Where Do You Think Teresa Halbach was Killed?

[Karinna]

Karinna, earlier you said

"if the bullet had entered and exited her skull as the State claimed at Mr. Avery's trial."

Once again, the State never said a bullet EXITED her skull.

If I'm wrong here then please give me a video or a text in which you can hear/read Kratz, Fallon, Gahn literally say that the bullet exited her skull. I doubt you'll be able to find one.

On the other hand, the State surely did claim she was shot. They claimed Avery shot her with his own rifle and his lead coated bullets, as evidenced by the entrance defects in her skull and lead traces. There were no exit defects though, so the State could not say the bullets ever exited. Zellner is wrong when she said the State said the bullets EXITED her skull.

Yes i posted that from the PC motion KZ had submitted to the court.. Sorry, i wasn't sure what you were asking me to prove, LOL.
Maybe she was getting her point across in her own way in that if TH was shot in the head with a .22 bullet, it would be highly unlikely to have exited the skull. And if that is the case, how did it end up to be in that part of the garage where it was found? If a bullet didn't/couldn't exit, it would definitely not have been found in the garage at all, but would of stayed lodged in TH's skull. So yeah, i can see what KZ is doing there with that statement. She's good IMO.

 

[ACJL]

I suspected as much No problem.

Maybe she was. But she did say the State claimed as much, and she was wrong. Personally I think she said that on purpose, knowing she was wrong, but that's just IMO. She also said the State claimed it was the bullet "FL" that went through her skull, iirc, but again, the State never made such a claim.

We don't know when bullet FL was fired and where it was aimed at. Obviously not at her skull, because it didn't have exit defects. Her stomach doesn't have bone material to prevent it from exiting, so maybe it was fired through her stomach. Maybe it was a grazing shot. Maybe it had already come to rest before the 31st and caught some DNA of TH when she was there. Who knows. All we know is that her DNA is on it and that it was fired from Steven's rifle, found in his garage, and now there also seems to be wood on it.

 

[Karinna]

I suspected as much No problem.

Maybe she was. But she did say the State claimed as much, and she was wrong. Personally I think she said that on purpose, knowing she was wrong, but that's just IMO. She also said the State claimed it was the bullet "FL" that went through her skull, iirc, but again, the State never made such a claim.

We don't know when bullet FL was fired and where it was aimed at. Obviously not at her skull, because it didn't have exit defects. Her stomach doesn't have bone material to prevent it from exiting, so maybe it was fired through her stomach. Maybe it was a grazing shot. Maybe it had already come to rest before the 31st and caught some DNA of TH when she was there. Who knows. All we know is that her DNA is on it and that it was fired from Steven's rifle, found in his garage, and now there also seems to be wood on it.

There was only one bullet fragment claimed to have TH's DNA on it. The rest of whatever bullet fragments were found in the garage didn't make contact with TH, because there was no other DNA of hers found on any of it. And it is mere speculation to state all the bullet fragments found in the garage were even fired on the same day, because it can't be proven to have any evidentiary value, IMO.

 

[missy1974]

I recall discussing the bullets at length somewhere in these threads, no clue where or which one lol But I do recall that it everyone was pretty much on the same page that if she was shot in the head, they would not have exited, so the question became, where were those bullets?

Newhouse testified that they were not just lead bullets, they were copper coated, and like ACJL points out, copper has a melting point much higher than lead, and according to my friend, google haha, it is 1,981°F/1082°C. I'm not sure if it was ever determined what the rivets and zipper pull was made of.

 

[missy1974]

Karinna ~ ACJL is right on this one, Kratz never directly said that the bullet they found was the bullet that killed her, it was heavily implied IIRC in his opening/closing statements, which of course is not testimony.

Just because Zellner said it, doesn't make it true ;-) Although I still think that ultimately Zellner will do her thing with this case, she has made some mistakes, some big ones. The fact that she didn't let the court know that her and the State were still agreeing on additional testing, etc, but did let a reporter know, was a huge mistake and has set this back even longer that it needed to be. JMO of course! There is some speculation out there that the reason KZ has asked for another extension (to May 21st now) is because she has additional information and will again file another motion for reconsideration, which will put that information on the State court file for the appeal she has filed or whatever.

 

[CoolJ]

I don't know how much of the State's theory I believe tbh, but I agree with them that Steven is the most likely murderer of Teresa. He is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

I don't care when the bullet was found. The previous entries only contained one proper search, and I believe no items were moved then. When the bullet was found that was the first time items were moved out of the garage. I think this is a valid reason why they didn't find the bullet before.

Also, Manitowoc cops are always the cops accused with planting evidence, but not the rifle, nor the bullet, has ever been placed in possession of a Manitowoc cop. Lenk wasn't ever seen inside the garage either and there were no footprints in the snow indicating someone was inside there before the bullet was found.

I think Teresa was killed by Steven with his gun because:

1) a bullet with her DNA on it was found in Steven's garage
2) the bullet was determined to have been fired from Steven's rifle
3) a brownish-reddish stain was found in Steven's garage behind the lawnmower.
4) Brendan Dassey, without being coerced, drew a picture of the garage scene and placed Teresa behind the lawnmower and her blood spatter right at the same spot where the reddish-stain was found.
5) Before it became "brownish-red" it was a "red fluid".
6) Steven and Brendan both lied about their activities on the 31st and removed themselves from the crime scene before it was determined as the crime scene.
7) Teresa's skull had only entrance defects, no exit defects.
8) The damage to her skull was caused by a "high energy projectile", according to Kenneth Olson's testimony. (not a blunt object, like Zellner is claiming now)
9) Olson also detected the presence of lead in the cranial remains.
10) Steven used lead coated bullets.
11) There wasn't blood spatter in the garage, which seems to be consistent with someone having been killed by a weapon that doesn't have the power to create exit wounds.

I don't know how many times she was shot. I know two bullets were found in the garage and there were two entrance defects in her skull and lead was found embedded in her skull. So about four times I guess. But at least two times, since that is what her cremains indicate.

All the blood in the garage was all in that 4'x3' sized red fluid spot. The rifle Steven possessed, a .22 caliber rifle, didn't have the power to fire a bullet through a skull. Exit wounds are the wounds that cause blood spatter and stuff like that. An entrance wound only creates a tiny hole through which blood drips out. There would not have been a lot of blood. It was easily cleaned by Steven and Brendan.

There was only DNA found away from the area behind the lawnmower. If there was DNA behind the lawnmower it was removed due to the combination of gasoline, paint thinner and especially bleach.

Yes, I have seen this copy and pasted list before. It is disengenous at best and purposefully deceptive at worst.

So let’s get this straight.

You are saying TH was shot in the garage 2-4 times but there was no blood spatter. Of course I did see in another post where you talk about the possibility of blood spatter. So you completely contradict yourself in two separate posts.
So, no dna of TH in the garage whatsoever. A 4x3 sized red fluid spot but no dna whatsoever?
So what you are saying here is that TH was shot to death in the garage and the bullet exited the body but no DNA other than what is on the bullet? They tore that garage apart down to digging up the ground and still no dna whatsoever.

So SA was able to clean up every microscopic piece of evidence in the garage and the trailer but he missed the bullet used to murder her and placed the murder weapon (which he didn’t even own- you forgot to mention that) back on the mantle above his bed and left it there even after Colbourn came snooping around on Nov 3.

I would suggest you rethink your interpretation of “the facts” and apply some common sense to it. It doesn’t make one ounce of sense.

 

[CoolJ]

I suspected as much No problem.

Maybe she was. But she did say the State claimed as much, and she was wrong. Personally I think she said that on purpose, knowing she was wrong, but that's just IMO. She also said the State claimed it was the bullet "FL" that went through her skull, iirc, but again, the State never made such a claim.

We don't know when bullet FL was fired and where it was aimed at. Obviously not at her skull, because it didn't have exit defects. Her stomach doesn't have bone material to prevent it from exiting, so maybe it was fired through her stomach. Maybe it was a grazing shot. Maybe it had already come to rest before the 31st and caught some DNA of TH when she was there. Who knows. All we know is that her DNA is on it and that it was fired from Steven's rifle, found in his garage, and now there also seems to be wood on it.

How do you know the skull didn’t have exit defects?

Maybe this, maybe that. Too many maybes leads to reasonable doubt.

 

[CoolJ]

I recall discussing the bullets at length somewhere in these threads, no clue where or which one lol But I do recall that it everyone was pretty much on the same page that if she was shot in the head, they would not have exited, so the question became, where were those bullets?

Newhouse testified that they were not just lead bullets, they were copper coated, and like ACJL points out, copper has a melting point much higher than lead, and according to my friend, google haha, it is 1,981°F/1082°C. I'm not sure if it was ever determined what the rivets and zipper pull was made of.

It doesn’t matter missy. The bullet was allegedly found in the garage which means the states theory is that the bullet exited her body. If the bullet exited her body there would be blood spatter. There was no evidence of any of TH blood or DNA in that garage other than on the bullet that was found 4 months later after W and F told Brendan TH was shot in the head.

I’m sorry, but I just don’t believe anyone genuinely can believethe states narrative once you really look deep into this case. MaM doesn’t even cover half of it. The real dirt is in the details.

 

[missy1974]

How do you know the skull didn’t have exit defects?

Maybe this, maybe that. Too many maybes leads reasonable doubt.

this is true, since they didn't have the skull intact and I'm not sure all pieces were accounted for. I do think that "IF", big "IF" (because I am not convinced it was a bullet entrance wound) it was a 22 rifle/bullet, it doesn't have enough power to exit the skull. So if that is the case, there are 2 fragments that didn't just melt in the fire.

 

[missy1974]

It doesn’t matter missy. The bullet was allegedly found in the garage which means the states theory is that the bullet exited her body. If the bullet exited her body there would be blood spatter. There was no evidence of any of TH blood or DNA in that garage other than on the bullet that was found 4 months later after W and F told Brendan TH was shot in the head.

I’m sorry, but I just don’t believe anyone genuinely can believethe states narrative once you really look deep into this case. MaM doesn’t even cover half of it. The real dirt is in the details.

I agree CoolJ, the lack of any blood spatter is ridiculous.

Even in the cleaned up area... so bleach splashed up onto Brendan's jeans, but nope, no blood splattered when he poured it or was swooshing it around with a rag on the floor? No blood in the trailer. No blood spatter from the 11 shots in the garage. I know we have discussed the "stain" before too, SA and BD manage to clean that spot, but yet, were smart enough to determine which blood drops in the garage belonged to SA and/or an animal, and left them. logic... logic... logic!

The only blood spatter anywhere is on the cargo door of the RAV4.

 

[proudfootz]

I recall discussing the bullets at length somewhere in these threads, no clue where or which one lol But I do recall that it everyone was pretty much on the same page that if she was shot in the head, they would not have exited, so the question became, where were those bullets?

Newhouse testified that they were not just lead bullets, they were copper coated, and like ACJL points out, copper has a melting point much higher than lead, and according to my friend, google haha, it is 1,981°F/1082°C. I'm not sure if it was ever determined what the rivets and zipper pull was made of.

If Teresa was shot, the lead from the bullets would still be wherever the body was burned - even if it melted.

That no bullets, or lead from bullets, or copper jackets from bullets, were recovered from Avery's fire pit is evidence the body wasn't burned there.

MOO

 

[ACJL]

How do you know the skull didn’t have exit defects?

Maybe this, maybe that. Too many maybes leads to reasonable doubt.

Because none were found and because a .22 caliber rifle like Steven's didn't have the power to do that, and because lead was embedded inside her skull, indicating the bullets never left.

 

[ACJL]

If Teresa was shot, the lead from the bullets would still be wherever the body was burned - even if it melted.

That no bullets, or lead from bullets, or copper jackets from bullets, were recovered from Avery's fire pit is evidence the body wasn't burned there.

MOO

Except there were traces of lead found in her skull

 

[ACJL]

There was only one bullet fragment claimed to have TH's DNA on it. The rest of whatever bullet fragments were found in the garage didn't make contact with TH, because there was no other DNA of hers found on any of it. And it is mere speculation to state all the bullet fragments found in the garage were even fired on the same day, because it can't be proven to have any evidentiary value, IMO.

Yes, like I said, nobody knows anything about the bullet other than they were fired from Steven's rifle and contained wood and TH's DNA.

 

[ACJL]

Yes, I have seen this copy and pasted list before. It is disengenous at best and purposefully deceptive at worst.

So let’s get this straight.

You are saying TH was shot in the garage 2-4 times but there was no blood spatter. Of course I did see in another post where you talk about the possibility of blood spatter. So you completely contradict yourself in two separate posts.
So, no dna of TH in the garage whatsoever. A 4x3 sized red fluid spot but no dna whatsoever?
So what you are saying here is that TH was shot to death in the garage and the bullet exited the body but no DNA other than what is on the bullet? They tore that garage apart down to digging up the ground and still no dna whatsoever.

So SA was able to clean up every microscopic piece of evidence in the garage and the trailer but he missed the bullet used to murder her and placed the murder weapon (which he didn’t even own- you forgot to mention that) back on the mantle above his bed and left it there even after Colbourn came snooping around on Nov 3.

I would suggest you rethink your interpretation of “the facts” and apply some common sense to it. It doesn’t make one ounce of sense.

Except that it's not a copy/pasted list. I just wrote it myself yesterday.

It is not purposefully deceptive at worst at all and also not disingenious. It is honest. Don't say such things.

Yes I did speculate she could've been shot in the stomach and the bullet would've been able to exit then. Yes. She was lying on the floor though, so again, that would not result in blood spatter all over the garage.

Yes the red fluid was cleaned with bleach, gasoline and paint thinner, which destroys DNA.

The DNA on the bullet was never examined for a source. Nobody knows what the source of the DNA on the bullet is. Maybe it was blood. Maybe it wasn't.

Yes, SA and BD were able to clean up every piece of DNA confided to that 4x3 sized red fluid. It doesn't sound very hard to do that. The spot is easy to see and not very large. They dug up the ground to pick up bullet FK if I remember correctly.

Steven possessed the rifle. It was owned by Rollie Johnson, but Steven possessed it. It doesn't really matter someone else owned it, which is why I didn't mention it.

 

[ACJL]

It doesn’t matter missy. The bullet was allegedly found in the garage which means the states theory is that the bullet exited her body. If the bullet exited her body there would be blood spatter. There was no evidence of any of TH blood or DNA in that garage other than on the bullet that was found 4 months later after W and F told Brendan TH was shot in the head.

I’m sorry, but I just don’t believe anyone genuinely can believethe states narrative once you really look deep into this case. MaM doesn’t even cover half of it. The real dirt is in the details.

Could you provide me with a plausible narrative of the "real killer" then?

 

[proudfootz]

Except there were traces of lead found in her skull

That may be true, but the missing bullets is evidence the body was not burned at any of the locations on the Avery property.

We have the buckets which indicate the cremains were moved to those locations.

That, combined with the lack of a 'scene of the crime' in the places we know Steven was when the crimes allegedly occurred points to his innocence.

 

[ACJL]

That may be true, but the missing bullets is evidence the body was not burned at any of the locations on the Avery property.

We have the buckets which indicate the cremains were moved to those locations.

That, combined with the lack of a 'scene of the crime' in the places we know Steven was when the crimes allegedly occurred points to his innocence.

The burn pit itself was never investigated for traces of lead. All the cops ever tried to collect was anything that looked like bone or belongings of Teresa. Steven had everything at his disposal to kill Halbach the way she was killed.

Did the buckets contain bone material or anything else that links them to being used on the crime scene?

 

[proudfootz]

If the fire pit was never competently investigated, then we have good reason to be skeptical of claims any body was burned there.

 

[guruagain]

If the fire pit was never competently investigated, then we have good reason to be skeptical of claims any body was burned there.

Yep - crazy no proper burn pit investigation was done. Personally I don't believe anything was ever in the burn pit and I can think like that because well there isn't any actual evidence of them coming from the burn pit, a box of bones just turned up on a desk! Would body fats and fluids soak into the earth under the fire does anyone know?