CA - Hannah,16,Devonte,15,&Ciera Hart,12 (fnd deceased),Mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #6

[1Northstar]

That just made something come together for me (I admit I’m not the fastest sleuth on this site). I have not been able to figure out why they would dump Hannah & Devonte’s bodies separately if they were all gonna die anyway. But what if those two had the most physical evidence of long term abuse? The way it currently stands, some people can believe this was just a dire situation rather than that they engaged in systematic, soul-crushing abuse.

IMO Maybe the felt Hannah and Devonte betrayed them and didn't deserve to be a part of the group? Not sure of the circumstances, but I do think the separation was intentional.

 

[bluesneakers]

Not leaving a note could mean it was a murder suicide with no note (67 % leave no note right? )
or it could just mean it wasnt a suicide. So I :dunno: either.

Yes, you're correct - not leaving a note doesn't make one scenario more or less likely. People often get hung up on the lack of a note as if it means something, or they assume most people who attempt/complete suicide leave notes. Since many suicide attempts are impulsive it means there's not a lot of time to write it all out and say goodbye beforehand.

My shrug smilie - I just meant you had problems with the 30% vs 25% estimate on notes. I said "about 25%" so I'm not sure why it was an issue, but nbd. eace:

Suicide often not preceded by warnings

More than 100 Americans commit suicide every day. It’s the tenth leading cause of death overall; third among 15- to 24-year-olds and fourth among 25- to 44-year-olds.

Although some people who commit suicide have an identifiable mental health problem, like depression or addiction, others don’t. Some talk about wanting or planning to kill themselves or give other hints, others don’t. The decision to do it might be made just minutes or hours before that act.

But when individuals suddenly take their own lives with no warning, all we can do is look to each other for support. It may be natural to ask, “What did I miss?” But we should remind ourselves what experts say: This kind of death defies prediction.

Since Jen and Sarah were so isolated I doubt we'll ever know if they showed any warning signs.

 

[kizzykat]

What strikes me as really bizarre is that Chapel by the Sea is located in Ft. Bragg. And they have no services listed for anyone.

They may have taken it upon themselves to publish these obits on their website.

Jen adopted her first children in 2006. Granted new math may be different, but last I checked 2006 to 2018 was 12 years, not 16.

When this first occurred I saw a remembrance type post on IG for Devonte, and the person's location was Mendocino. Seems like they knew at least one person in the area, so maybe a local friend did the obits? Still, the obits seem rather...impersonal? So maybe the chapel did them.

 

[Kajol85]

You're right, I'm not. And others have also chimed in about the alleged drug use at these festivals and the prevalence.

LE has not offered any evidence to support that the children had anything other than Benedryl in their systems at the time of death.

Well doubt they would, as they hadn't been to a festival in a year or more. Most of those drugs wouldn't stay in the system for that long. We are all speculating here.

 

[gtbkloretta]

Yes.....I believe Devonte and Hannah would be resourceful enough to survive if the conditions were right and they were able to escape. I'm not convinced that J&S would have taken alot of time to try and find them but instead would have panicked and came up with their ultimate plan. I think D&H would be petrified to reappear not knowing what would happen to them and having a fear of the police. Also, if there are people in that area who also try to avoid police, they may be willing to hide D&H. D&H are teens and not far from being able to be independent and could probably disappear into an alternate lifestyle community until they come of age. J&S managed to convince many in their circle that they were protecting the children from CPS, and all those "lgbtq haters" and "racists" who were out to get them. I know that there are some off the grid types who are equally allergic to any form of LE who would gladly "protect" the children.

From my experience there, I would say yes, there are lots of homeless people and fringe characters around town. As for breaking into summer properties, some are very isolated, so it could be possible. Do you mean the children?

 

[Shiressleuth]

https://edition-m.cnn.com/2018/04/13/us/hart-family-child-protective-services-reports/index.html

Try this one.

Do you have a link/source to where the neighbours definitively saying that 2 adults and all 6 children got into the car?


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IIRC the neighbors (DeKalbs) saw CPS arrive, no one opened the door. They noticed the family and Yukon were gone the next morning.


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[gitana1]

<modsnip>

I am curious why people pretend there is no drug use at hippie&#8221; festivals?

I don;t think anyone is saying it doesn't exist. But people are acting like it's neglect to take kids to such festivals and events or involve them in such a subculture when kids are exposed to much more danger at a local fair or monster truck rally or even in some cases, church.

Yes there have been some scary cults in which kids have been abused. That's just not the norm per those of us who grew up in the culture. Alcohol abuse, prescription drug use, meth and violence wreak more havoc on children historically than peaceful "hippies" stoned or tripping or not.

It just seems like thinly veiled disdain for counter-culture people and prejudice that such people are child abusers or dangerous when in my experience that's far from the truth.

Bear with me here because I want to make a general point. Jen and Sarah Hart were bad people and bad parents but not, IMO because they took their kids to protests or music festivals. Not because they were lesbians. Not because they were political. Not because they adopted kids of another ethnic background. Not because they home schooled.

They were bad parents because their motivations were their own interests, never their children's and because they abused their kids and murdered them.

 

[human]

Yes.....I believe Devonte and Hannah would be resourceful enough to survive if the conditions were right and they were able to escape. I'm not convinced that J&S would have taken alot of time to try and find them but instead would have panicked and came up with their ultimate plan. I think D&H would be petrified to reappear not knowing what would happen to them and having a fear of the police. Also, if there are people in that area who also try to avoid police, they may be willing to hide D&H. D&H are teens and not far from being able to be independent and could probably disappear into an alternate lifestyle community until they come of age. J&S managed to convince many in their circle that they were protecting the children from CPS, and all those "lgbtq haters" and "racists" who were out to get them. I know that there are some off the grid types who are equally allergic to any form of LE who would gladly "protect" the children.

So the children ran away when in California? Hard to imagine they would have a clue about roads, houses, etc.

 

[1Northstar]

Any people with backgrounds on child development, I have some questions.

Given the isolation these kids were subjected to, for almost 7 years, how would that affect their adolescent stage?

I keep reading people posting about these kids becoming rebellious as teens, but my gut says they would not be.They have had no peer relationships, and apparent minimal interaction with peers outside of their siblings. Most of their limited interactions seem to have been with adults, and most likely they were hearing what a wonderful job their parents were doing and how loving they were towards the kids. If this is true, it would have created a very warped and conflicted sense of love within these kids.

Markis was 7 when he was adopted and 12 when he was pulled out of school. Of all the kids, he had the longest interaction and exposure to the outside world and developing relationships. Sierra, as the youngest, was still a baby when she was adopted. I'm guessing she did not attend preschool. She would have been in kindergarten when she was pulled from public school and "homeschooling began.

These kids did not have age peers to model behaviors. We have no idea if these kids watched TV or movies that might help shape their attitudes and self-images.

If the recent reports about Jen's bad year around May 2017 are true, followed by their move to Woodland where the family rarely went out, then these past two years had to be extreme isolation.

Off the the top of my head...Teens and their brains are much different than adults. I'm citing my knowledge from my Masters coursework in youth studies.

Teens develop a strong sense of morality, penchant for justice and honoring what they feel is right vs wrong.

Teens are not prone to thinking and assessing risks in the manner that a healthy adult brain may do. This might lead to more "risky" behavior that can be negative or positive but often puzzling to adults.

 

[human]

I don;t want to derail the thread with off topic stuff. Suffice it to say I strongly disagree with your conclusions about that case.



I don;t think anyone is saying it doesn't exist. But people are acting like it's neglect to take kids to such festivals and events or involve them in such a subculture when kids are exposed to much more danger at a local fair or monster truck rally or even in some cases, church.

Yes there have been some scary cults in which kids have been abused. That's just not the norm per those of us who grew up in the culture. Alcohol abuse, prescription drug use, meth and violence wreak more havoc on children historically than peaceful "hippies" stoned or tripping or not.

It just seems like thinly veiled disdain for counter-culture people and prejudice that such people are child abusers or dangerous when in my experience that's far from the truth.

Bear with me here because I want to make a general point. Jen and Sarah Hart were bad people and bad parents but not, IMO because they took their kids to protests or music festivals. Not because they were lesbians. Not because they were political. Not because they adopted kids of another ethnic background. Not because they home schooled.

They were bad parents because their motivations were their own interests, never their children's and because they abused their kids and murdered them.

Here are the pictures of Devonte and alcohol . You can read comments, I think, if you press on the pic. 88 pics.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2018/04/devonte_hart_family_crash_dece.html

 

[gitana1]

<modsnip>

Just like any group, "hippies" live a variety of lifestyles. Some are new age and reject drug use, opting to be "high on life". Some use nothing other than organics, ie, marijuana and mushrooms. Some stick to alcohol, and a few do other kinds of drugs ie LSD. Since J & S chose alcohol and benedryl for the last ride, I would assume that they weren't frequent users of other drugs. Alcohol and benedryl aren't the "go to's" for frequent drug users. IMO

Good point. If they were drug users they likely would;ve had access to other drugs to use not alcohol and benadryl.

 

[Kajol85]

Yes, Gitana you are right. Alcohol cause some really crazy and violent situations. I would much prefer to be around a bunch of people happily and peacefully toking away.

I guess what is really doing my head in, is that the Hart women appeared to be so peaceful and loving, care for the earth, standing rock, progressive, animal loving ... yet we know there were claims of abuse going back a decade.

Maybe we will never know the full story but there seems to be such a darkness there, like we are just scratching the surface

 

[human]

I don;t want to derail the thread with off topic stuff. Suffice it to say I strongly disagree with your conclusions about that case.



I don;t think anyone is saying it doesn't exist. But people are acting like it's neglect to take kids to such festivals and events or involve them in such a subculture when kids are exposed to much more danger at a local fair or monster truck rally or even in some cases, church.

Yes there have been some scary cults in which kids have been abused. That's just not the norm per those of us who grew up in the culture. Alcohol abuse, prescription drug use, meth and violence wreak more havoc on children historically than peaceful "hippies" stoned or tripping or not.

It just seems like thinly veiled disdain for counter-culture people and prejudice that such people are child abusers or dangerous when in my experience that's far from the truth.

Bear with me here because I want to make a general point. Jen and Sarah Hart were bad people and bad parents but not, IMO because they took their kids to protests or music festivals. Not because they were lesbians. Not because they were political. Not because they adopted kids of another ethnic background. Not because they home schooled.

They were bad parents because their motivations were their own interests, never their children's and because they abused their kids and murdered them.

Funny how people interpret things differently. I was interpreting it that these festivals could not possibly have issues. That the children could not possibly experience anything not suitable .

As you say, church and school and sports and on and on can have perverts. The festivals and &#8220;hippies&#8221; are not different. Think of Mr. So Not Hippie himself, Charles Manson.

 

[Kajol85]

<modsnip>

Good point. If they were drug users they likely would;ve had access to other drugs to use not alcohol and benadryl.

Why not? Benedryl is cheap, OTC and easy to get, it wouldn't raise any alarms to purchase. Also people do use it to get high

http://www.wilx.com/home/headlines/More-Teens-Abusing-Benadryl-283323501.html

 

[gitana1]

Here are the pictures of Devonte and alcohol . You can read comments, I think, if you lress on the pic. 88 pics.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2018/04/devonte_hart_family_crash_dece.html

Thank you!!

Ok. I can;t see the comments and tried to find them on FB but couldn't . It's photos 12 and 79. The photos themselves don't alarm me. They were drinking something out of martini glasses. If the parents made a joke about them drinking or getting drunk I don;t really care. It indicates nothing but silliness IMO. I don;t think they would post the inebriation of underage ids. Especially as they've been reported to CPS so many times.

I'm more concerned with how many adults seemed to use these kids in photo ops and shoots. I feel these children were very exploited because of who and what they represented.

Final thought, these kids were stunning beauties. It is super hard to look at those faces and know they will never get to grow up. Astoundingly terrible.

 

[human]

Yes, Gitana you are right. Alcohol cause some really crazy and violent situations. I would much prefer to be around a bunch of people happily and peacefully toking away.

I guess what is really doing my head in, is that the Hart women appeared to be so peaceful and loving, care for the earth, standing rock, progressive, animal loving ... yet we know there were claims of abuse going back a decade.

Maybe we will never know the full story but there seems to be such a darkness there, like we are just scratching the surface

I have been a part of but not really the alternative movement since the 60&#8217;s. War protests, organic food, boycotts,civil rights, women&#8217;s rights, on and on. But not in immersion. I do not like big crowds. Do not like music festivals. Do not like drugs ( saw too much of what happened to people in the 60&#8217;s).

So I know lots and lots of people. 50 plus years.

Some are as phony as three dollar bills . Opportunists fo the max. Think sweat lodge for one. Fake healing. Think the Ghost Ship for recent example of the type of people.These are the true cons.

Then there are the rest of us. Flawed but trying, or not always,

I think they were into the con aspect. Maybe because they found acceptance in this group? And some people like to be &#8220;different&#8221;.

People want to believe so badly. They want to believe there are magic healing foods, treatments, lights, numbers, waves, whatever. They want to think they have an in to the universe, They are special and profound.

The Harts got to be that to a lot of people. Most people are busy with their own lives. They take things at face value.

That is why it blows my mind that they were so abusive at Alexandra&#8217;s house. And the grabbing of the wrist by Sarah. I wonder what people saw and dismissed?

 

[Kajol85]

For the record I have no problem with hippies, consider myself one, tbh.

I really don't see the bashing of hippes <modsnip>

 

[Shiressleuth]

Here are the pictures of Devonte and alcohol . You can read comments, I think, if you press on the pic. 88 pics.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2018/04/devonte_hart_family_crash_dece.html

That's a really good article. TY for finding and posting.

Does anyone know what LE process for this will be? Will they eventually make a decision about exactly what they believe happened?

 

[human]

Thank you!!

Ok. I can;t see the comments and tried to find them on FB but couldn't . It's photos 12 and 79. The photos themselves don't alarm me. They were drinking something out of martini glasses. If the parents made a joke about them drinking or getting drunk I don;t really care. It indicates nothing but silliness IMO. I don;t think they would post the inebriation of underage ids. Especially as they've been reported to CPS so many times.

I'm more concerned with how many adults seemed to use these kids in photo ops and shoots. I feel these children were very exploited because of who and what they represented.

Final thought, these kids were stunning beauties. It is super hard to look at those faces and know they will never get to grow up. Astoundingly terrible.

It freaks me out because coming from MN where I think we are or were number three in alcoholism, the hardest to treat are teens because of peer issues. And the age you start drinking inhibits emotional development.

So much on this issue probably because of our state and the neighboring one, Wisconsin which used to be number one.

 

[fridaybaker]

Here are the pictures of Devonte and alcohol . You can read comments, I think, if you press on the pic. 88 pics.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2018/04/devonte_hart_family_crash_dece.html

Such lovely children! However, the more photos/videos I see, the more I'm really turned off by the focus on Devonte and lack of such for the others. Again, I'm not sure what it means, lacking more information about their personalities. On the face of it, though, I can't help but get the feeling that he's just the center of their life (for whatever reason.) The others merely orbit around him. Supporting cast...