Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #24

[nwmouse]

I wouldn’t be surprised if CW is already getting fan mail from sympathizers, commissary money, marriage proposals like Menedez brothers, Scott Peterson, Richard Ramirez, Ted Bundy, Jodi Arias and yes, even James Holmes (Batman killer) received mail from female admirers.

We really live in a sick world. It’s baffling

Yes. I'm sure he's getting lots of fan mail. Sick!!

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Needing more facts before convicting CW for murdering his 2 daughters seems to be a wrong and unreasonable opinion to many of the posters on this thread. This is JMO and I'm sorry if I've offended anyone. Even if I'm not posting I'll still be following along.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion, popular or not. :grouphug:

 

[MsBetsy]

I disagree. I've listed those facts. There are even more. I think they constitute powerful evidence that he is guilty of three first degree murders beyond a reasonable doubt.

I think I know something about evidence and reasonable doubt and burdens of proof. Reasonable minds may differ. That's understandable. My word isn't law.

But for someone to say it's a fact (as opposed to opinion), that we don't have enough facts to convict him, I think is incorrect and unreasonable.

That's your opinion. It's not fact.

I think it more likely those that actually believe his story are ignoring the " facts", as it has been dissected over and over, and in terms of logic and common sense, is not credible. Imo

 

[whisperOFwings]

Hey Everyone,

I am training a new mod. Please welcome Whiskers16. Do not tell her the truth about moderating, please. I want her to think it is all fun and laughter and love. LOL

<Modsnip - off topic>

@Whiskers16
Welcome!

 

[Jennifer17]

bouncing off your post here,

yes let that be the new benchmark then. Let's all ponder on that one

Here is the bench that I am sitting on.
Many years ago, I discovered my child dead in her cot. There probably were many things that I could have been fearful that I had done which led to her death, but I did not think of any of those things.
I started CPR and then knew that I had to get outside help, so I ran into the neighbours house with her while I continued CPR and she rang the emergency number.
It never occurred to me to cover up her death because I might be blamed.

 

[gitana1]

If we (WS) were the jury for CW's murder trial for his daughters do you think there's enough evidence to convict him?

It's a theoretical question I really can't answer. Because none of us would be impaneled. We all know too much about the case.

As to a group of neutral jurors? I think it is enough. Of course they're going to have to see the facts fleshed out. As in hear testimony from the friend as to what she saw and said and heard and did. And what CW did. Hear testimony from the officers as to all of that as well.

And hear testimony from the investigators as to his statements and the timing of those and their statements to him the day he was arrested.

But I don't mean testimony as to additional facts. Just fleshed out a bit.

Because no juror is going to read "facts" on a sheet and find a person guilty. They have to hear testimony and weigh credibility.

But when you hear what actually happened coming from witnesses mouths- it's profound. And much different from reading an affidavit. It brings it to life.

And I believe a jury could find him guilty of five counts of first degree murder after being presented with what they have now.

 

[DexterMorgan]

Yes, it reminds me of DeAngelo refusing photos of his private parts! A good reason for the defense to try to prevent it. Incriminating evidence. Jmo

What the

 

[brookryn]

There’s that saying “One lie is enough to question all truths.” Even if by some insane chance CW was telling the truth about SW strangling their babies- he screwed himself over with all the actions & lies he told after. By a landslide.

 

[cailleach]

Needing more facts before convicting CW for murdering his 2 daughters seems to be a wrong and unreasonable opinion to many of the posters on this thread. This is JMO and I'm sorry if I've offended anyone. Even if I'm not posting I'll still be following along.

Not wrong at all. You haven't offended me and, hopefully, not anyone else. We all bring our own lives, experiences, and professional backgrounds to this site where we try to make sense of this case. I believe most people here realize that it's different in court than what we're doing here. Keep posting, ask questions, and engage, while understanding that we may not have the information you feel you need for years, if ever.

 

[Whiteorchids]

Here is the bench that I am sitting on.
Many years ago, I discovered my child dead in her cot. There probably were many things that I could have been fearful that I had done which led to her death, but I did not think of any of those things.
I started CPR and then knew that I had to get outside help, so I ran into the neighbours house with her while I continued CPR and she rang the emergency number.
It never occurred to me to cover up her death because I might be blamed.

I’m so sorry to hear that. How heartbreaking. Big Hugs

 

[MassGuy]

<modsnip to fix quote>
Respectfully, I have to disagree. I’m not sure if you’re referencing me, but The only time I have used that phrase is to caution people - in the general sense - to listen to all information, not just that which supports the favored theory. I *completely* understand why people would think C.W. killed them all - and I don’t necessarily disagree with them. I just need to see more evidence before reaching that conclusion for myself. Still so many unknowns right now, hoping many questions will be answered later on.

No. I was referencing a poster who defends C.W. at every turn. There’s nothing wrong with needing more evidence, I just disagree with the idea that there is not enough there to reach a conclusion, if one so chooses.

 

[MsBetsy]

To strangle your own very young children suggests anger to me. CW used that word so I can assume the children were strangled. This wrecks my theory that the whole thing was premeditated. If he planned it, smothering them with a pillow would have been easier and he wouldn’t have to look into their eyes. I can’t get past that shrouded doll laid out like a corpse.

He may have been thinking about it for awhile and didn't make the final decision until that night. Even if he made his decision after she got home, it doesn't mean it wasn't premeditated. Imo

 

[DexterMorgan]

Needing more facts before convicting CW for murdering his 2 daughters seems to be a wrong and unreasonable opinion to many of the posters on this thread. This is JMO and I'm sorry if I've offended anyone. Even if I'm not posting I'll still be following along.

Its okay Tippy. We still love you.

 

[gitana1]

Yes, we keep hearing that we are not listening or ignoring the evidence of CW's version, but except for the word of a man who has lied until he was found out, there is no evidence.
Just a liar's word.

The only thing I've heard so far that people might be referring to is videos showing a mom squirting her kid in the face with a water bottle on a hot day, TWO parents forcing their kids to say hi to a terrifying "Santa", and sit on his lap, a wife who made fun of her husband for losing at checkers and who was disrespectful or rude on a few cherry-picked publicly posted videos, among many in which she publicly praises him and talks about how wonderful he is, and unverified statements from someone who definitely knows them, and believes CW, but who has given no foundation for those statements at all. Just statements without context of any kind.

None of that is close to evidence that his defense may be accurate.

 

[Allabouttrial]

Needing more facts before convicting CW for murdering his 2 daughters seems to be a wrong and unreasonable opinion to many of the posters on this thread. This is JMO and I'm sorry if I've offended anyone. Even if I'm not posting I'll still be following along.

I hate you feel you can't post your opinion

 

[gitana1]

Needing more facts before convicting CW for murdering his 2 daughters seems to be a wrong and unreasonable opinion to many of the posters on this thread. This is JMO and I'm sorry if I've offended anyone. Even if I'm not posting I'll still be following along.

Not to me. It's absolutely fair that some may need more facts.

Stating opinion as fact however and telling everyone that they're ignoring facts which are actually opinion, that, for me is not reasonable.

Otherwise, reasonable minds will indeed differ. And people will challenge each other's beliefs on a discussion board.

 

[MsBetsy]

i don’t know if the children were in bed together or not do you? Also a toggle can be in one second depending upon when you would glance

Right, but I think the point is, if you see your child is in danger your immediate response is to rush to help the child, as opposed to taking the time to focus on what condition the other child may be in... why would one assume that if one child is in distress the other may be too? It defies reason. Imo.

 

[Starkville]

Needing more facts before convicting CW for murdering his 2 daughters seems to be a wrong and unreasonable opinion to many of the posters on this thread. This is JMO and I'm sorry if I've offended anyone. Even if I'm not posting I'll still be following along.

I'm kinda with you, Tippy. It’s logical to me that CW killed his family; I think he did, with 99.9% certainty. But if I were on a jury, I’d need solid evidence to convict him of first degree murder; more than I’ve seen thus far.

We don’t even have a cause of death.

 

[BeanieBod]

Good point! I wonder if maybe he suspected the baby wasn’t his ! That could explain a lot

Do you have any inside information that would prompt this idea? From her total involvement with her girls and 24/7 MLM, I do not see her having time for a relationship with anyone else. JMOO

 

[rigsby2]

Exactly. I mean we know of cases where parents covered up a death but those ALL involve complicity by the parent in abuse or neglect. Like the kid was tortured for weeks or months and they find him dead in his bed and cover it up.

Or the child has an accident because the parents or guardians are busy getting high as kites and not wanting to get in trouble or stop getting money for the kid, they hide the body.

But a case like this? Where the parent is totally innocent of harming the child or allowing the child to be harmed due to neglect? And the parent isn't a total addict or previously abusive or horrifically neglectful parent?

Not one case.

It's fine to say we never know how we would react to something. But that's not how logic and critical thinking and weighing evidence works.

Instead, we look at patterns of human behavior. We look at human nature. We look at the primal, visceral power of the bond between a parent who loves their child, and that kid.

We look at behavior surrounding sudden deaths of children. And patterns involving grief and despair when a parent thinks they've lost their child. Desperation to reverse it. To fix it. To turn back time.

None of his behaviors fit the patterns of human behavior involving sudden shock and fear and grief involving one's child. Try to find a case. Any case.

It doesn't exist.

What does exist though are parents refusing to let go of their child's corpse. Parents like the dad who ran after the nurse as she took his dead baby away, (as one poster described), making sure the dead baby would be "safe".

It's parents who scream and beg the paramedics and doctors to continue trying to revive a child long past any hope.

It's parents like the McMath's who go to incredible lengths, involving courts and money and research and leaving their entire life behind to keep their child's corpse on life support indefinitely.

That we have plenty of examples of.

This we just don't.

But something else we've seen over and over again? How guilty people behave. What people do who have committed atrocities and seek to escape the consequences.

We've seen that for all of recorded history. Heck, thousands of years of history as to what consciousness of guilt looks like:

9. And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

10. And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Genesis 4:9-10

Yeah. That we know about. That we have millions upon millions of examples throughout recorded history of what it looks like when someone commits murder- like Cain- and tries to cover it up to escape justice.

And THAT is the exact pattern of human behavior we are seeing here.

For me it's not rocket science. It's just logic.

While hunkered down thru Florence, I finished 'Then She Was Gone' by Lisa Jewell. One of the character descriptions gave me the chills as it instantly made me think of CW.

"...has a dark aspect. Very dark. Dangerous, almost. But the discrepancy between his true self and the way he presents himself is striking. It's like he's taking cues from people. Working out how to be. And then there's the way he is with his daughter. It's not quite right. He watches her all of the time...I don't think he really loves her. Not in the normal sense of the word. I think it's more that he needs her, because she makes him human. She's like a cloak."

"...a man who can't love but desperately needs to be loved is a dangerous thing indeed...dangerous because he's pretending to be someone he's not in order to get you to love him."