Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #24

[nwmouse]

Totally agree Tippy, and I’m sorry you feel that way.
What fun is it if we all have the same opinions? IMO some have become quite vitriolic against those who dare to post differing opinions.

I think its disbelief and outrage at the murder of two innocent little girls and an unborn baby boy and the WAY the bodies of the little girls were disposed of. In the heat of the moment I think we can understand (not condone, mind you) a crime of passion but the murder of innocent children is what has caused emotions to run very high in this case. Its tragic and horrific, no other way to see it. Disposing of a little child's body in crude oil is as awful as dumping them in a vat of sulfuric acid imho.

 

[katydid23]

ok

Ok, so there are people here accusing her of strangling her babies. Just not accusing her of slaughtering them?

I am not sure there is that big of a difference between the two accusations.

But I was trying to explain to you, why people might be pushing back on some of these views. If she is the actual murder victim, then these accusations against her are very ugly. Much like blaming a gang rape victim for wearing a tight skirt to the club.

It is a very volatile and sensitive topic.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

Totally agree Tippy, and I’m sorry you feel that way.
What fun is it if we all have the same opinions? IMO some have become quite vitriolic against those who dare to post differing opinions.

Thanks @MerryB. I agree.

 

[gitana1]

Why post anything at all if you don't want feedback? That's the fun of posting here, I can have a topic supposedly well thought out in my mind, and after posting it find out that others have insight. Otherwise I should probably just wait until the trial.

Yes. One topic that intrigues me especially is one a recent (new) poster brought up when challenging my thought that CW and people like him are probably sociopathic or narcissistic.

I thought she or he made very intelligent points and I wish they'd come back and discuss the issue more.

Super interesting and I really want to learn all I can. It's baffling.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

It does seem to be, but I just can't wrap my head around someone else being present. None of what happens makes much sense at all to me. Why strangulation on at least one of the girls is a big question mark for me. I don't understand the use of this method. Suffocation yes.

Don't you know, I'm with you on this! I feel the same way. I just cannot fathom it for any situation, any situation at all! It just is not making sense at all.

Perhaps if he said he thought he saw her strangling the girls, it would have been quicker than what actually happened, which was a Suffocation?

But the petechia etc in eyes eyc...and the pathology of Suffocation, I think still would be there no matter where where they were buried?

We have a pathologist, perhaps we need to do a shout-out to her on the threads. I just learned something new 2 days ago let me try it

@joypath are you following this case or have input? Batcall!

 

[NuttMegg]

We don't really follow individual posters on WS -- we can only exclude posters if we don't want to see their posts.
You should get notified thru your email anytime anything is posted to a new thread you are following IF, when you decide to watch a new thread, you click on "Watch Thread," (located at the top of each thread page).

After you do that, you will get a selection option -- you should select "and receive email notifications." Then you will get notified that there has been a posting on that new thread. -- you only have to do the "Watch/select" once per thread.

When a new thread is created (mods close Thread 22 and open Thread 23), you will link to the new thread and do the "Watch/select" operations, and you are good for that thread.

We really can follow individual posters. Just click on their avatar and the option of "follow" is presented. I do it with some of the lawyers, physicians and VIs. Then you can see their posts all at once each day, ie if you are in a hurry or want to see what the VIs say, by clicking on "your news feed". It's a cool feature.

 

[MsBetsy]

While hunkered down thru Florence, I finished 'Then She Was Gone' by Lisa Jewell. One of the character descriptions gave me the chills as it instantly made me think of CW.

"...has a dark aspect. Very dark. Dangerous, almost. But the discrepancy between his true self and the way he presents himself is striking. It's like he's taking cues from people. Working out how to be. And then there's the way he is with his daughter. It's not quite right. He watches her all of the time...I don't think he really loves her. Not in the normal sense of the word. I think it's more that he needs her, because she makes him human. She's like a cloak."

"...a man who can't love but desperately needs to be loved is a dangerous thing indeed...dangerous because he's pretending to be someone he's not in order to get you to love him."

Yes. What you describe is the perfect example of someone with ASPD. We still can't get rid of the term "psychopath." But there it is. We see it time and time again. It's not an excuse, it's an explanation. How else can you describe someone who murders their entire family, and then is able to go about life as it is just another day? No apparent remorse. No feelings of guilt or shame, at least that we can see. These people are experts at mimicking normal behavior. They spend their life studying human behavior. I think you are right in your assumption that he is taking cues from other people on how to behave, at least emotionally. You hit the nail right on the head with your observation that his watching his daughter makes him feel human. He may desperately want to feel love, but he just doesn't understand the emotion, so he watches his daughter intensely to try to understand and use what he learns from her in real life. He may want to love, but he doesn't know how. This is the very thing that makes people like this capable of murder. It is the lack of connection and true feelings that enables them to wipe out their family and then justify it in their mind. Jmo

 

[Deleted member 230544]

I don’t recall either SW or CW having degrees. We’ve been told CW was gifted in mechanics and from what we can tell SW appears to be excellent in sales. I would think losing a job would be a huge deal for anyone.

I recall reading somewhere that CW did have a degree. I will try and relocate that info and post. I thought it was in Chemical Engineering of some sort but will clarify when I can.

Update: CW holds a Chemical Engineering degree from University of Miami.
Don't know if the link is TOS so won't link at this point. I will ask mods if it is permitted first.

 

[MyBelle]

The prosecution usually has to prove the defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt on all charges.

So the defense doesn't have to say anything.

But but but but but but................

With CW's scenario; Nobody will believe it off bat.

So he will probably have to take the stand and explain himself. Because expert testimony on his side can only offer so much if the defendant is not willing to get up there and show or tell some type of renactment of that nights events that will corroborate his defense expert statements jmo

And I truly doubt he will want to get up there and do that in front of his dad, family and friends. Jmo.

I think the only possible way for the jury to believe CW's story is if the DNA/handprints from the girls or the DNA from under CW's nails is proved not to belong to him. If it proves it is him, he might as well take a plea and say hello to the rest of his life at the GrayBar Hotel. JMO

 

[moonlessnight]

I can't get past the oil, the smiling, preening interviews and the fact that he was sneaking around with numerous affair partners.

I agree. I think he looked quite pleased with himself and was simply glad they were all dead. I don't think he was concerned one bit with giving himself away. I think he was far too happy and smug to care. He must have felt such a huge sense of gratification - of power over. It's all over his face, his posture. he was quite pleased with himself and what he did to them.

 

[gitana1]

I was trying to multi quote and I cannot figure out how to do it so I did this...
Will vs can?

Yes. They can call the dad/grandfather.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

Ok, so there are people here accusing her of strangling her babies. Just not accusing her of slaughtering them?

I am not sure there is that big of a difference between the two accusations.

But I was trying to explain to you, why people might be pushing back on some of these views. If she is the actual murder victim, then these accusations against her are very ugly. Much like blaming a gang rape victim for wearing a tight skirt to the club.

It is a very volatile and sensitive topic.

I wasn't talking about why people were pushing back on these views, so IMO there was no need for explanation on that. I questioned where it was being posted that SW slaughtered the babies, you responded that CW stated SW strangled the babies, I said I think there's a difference between strangling and slaughtering, you responded with the definition of slaughter vs strangle, I said ok.

 

[Allabouttrial]

Don't you know, I'm with you on this! I feel the same way. I just cannot fathom it for any situation, any situation at all! It just is not making sense at all.

Perhaps if he said he thought he saw her strangling the girls, it would have been quicker than what actually happened, which was a Suffocation?

But the petechia etc in eyes eyc...and the pathology of Suffocation, I think still would be there no matter where where they were buried?

We have a pathologist, perhaps we need to do a shout-out to her on the threads. I just learned something new 2 days ago let me try it

@joypath are you following this case or have input? Batcall!

hehe Good call

 

[sun16]

Do you think CW asked for the DNA swabs of the children’s necks and hands because he took Shanann’s hands and put them around the children’s deck after all 4 were dead? And scraped Shanann’s or the children’s nails onto each other? Maybe he strangled the children with pillow cases, so his own prints/DNA aren’t on them? Why ask for the swab, unless he knows his DNA won’t be found on the children? I feel like it’s giving him too much credit that he put them in the tanks to cover up DNA. Is he so forensicslly smart that he knows the oil will wipe out any DNA evidence?

And would ingested oil mess up the ME’s ability to get an accurate look at how far along the stomach contents from Sunday were?

 

[moonlessnight]

I think he said that because if he said he took the girls the day before it would look like premeditation instead of heat of passion.

I may be late to the party, but is is possible he killed and disposed of the girls before SW got home from the airport? Who knows what kind of story or situation he had in store for SW, but I wonder if he got the girls out the way so he could really do SW in. Maybe she never saw the girls dead or knew they had died. Maybe he just needed an empty house for whatever he did to SW.

 

[nwmouse]

Do you think CW asked for the DNA swabs of the children’s necks and hands because he took Shanann’s hands and put them around the children’s deck after all 4 were dead? And scraped Shanann’s or the children’s nails onto each other? Maybe he strangled the children with pillow cases, so his own prints/DNA aren’t on them? Why ask for the swab, unless he knows his DNA won’t be found on the children? I feel like it’s giving him too much credit that he put them in the tanks to cover up DNA. Is he so forensicslly smart that he knows the oil will wipe out any DNA evidence?

And would ingested oil mess up the ME’s ability to get an accurate look at how far along the stomach contents from Sunday were,

I'm not an expert however if the bodies were dead when he dumped them in the oil they would not be able to "ingest" oil, but I hope an expert can expand on this.

It WAS discussed here quite early on that CW may have transferred DNA from SW to the children's necks, that's why the defense team requested a DNA search on their necks. All this is just my NON EXPERT MOO.

 

[MsBetsy]

Thanks @MsBetsy - I'm glad I'm not the only one who has seen the ridicule and I'm not just making it up. LOL

No, it definitely happens. I felt like an idiot when I saw the sarcastic comments in response to my posts and when you are made to feel that way it is bullying and not tolerated on this site. Not agreeing is one thing, sarcastic, insulting comments are another. Jmo

 

[Jennifer17]

Do you think CW asked for the DNA swabs of the children’s necks and hands because he took Shanann’s hands and put them around the children’s deck after all 4 were dead? And scraped Shanann’s or the children’s nails onto each other? Maybe he strangled the children with pillow cases, so his own prints/DNA aren’t on them? Why ask for the swab, unless he knows his DNA won’t be found on the children? I feel like it’s giving him too much credit that he put them in the tanks to cover up DNA. Is he so forensicslly smart that he knows the oil will wipe out any DNA evidence?

And would ingested oil mess up the ME’s ability to get an accurate look at how far along the stomach contents from Sunday were?

I don't think that CW would have asked for that, his defence team would have because of his story of the events.

 

[Best of What's Around]

Yes. One topic that intrigues me especially is one a recent (new) poster brought up when challenging my thought that CW and people like him are probably sociopathic or narcissistic.

I thought she or he made very intelligent points and I wish they'd come back and discuss the issue more.

Super interesting and I really want to learn all I can. It's baffling.

I think that amazing new poster might just be me (just a riff on the narc angle, but I digress). I was curious as to whether it is accepted in the psychology field that someone must be devoid of empathy in the classic sense of a narcissist or sociopath to commit crimes like these. I do believe that most of us assume they must be and that those who stand up for them refused to see the previous signs of such. I was very impressed by the snippets of CW with his children and that SW and the children lacked any signs of "walking on eggshells" around CW. Obviously, that is not proof positive he has empathy. But I am just curious as to whether it still jives with the crimes and coverup and post-offense behavior or do studies show this all the proof you need that a damaged or non-existent sense of empathy ever existed? I suppose that someone troubled (mentally) but still empathetic could convince themselves that they are doing what is best for the victims by killing...rationalize to themselves that they are better off dead. In that case, I imagine we would see all three having been drugged heavily prior to the killings. I in no way mean to point out justifications, excuses, etc. Just the human psyche is fascinating. Certainly there are people who have empathy for some and not others (and we are all guilty of this to some degree when it comes to how we treat animals in our society...but I digress).

 

[Deleted member 230544]

Yes. They can call the dad/grandfather.

What about CW's father can he be called as well?