Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #8

[Ktblair]

PS, Trial Watcher....

I'm pretty handy with my phone, but yikes, I couldn't and wouldn't and am not using a phone to tackle this large project of typing up & integrating months' worth of texts and journals, etc. :O

This has been amazing hope4more

 

[salberg7]

I don’t think Travis was free from what occurred during his childhood, Trial Watcher. While he did try to to move forward and play it positive, he had a huge problem with commitment. He didn’t marry Deanna & they broke up because of it. He had a broken engagement.Travis had emotional problems as well that were probably residual from his childhood. He went through women like chicklets. Emotionally he was very immature. And very conflicted. How could Travis NOT have known the reason he lost Lisa was b/o the killer? He needed Chris Hughes to tell him that? He was almost 30 years old. Lisa had broken up with him once before for his continuing relationship with the .
The killer wasn’t the only one he had sex with. Chiatlayna (sp?) was another-Conflicted. Wasn’t this his second Temple Recommend for sex as well?
All the more why his killer was able to manipulate him because of his vulnerabilities. I think that, however weird, they had a bond of some kind in the beginning but he lost interest, true to form for Travis. Yes she played him regarding him being her “religious mentor” but she wore out her welcome. All she had to offer him was sex, and occasionally he took her up on it, but not as much as she would have us think. He really didn’t have a long attention span with women- always on to the next one. He was a player, as Skye & Chris said.
Travis and the killer were “the perfect storm”. For whatever reason (sex?) he couldn’t let go until two or three months before she killed him and that was too late.

 

[Ktblair]

I read something about him not wanting to testify for anymore because he had gotten married. Wonder if he was in a relationship while helping ?

MM is an intriguing part of the puzzle. So many unknowns around him. So many questions.

 

[pocketaccent]

I'm not Tex but,
UMMMM.. My house smells amazing. Freshly roasted cashews..

 

[Hope4More]

I don’t think Travis was free from what occurred during his childhood, Trial Watcher. While he did try to to move forward and play it positive, he had a huge problem with commitment. He didn’t marry Deanna & they broke up because of it. He had a broken engagement.Travis had emotional problems as well that were probably residual from his childhood. He went through women like chicklets. Emotionally he was very immature. And very conflicted. How could Travis NOT have known the reason he lost Lisa was b/o the killer? He needed Chris Hughes to tell him that? He was almost 30 years old. Lisa had broken up with him once before for his continuing relationship with the .
The killer wasn’t the only one he had sex with. Chiatlayna (sp?) was another-Conflicted. Wasn’t this his second Temple Recommend for sex as well?
All the more why his killer was able to manipulate him because of his vulnerabilities. I think that, however weird, they had a bond of some kind in the beginning but he lost interest, true to form for Travis. Yes she played him regarding him being her “religious mentor” but she wore out her welcome. All she had to offer him was sex, and occasionally he took her up on it, but not as much as she would have us think. He really didn’t have a long attention span with women- always on to the next one. He was a player, as Skye & Chris said.
Travis and the killer were “the perfect storm”. For whatever reason (sex?) he couldn’t let go until two or three months before she killed him and that was too late.

With all due respect, Salberg7, BOO!

Travis had some kind of bond with to begin with , "then true to form, lost interest" ??

My goodness. Would that he HAD just lost interest and sent her packing and moved right on.

But wait. He TOLD ThE from the get go he wasn't ready to commit, that he was still trying to work out his feelings about Deanna, and especially, how devastated he felt about the damage he had done to Deanna by not being able to commit.

The manipulated him into a relationship he was clear he wasn't ready for, then (and beforehand, even) abused his trust, invaded his privacy, and did her utmost to isolate him from his friends and support network.

He ended their "relationship," she didn't, and when he did, she moved within spitting distance of him to control him, destroy him, CONSUME him for her own purposes.

Yes she used sex, and yes he had sex with her, and yes, I think it was way fewer times than the slimed him with so gleefully and despicably at trial, and yes, he "should" -in some completely abstract meaning of that word- have better understood what damage she was doing to him, earlier on, but NO, NO, NO his inability to cut her loose did not make him a user or a "player," and NO,NO, NO, read or reread the ENTIRE email exchange with Sky & Chris, who first ate those words the had primed them to tell Travis, and then apologized; and then go through the available texts and find one instance of Travis saying more or doing anything more than his style of harmless flirting BEFORE February 2008, when Travis was sinking and becoming desperate in multiple areas of his life, THANKS IN NO SMALL PART TO THE , who did everything she could to keep Travis from reaching shore.

Stopping here because steam is still rising, not subsiding.

 

[FelicityLemon]

It's a small thing, but it's just one more blatantly manipulative move to add onto her pile: "Can I sleep in your room tonight, I lost my room key" - SERIOUSLY? I'm pretty sure, that for several decades now, hotels (even motels) will either provide you with another key, or at the very least, let you into your own room. Also, it looked like CL was already in the room.

I learned long ago that when someone is trying to blackmail me by saying they'll harm or kill themselves (because they don't want me to leave them or get back together with them or whatever), I call 911 and "report them as a danger to themselves or others". A therapist told me this very useful phrase. It will either smarten up the manipulator or let the police decide whether the manipulator needs a psych hold for evaluation.

I just go crazy when I hear that good people let themselves be blackmailed this way. I wonder how it would have gone if TA had ever said even one time: "You feel like you want to die or kill yourself? Oh, , I'm so sorry to hear that, but you must do what you think is best for you. I can't do anything about it other than call 911 for you because I'm so worried."

 

[Hope4More]

It's a small thing, but it's just one more blatantly manipulative move to add onto her pile: "Can I sleep in your room tonight, I lost my room key" - SERIOUSLY? I'm pretty sure, that for several decades now, hotels (even motels) will either provide you with another key, or at the very least, let you into your own room. Also, it looked like CL was already in the room.

I learned long ago that when someone is trying to blackmail me by saying they'll harm or kill themselves (because they don't want me to leave them or get back together with them or whatever), I call 911 and "report them as a danger to themselves or others". A therapist told me this very useful phrase. It will either smarten up the manipulator or let the police decide whether the manipulator needs a psych hold for evaluation.

I just go crazy when I hear that good people let themselves be blackmailed this way. I wonder how it would have gone if TA had ever said even one time: "You feel like you want to die or kill yourself? Oh, , I'm so sorry to hear that, but you must do what you think is best for you. I can't do anything about it other than call 911 for you because I'm so worried."

FWIW, the did not sent that text to Travis. Either Sky or Chris Hughes did, and they did so to mock the and her endless ploys & plots to wrap her tentacles around Travis. Travis knew who sent the text to him which is why he replied to both Sky & Chris.

As for the rest. The was and is a predator; had Travis been an altogether whole person when she went hunting, she would never have targeted him.

 

[FelicityLemon]

FWIW, the did not sent that text to Travis. Either Sky or Chris Hughes did, and they did so to mock the and her endless ploys & plots to wrap her tentacles around Travis. Travis knew who sent the text to him which is why he replied to both Sky & Chris.

As for the rest. The was and is a predator; had Travis been an altogether whole person when she went hunting, she would never have targeted him.

Ah, thank you Hope4More! I get so lost in all this. I notice that a lot of her texts are coincidentally at the same time that he's having a conversation/text with someone else. Is it likely that she could access his texts real-time and see the back and forth between TA and others? It's just really creepy timing and at least twice I saw her make a comment that addressed something that was just said either by or to TA. I wonder if he noticed that.

Put me in the club that thanks you soooooo muuuuch for what you're doing for us! :roses:

 

[pocketaccent]

Hmm....I'm confused to as how was Deanna making it hard for TA? Other than still having feelings? We barely hear from her.if anything,it sounds like she was the least dramatic person interacting with him. Just curious.

All texts between Travis and Deanna were always warm, caring, jokey, and loving. I never saw any jealousy from Deanna whatsoever, nor flirting with Travis.

To me, they were more like best friends or very caring siblings.
When it came to the though, Deanna knew she was harmful to Travis so she really put her foot down and tried to urge Travis to leave her. I think the drama he was writing about in his journal is related to that.

She could have been still in very much love with him, though. I don't know for sure.

 

[Ktblair]

All texts between Travis and Deanna were always warm, caring, jokey, and loving. I never saw any jealousy from Deanna whatsoever, nor flirting with Travis.

To me, they were more like best friends or very caring siblings.
When it came to the though, Deanna knew she was harmful to Travis so she really put her foot down and tried to urge Travis to leave her. I think the drama he was writing about in his journal is related to that.

She could have been still in very much love with him, though. I don't know for sure.

Good point! Now that makes sense

 

[geevee]

Hello I have been following, watching the trial videos and reading about this case for years..I just wanted to tearfully (yet smiling) say how amazing and wonderful you all are for your dedication, respect, and tenacity. Thank you, for helping me understand how that evil, did what she did and why...

Welcome, Sharla! Nice to have you aboard, esp. during Hope's excellent compilation, giving us much better insight into how Travis was thinking and feeling during those last months.

I personally have gained a deeper understanding (and even more empathy) of what he was going through then and how he struggled to do right by everyone. That put him in an impossible position and was destroying all he worked towards for months makes it all the sadder to read, but eternally grateful to Hope for climbing this mountain and giving us this view.

 

[Sharla]

Welcome, Sharla! Nice to have you aboard, esp. during Hope's excellent compilation, giving us much better insight into how Travis was thinking and feeling during those last months.

I personally have gained a deeper understanding (and even more empathy) of what he was going through then and how he struggled to do right by everyone. That put him in an impossible position and was destroying all he worked towards for months makes it all the sadder to read, but eternally grateful to Hope for climbing this mountain and giving us this view.

Hello Geevee Thank you for the warm welcome! I too have learned sooo deeply the absolute turmoil, evil and destruction that brought into the life of Travis I am in awe of the insight of you and your sisters how true and eloquently stated..Hope4More has climbed this mountain and given us this view.

 

[salberg7]

Respectfully H4M, you misinterpreted what I said. I never said he used women. That wasn’t my point AT ALL.
He was no shrinking violet either. Go to December’s texts between him & Lisa after his tires were slashed 2 nights in a row. He asked Lisa if he could come over her house and “set a trap” for the unknown slasher. Lisa did not allow that and told him so. Travis was pretty rude to her in their texts stating that Lisa was prohibiting him from catching his “stalker “ by not allowing him to park at her house & enter her house to bait the stalker. Even though Lisa & Travis discussed the possibility that was the slasher. Telling Samantha that was willing to take a polygraph & pay for it herself. Samantha incredulously said to her brother “yeah right like that is going to happen”.
Why then did he continue his relationship with his killer? He was texting her & having her come over like nothing happened after his tire episode x2.
Why couldn’t he just sever their relationship then?

 

[salberg7]

With all due respect, Salberg7, BOO!

Travis had some kind of bond with to begin with , "then true to form, lost interest" ??

My goodness. Would that he HAD just lost interest and sent her packing and moved right on.

But wait. He TOLD ThE from the get go he wasn't ready to commit, that he was still trying to work out his feelings about Deanna, and especially, how devastated he felt about the damage he had done to Deanna by not being able to commit.

The manipulated him into a relationship he was clear he wasn't ready for, then (and beforehand, even) abused his trust, invaded his privacy, and did her utmost to isolate him from his friends and support network.

He ended their "relationship," she didn't, and when he did, she moved within spitting distance of him to control him, destroy him, CONSUME him for her own purposes.

Yes she used sex, and yes he had sex with her, and yes, I think it was way fewer times than the slimed him with so gleefully and despicably at trial, and yes, he "should" -in some completely abstract meaning of that word- have better understood what damage she was doing to him, earlier on, but NO, NO, NO his inability to cut her loose did not make him a user or a "player," and NO,NO, NO, read or reread the ENTIRE email exchange with Sky & Chris, who first ate those words the had primed them to tell Travis, and then apologized; and then go through the available texts and find one instance of Travis saying more or doing anything more than his style of harmless flirting BEFORE February 2008, when Travis was sinking and becoming desperate in multiple areas of his life, THANKS IN NO SMALL PART TO THE , who did everything she could to keep Travis from reaching shore.

Stopping here because steam is still rising, not subsiding.

How did Travis “end” their relationship? He didn’t. They still traveled together, spoke on the phone, lent/borrowed money, he deposited money in her bank accounts, she kept cleaning his house, so no he didn’t “end” their relationship.
What gets you so angry, H4M? He even still let her in the day he was killed.
Why?
First of all, we will never know. We can speculate until the cows come home.
I myself think he did care for the a lot but couldn’t recognize her psychopathy until the last few months, and his rejection began with the tire slashing in December 2017. He continued to see her even after everything his friends said to him about her : drop her, let her go, etc. He himself told Chris that he “used” for gas money in December 2017 as “desperate times meant desperate measures” & he was broke.
Travis did drop several sexual in nature texts to various women pretty regularly. He texted of wanting to “get naked” with one. He wasn’t afraid to be himself with his friends.
He wasn’t a shrinking violet by no means.
So why didn’t he end it with in December 2017? January 2018?
“Lost interest” in that he wasn’t thinking about the in the same way he first spoke of her to Skye & Chris was back in October 2016 when he told them that she could be “the One”.
Same as Deanna (broke it off as Travis couldn’t commit) and Linda Ballard (his ex fiancé).

 

[salberg7]

Yes! All these things you've stated have been bugging me as well.how was she able to have such a hold on her exes the whole time?! I would also love to see texts and messages from December or before when she was caught under his tree and sneaking through the doggie door.that had to have been interesting conversation between Travis and his friends

December 2017 texts are on Beth’s site. I am halfway through 97 pages of them. I think the was in Yreka that Christmas but haven’t gotten that far yet.

 

[salberg7]

It's a small thing, but it's just one more blatantly manipulative move to add onto her pile: "Can I sleep in your room tonight, I lost my room key" - SERIOUSLY? I'm pretty sure, that for several decades now, hotels (even motels) will either provide you with another key, or at the very least, let you into your own room. Also, it looked like CL was already in the room.

I learned long ago that when someone is trying to blackmail me by saying they'll harm or kill themselves (because they don't want me to leave them or get back together with them or whatever), I call 911 and "report them as a danger to themselves or others". A therapist told me this very useful phrase. It will either smarten up the manipulator or let the police decide whether the manipulator needs a psych hold for evaluation.

I just go crazy when I hear that good people let themselves be blackmailed this way. I wonder how it would have gone if TA had ever said even one time: "You feel like you want to die or kill yourself? Oh, , I'm so sorry to hear that, but you must do what you think is best for you. I can't do anything about it other than call 911 for you because I'm so worried."

As stated, Chris Hughes authored that text to bust Travis’ chops during the convention. did not. But thus you can see how Travis’ friends reacted to her based on what Travis told them. And all of them told him to stop any interaction with her. Facing all the ridicule, why didn’t he stop? He gave her his BMW during this time.
H4M you can’t say with certainty that he ended their relationship when he is giving her a car.

 

[TrialWatcher]

I don’t think Travis was free from what occurred during his childhood, Trial Watcher. While he did try to to move forward and play it positive, he had a huge problem with commitment. He didn’t marry Deanna & they broke up because of it. He had a broken engagement.Travis had emotional problems as well that were probably residual from his childhood. He went through women like chicklets. Emotionally he was very immature. And very conflicted. How could Travis NOT have known the reason he lost Lisa was b/o the killer? He needed Chris Hughes to tell him that? He was almost 30 years old. Lisa had broken up with him once before for his continuing relationship with the .
The killer wasn’t the only one he had sex with. Chiatlayna (sp?) was another-Conflicted. Wasn’t this his second Temple Recommend for sex as well?
All the more why his killer was able to manipulate him because of his vulnerabilities. I think that, however weird, they had a bond of some kind in the beginning but he lost interest, true to form for Travis. Yes she played him regarding him being her “religious mentor” but she wore out her welcome. All she had to offer him was sex, and occasionally he took her up on it, but not as much as she would have us think. He really didn’t have a long attention span with women- always on to the next one. He was a player, as Skye & Chris said.
Travis and the killer were “the perfect storm”. For whatever reason (sex?) he couldn’t let go until two or three months before she killed him and that was too late.

Salberg7, I am not suggesting that Travis was entirely free from his childhood. We all carry our pasts with us. Yet I think it is a step too far to suggest that shaped his behaviour with Arias - for a number of reasons. One being that (tragically) he can't speak for himself. Maybe he simply didn't want to marry Deanna? Yes, she is lovely. Yes, they were close but many people don't marry friends they love because they are not in love with them. That is natural. Travis was a normal young man in abnormal circumstances. PPL placed huge demands on him. His business interests and personal ones overlapped due to very intimate friendships with colleagues.

Men under thirty don't normally abstain from sex due to religion. That is not normal. The fact that he didn't - even with Deanna - shows how difficult that was. Your point on Travis' maturity is an interesting one. Arias was very immature. Sky and Chris Hughes emphasised Travis' problem with commitment because they were unnaturally (some would argue) focused on marriage. Ironically, did they not get divorced? Did they have huge problems with commitment long term? My view is that Travis may simply not have found the right person for him yet. I generally agree with your summary of Travis' own behaviour around women. There is plenty of evidence to back this up. He wasn't a "shrinking violet". You are not suggesting anything abnormal about Travis' behaviour, as far as I can see (in the context of other young men and their dating behaviours). Sex is absolutely normal. Abstaining from it at his age, in the West, is outside normal behaviours.

Your make solid points on Chris telling him what to do. Travis was in a tricky position regarding respecting his friend and PPL leader. At first they cheered Arias on, as you know. They chided him - using Deanna as a 'commitment issue' illustration. My view is that this was out of order. Poor Travis was placed under their religiously driven microscope. That and church ideas of normal marriage ages placed him in an unnecessarily stressful position. On top of that was Arias. As you identified - exploiting him over his vulnerabilities.

 

[TrialWatcher]

Salberg7, "
What gets you so angry, H4M? He even still let her in the day he was killed.
Why?"

With all due respect, Salberg7, BOO!

Stopping here because steam is still rising, not subsiding.

Hope4More, like Salberg7, I don't understand why you get so angry when people disagree with some parts of your assessment of Travis or Arias. I get your interest in the case. That is obvious. It very often makes for great reading and debate. Your work in magnificently detailing what quite a lot of us have read separately is much appreciated. That doesn't mean that I have agreed with your conclusions in two key areas. One was the whole 'sex on the day' strangeness on this forum. Yet, I see that you have changed positions many times - as you have honestly stated. Hopefully, I understand this better now and why.

My second key disagreement was around Travis cutting her off. Despite everything she did, despite his instincts, he still called her, texted and had sex with her on the day she killed him. The evidence shows this. My view is that as Travis can't speak for himself here, I don't relish him being made a victim of his childhood re murderer Arias. Maybe he was just a guy who made a terrible error in allowing a maniac to apologise to him, manipulate him and use sex to distract him?

My view is that Travis was a normal young man in terms of sex and relationships. He flirted, he had sex (even with Deanna) and he wanted sex. What was abnormal was his circumstances. Religiosity and and cultish (some would argue) working relationships via PPL would screw many people up. Regardless of their past.

What I hope we can do here is move beyond these past sticking points and explore what lies behind our own views and opinions. There doesn't seem to be much disagreement outside the areas highlighted. It intrigues me why a few areas get so heated. Let's have open debates and opinions on this. I look forward to your next posts, Hope. I'd be interested to see if you have changed any of your previous opinions.

 

[salberg7]

Maybe he was just a guy who made a terrible error in allowing a maniac to apologise to him, manipulate him and use sex to distract him? From Trial Watcher.

This.

And yep he liked the sex and nothing wrong with that.

 

[freudianslip]

Thank you, thank you, thank you everyone for the fascinating read. This die-hard fan has her credit card ready for the collective book you will hopefully publish in the near future.

Twisted did her very best to entice Travis, to trap him and to fabricate evidence portaying him as a sexual deviant and pedophile. It is very upsetting to me that the narrative she pushed still is the dominant one out there (the « dirty little secret » etc.)

I agree that Travis seems to have been a normal 30 year old guy trying to live up to a rigid set of religious rules and also that his upbringing made him vulnerable to a manipulative predator. To what extent is difficult to assess. Sorting through her lies, the shock value of the nude pics, the texts and the available trial evidence, is like cleaning a wild animal after an oil spill.

I have come to believe that Travis may have slipped up a few times, but that most of it was sex talk… Maybe because I really really wish I could fix the terrible damage she inflicted on his reputation, his legacy, his soul and his dignity.

I have been hooked on this thread forever. Thank you so much everyone for keeping it going.