them to see him.Maybe I read these things wrong.I think the couple on the road is very important in the timeline and might could also answer the question if a vehicle may have been used.Which direction the couple was walking would be vital for that and also if the girls just crossed over,or walked the road.

IIRC the couple weren't seen till 3 p.m. and BG was on south end of bridge at 2.30 p.m. Assuming the crime was over by 3.11 then I don't think the couple can have seen BG. Also the couple were seen under the bridge but we don't know what part of the bridge they were under (north, south or elsewhere?) exactly do we?

 

[htiff]

I did find an excellent map that someone posted to Websleuths. I won't copy it here, because I'm not sure that's allowed, but what is interesting to me about the area in which these murders occurred is that the trail these girls were on is so short. It's a mile and 1/2 at best.

And they were dropped off, I think, at the N 300 entrance, which would have put them even closer to the Monon Bridge. So they most likely didn't walk all that far. But they were there an hour before this guy creeps up on them. Is it possible, even with how sparse the trees were that he just stood and waited until they were far enough on the bridge, to where he could isolate them?

That's what it seems like.

And if he did this, where did he enter the trail initially? Someone mentioned the Cemetery--is there an official entrance there?

I have to wonder if anyone not familiar with this park would even know this spot. All the roads near to both of the entrances specifically for this area of the trail are somewhat off the beaten path. Even state road 25 seems like a locally used route, rather than a major thoroughfare.

This may be old news to everyone else, but it almost seems like this guy is a local. I didn't think so before. But that part of the trail is very off the beaten path---or am I wrong about that?

 

[Jethro4WS]

To prove a negative is impossible. For example, LE has also not stated that these two girls were abducted by Aliens. Do I have a link to an article where LE states absolutely that Abigail and Libby were NOT abducted by Aliens? No. But the fact that LE has never even mentioned Alien abduction, or a vehicle being involved in the abduction, kind of says it all... I think it's important to go by what LE has stated--not by wild speculation that just because LE hasn't made clear that Libby and Abigail were not abducted by Aliens, or not abducted by way of a vehicle, then somehow these theories are then true--as in true by virtue of the fact that the theories have not been explicitly negated.

LE doesn't have time to debunk every wacky theory. They've given us a lot of information--that it would seem useful to be guided by.

And the last in depth interview given by LE explained that the terrain the girls were on to get where they died was rough. The description given was a hike through the wooded areas and across deer creek, on foot.

I'm not sure what more proof you would need.

Hang on though. LE has also never stated that the girls were killed where they were found nor has the media ever asked despite as recently as a few days ago having 27 minutes of one on one time to ask it. How can it be wild speculation if LE has never closed that door?

 

[RIP Meagan + Johnny]

I posted the frame from the helicopter video in regard to what properties might have been snow birds or not. The debunked stuff, including a car, was the nonsense that was trying to show such things down in the woods below the bridge and closer to the creek. That has nothing to do with the actual road/private drive that passes under the SE end of the bridge and ends at the house seen in the video frame. We have no images from Libby where that road can be seen and thus there is nothing that can be claimed to be seen there or to be debunked.

Ok. My mistake.

 

[RIP Meagan + Johnny]

I did find an excellent map that someone posted to Websleuths. I won't copy it here, because I'm not sure that's allowed, but what is interesting to me about the area in which these murders occurred is that the trail these girls were on is so short. It's a mile and 1/2 at best.

And they were dropped off, I think, at the N 300 entrance, which would have put them even closer to the Monon Bridge. So they most likely didn't walk all that far. But they were there an hour before this guy creeps up on them. Is it possible, even with how sparse the trees were that he just stood and waited until they were far enough on the bridge, to where he could isolate them?

That's what it seems like.

And if he did this, where did he enter the trail initially? Someone mentioned the Cemetery--is there an official entrance there?

I have to wonder if anyone not familiar with this park would even know this spot. All the roads near to both of the entrances specifically for this area of the trail are somewhat off the beaten path. Even state road 25 seems like a locally used route, rather than a major thoroughfare.

This may be old news to everyone else, but it almost seems like this guy is a local. I didn't think so before. But that part of the trail is very off the beaten path---or am I wrong about that?

RBBM
JMO...
AFAIR, the bridge is not part of the actual trail system. It is private property that is still owned by the railroad, although people still walked on it anyway, at least up until mid-February.

 

[kstephens98]

Yeah. You nailed it.

Those ideas are so much more clever than something like a "car" to take them to and from the killing grounds.

Better than something like a hunter's "deer sled" (as mentioned by DeDee as a possibility) to help transport them to where they were found.

I know your aim is over the top, and I don't mean to have an attitude about it.

Unfortunately though, these poor girls had the misfortune of encountering just your average, run-of-the-mill, very evil killer...

Glad to see some semblance of rationality here. [emoji16]

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