Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #1

[otto]

Does anyone here know what time the funeral/memorial service commences Australian Eastern Standard Time?

I notice it's being streamed live. TIA

Not sure, but ...

"Benjamin's Park Memorial Chapel will conduct the service, which is to be held at the International Centre at 11 a.m."

Looks like 11:00 AM (11:00) Toronto Time = 3:00 AM (3:00) Next Day Sydney Time

http://www.timebie.com/timezone/sydneytoronto.php

 

[otto]

Do any of you find this pool area depressing with no tiles around the pool (only drab concrete for such a beautiful home)?

View attachment 128013

I find the entire house to be too sprawling and to lack warmth. The outdoor pool seems more for entertaining, this pool was probably for laps and sauna. No real need for anything extra in the space - maybe a sound system.

 

[Jennifer17]

Do any of you find this pool area depressing with no tiles around the pool (only drab concrete for such a beautiful home)?

It may look different without the cover on, but I find all indoor pools a bit ugly and not what a pool is supposed to look like to me.IMO.

 

[Snoop Sister]

When you die you lose control of your bodily fluids. The LE would have used UV lights to detect this. IMO

In reading another murder case, it was determined that you don’t always lose control of your body fluids. It depends on how full one’s bladder and bowels are and where stool(s) are internally positioned. I don’t know how to link but it was in the Liknes and O’Brien murder case.

 

[gdalton]

Here is the main floor

and lower floor

side by side. I see "lift"in the kitchen, but that looks too small for people - looks more like a dumbwaiter that ends up in the master bedroom dressing room.​

Yeah, I thought it might actually be a laundry chute type thing.
They could have skipped the original build, considering they seemed to be pretty upset with the builders.
We do know the RE listing said "Potential for Elevator"...not the sort of thing you mention if there actually is a small elevator.​

 

[gdalton]

It is not a mirror, but I do think that is the direction they faced.

I thought it was a mirror myself...until I saw the floor plan.
Might be an unfinished wall or maybe a sliding glass door type thing.

Indoor pools tend to throw off a lot of humidity that can affect the rest of the house.
They usually end up closed off in weird parts of the house because of that...not really the ideal way to imagine an indoor pool.

 

[Snoop Sister]

I thought it was a mirror myself...until I saw the floor plan.
Might be an unfinished wall or maybe a sliding glass door type thing.

Indoor pools tend to throw off a lot of humidity that can affect the rest of the house.
They usually end up closed off in weird parts of the house because of that...not really the ideal way to imagine an indoor pool.

On my iPad, while enlarging the pic, it appears to be a glass wall and in the next room there appears to be a small table. Perhaps an open area that leads to the sauna room. I posted about this previously.

 

[Snoop Sister]

It has been expected that a private investigation hired by the children would already be underway.

The fact that this has been confirmed will be comforting to family members as well as friends of the Shermans.

Brian Greenspan is as dependable as he is well-respected as a prominent lawyer in Canada.
A good person to have for support.

Greenspan is informally assisting the family. And, rightly so....if these were my parents, I would want every possible stone uncovered. I feel for the family...how traumatic!

 

[human]

Do any of you find this pool area depressing with no tiles around the pool (only drab concrete for such a beautiful home)?

View attachment 128013

Funny that you should say that. I love to swim and that room looked totally unappealing to me.

 

[otto]

Yeah, I thought it might actually be a laundry chute type thing.
They could have skipped the original build, considering they seemed to be pretty upset with the builders.
We do know the RE listing said "Potential for Elevator"...not the sort of thing you mention if there actually is a small elevator.

The "lift" is in the kitchen, the pool area, and the master bedroom closet. I think it's for easily moving food up or down stairs. Maybe the "lift" is roughed in and non-functional. It's not big enough for people, and maybe it doesn't work for food.

They were upset about HVAC system and other stuff in their current house. They can afford to litigate companies into bankruptcy and it looks like they do that to get free stuff. Trump is the same - litigates construction work as a method to reduce overall cost.

I don't know where the "potential for elevator" would go - maybe a closet or outside the house. There's no elevator shaft in the house at this time that I could find.

Let me know if you see it on the floor plans

http://media.houssmax.ca/201711/29/5a1f32afd3797.pdf

 

[otto]

What is Greenspan's Legacy

“The anti-hate law in my view carefully strikes that balance: It’s not over-broad, the only emotion it proscribes is hatred, it doesn’t prohibit offensive statements or ridicule and it only applies to certain identifiable groups, identified by religion, race, color, by ethnicity or by sexual orientation.”

Edward Greenspan, another prominent legal expert, told JTA that he thinks the law does more than simply pose an intellectual problem. To lock up Ahenakew “for mere speech is, in my mind, contrary to the liberal notions of a real democracy,” he said. He added that hate speech trials, as in the cases of Zundel and Keegstra, often provide toxic racists a platform they covet. “Why should these hatemongers get an opportunity to appear before a jury and argue that the Holocaust didn’t happen?” Greenspan asked.

Sanjeev Anand, a law professor at the University of Alberta, disagrees with those who are worried about the law’s restrictive effect on free speech or the potential platform trials afford to hate mongers."

https://www.jta.org/2005/04/26/life-religion/features/canadian-trial-focuses-on-hate-speech

 

[Sherlockhemlock]

He has never shown any tendencies towards anger or violence to her or others. It’s reaching to even consider that. Furthermore if he had killed her, he would not have been in the mindset or need to move her and stage it.

 

[Sherlockhemlock]

Those types of mob killings are the ones they want you to know about. That is a message. This is a different message.JMO

Exactly. This seems like a hit with “extras “ like watching her die then killing him or making them both suffer. Which suggests revenge.

 

[gdalton]

Greenspan is informally assisting the family. And, rightly so....if these were my parents, I would want every possible stone uncovered. I feel for the family...how traumatic!

I feel for the family...but this effectively neuters the official Police investigation.
The family is basically saying "We won't accept any finding less than double murder".
They might even know more than they let on...buy it'll never be made public.
As a result, we'll probably never see an official case conclusion.

 

[Tortoise]

Here is the main floor

and lower floor

side by side. I see "lift"in the kitchen, but that looks too small for people - looks more like a dumbwaiter that ends up in the master bedroom dressing room.​

Thanks. So I was correct that the pool and most of the garage isn't underneath the house.

If someone saw that photo of the pool in the sales particulars, and they were looking for a way of murdering the couple to give the impression it was suicide, there are very few possibilities in that pool room. Hanging, it has to be by the railings at the far end. Drowning, how is a person to get a couple to drown without getting in the water too, injuring them in the process and making it look like murder. Leaving them in a fume filled car, a neighbour or person in the house might hear the engine running and one murderer can't keep control of both sides of the car, so at least one of the couple could open the car doors or windows unless they were restrained, showing outside intervention. I think the choice of railings was more a matter of availability and practicality of a place to hang than shock value. Even in this carefully laid plan it seems they still had difficulty dealing with two people without incapacitating Honey first.

Although I think it was a professional hit, I also think it wasn't to send out a message or warning. That would be to leave them both looking obviously murdered. It was to get him out of the way IMO. Honey couldn't be allowed to live because she was a witness. I suspect this was opportunity based on perfect circumstances, rather than choice that she be there. I'll avoid specifics but I can see where he had a lot of influence.

Even if it comes back as murder/suicide I will still think someone was clever enough to get away with double murder. As I said before Barry may even have chosen to do it to himself, under threat of what was being done to Honey.

All my personal opinion.​

 

[Sarahlou]

He has never shown any tendencies towards anger or violence to her or others. It’s reaching to even consider that. Furthermore if he had killed her, he would not have been in the mindset or need to move her and stage it.

People don't have to have shown violence before. You never know what is going on in someone's mind or if something has happened to change them.

I understand why their children would want a full investigation but I also think they would never want to accept their father killed their mother - if that is the case.

 

[Canterbury Tales]

I feel for the family...but this effectively neuters the official Police investigation.
The family is basically saying "We won't accept any finding less than double murder".
They might even know more than they let on...buy it'll never be made public.
As a result, we'll probably never see an official case conclusion.

Good for them. I would do the same if it were me in their position. I'm often the first person to point the finger at the husband in these type of crimes but not in this case. Based on what we do know, I find it almost impossible to believe this was a murder-suicide. My gut tells me that son of a b cousin Kerry is behind this whole thing but the problem is the authorities have to prove it and he seemingly covered his tracks with this well-thought-out staged plan. I think when he lost the last court battle in September and the judge basically mocked his claim, he snapped and figured, "I'll get you and have the last laugh.".

 

[NaanOfYourBusiness]

JMO. The jackets: If you hung yourself the jackets would have been off in an effort to free yourself.Unless whoever murdered them had bound them over their jackets.
Since the railings are by the pool, and I'm assuming the pool was full due to the open house, they would have been wet due to the railings being in close proximity to it.
I was leaning towards the cousins as having hired someone.
With what I've seen on the internet about their international connections to other world leaders. I'm leaning towards way higher up the power chain although I have no definitive proof.
I'm proposing that it was a hired hit with a message that we just don't know yet.
It was a few threads back, but I think most definitely it was through that garage.
Someone on here had said they could have driven in with the Shermans.
You also all know that garage doors with a code can be opened with a remote. People drive by homes with these coded garages all the time with remotes to see if they will open.
At my day job, people give me their access codes . Please change your codes regularly, especially after a home service.
This was IMO. No suicide, no suicide-murder. Just plain murder.

I agree. I feel this sounds like a hired hit to send a message .... this means someone(s) out there KNOW WHAT THE MESSAGE IS.
... and are probably taking some form of action in response (ie. go on the run, pack up and leave, drop that pesky law suit, settle the debt quickly or plan for retribution, etc.)

 

[Grey-St]

I feel for the family...but this effectively neuters the official Police investigation.
The family is basically saying "We won't accept any finding less than double murder".
They might even know more than they let on...buy it'll never be made public.
As a result, we'll probably never see an official case conclusion.

bbm. I don't think that's what the family is saying at all. I think they want to pursue every possible avenue to to find the answers they seek. If this truly is a murder/suicide, or a suicide/suicide, there's a huge "why" component that TPS isn't obligated to provide.

If I were to ever find myself in a similar position, and had the resources this family does, I would likely do the same. TPS are not the be all and end all.

 

[JDG]

Here is the main floor

and lower floor

side by side. I see "lift"in the kitchen, but that looks too small for people - looks more like a dumbwaiter that ends up in the master bedroom dressing room.​

Those floor plans are not to scale (no proper measurements) and they have stamped on them that they are for illustrative purposes only.

That makes it very hard to judge exactly where the 'lift' and the 'spiral staircase' are exactly.

When I looked at them last night, the spiral staircase seems to be different distances from the other staircase, depending on which floor you are looking at.​