Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #11

[MistyWaters]

I am a more positive than some seem to be about the police investigation. The perpetrators were 'pros' in the sense they were very aware that a major police investigation was likely to follow, so they were very careful in leaving very little evidence behind. I really believe the slowness of the TPS investigation is the function of the expertise of the perpetrators rather than any deficiency by the TPS.

The Iranian connection you reference has always been significant to me.

Police have a relatively accessing cell phone records, and do so on a regular basis. I have a feeling that the records mentioned in the Star story, were likely more significant, and quite possibly under the jurisdiction of another level of Canadian government, which always slows things up.

Many crimes are solved because the criminals made mistakes and/or the police got lucky. So far the police have not had a lot of luck, and the criminals appear to have been very careful.

Mentioned in the one video, I hadn’t thought about the additional time and complexity involved for warrants that have to be served in the US.....for example Google and FB.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Mentioned in the one video, I hadn’t thought about the additional time and complexity involved for warrants that have to be served in the US.....for example Google and FB.

The net they have to cast may be extraordinary large. Not just known suspect electronic data, but electronic data usage of users within a radius surrounding the crime scene and possibly Apotex.

In one Minnesota case, in particular, police requested a reverse search warrant related to an in-home invasion and burglary. The judge in charge of the warrant decision took all of 10 minutes to decide to issue the request to Google. Google then provided the police with anonymized smartphone data for the following:

• Every smartphone used in a six-hour window in several square miles surrounding the neighborhood home.
• Every smartphone used in a 33-hour window in several square miles surrounding a grocery store owned by the victims, which is in a dense urban area.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.androidauthority.com/reverse-search-warrants-google-955962/amp/

 

[ldlager]

My view: In harming Honey, you add to destroying Barry. JS described them as a lock and a key.

The crime scene might only make sense to the killer(s). But they not only killed the Shermans, the house Barry built and liked will destroyed soon as a result of that night.



Very interesting, ldlager.

From the article you posted:



I’m very curious as to how BS acted when he found out he was wrong about something.



I agree with you, and I think Kevin Donovan is right about the need for transparency from the TPS here. I also understand the need the TPS has to protect their investigation.

@MistyWaters may also be right: there’s a bit of public play-acting going on. They’ll clue us in when they can.

I am wondering if the killers thought honey was already in Florida, and were at the house waiting for Barry to arrive home. When honey arrived unexpectedly, they had to kill her to protect themselves. So honey may not have been targeted at all, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[WINDSOR]

I am wondering if the killers thought honey was already in Florida, and were at the house waiting for Barry to arrive home. When honey arrived unexpectedly, they had to kill her to protect themselves. So honey may not have been targeted at all, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Based on the apparent competency of the perpetrators, I believe they knew where the Shermans were at all times, and Honey was targeted.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Sorry if this is a repost. The Star reported that Jack Kay was ousted by JS on the first anniversary of the murders.

He has moved on to another company. Working on a similar project that Barry was working on prior to the murders.

MONTREAL, April 8, 2019 /CNW/ - Cannara Biotech ("Cannara" or the "Company") (CSE: LOVE FRA: 8CB), an emerging vertically integrated cannabis company focused on cultivation and cannabis-infused products, today announced the appointment of Jack Kay as a Director on Cannara's Board, effective immediately. Mr. Kay is generally recognized as one of Canada's leading pharmaceutical executives, having held senior positions in a number of firms, including CEO of Apotex.

"A strong and independent board is not only vital for a successful public company, it can serve as a competitive advantage in the battlefield of commerce and growth," said Zohar Krivorot, President and CEO of Cannara Biotech. "We are thrilled to welcome Jack to Cannara, all of us are excited to learn from his insights and leadership. Jack's track record of developing new products, launching them in Canada and elsewhere, nurturing global partnerships and spearheading a 10,000-person organization speaks for itself."

"Like many Canadians, I'm both intrigued and excited about the prospects of cannabis to make a positive difference in the health and wellbeing of patients and non-patients alike," said Jack Kay. "I look forward to having a more engaged role in this emerging sector, especially so with a company that has a compelling business plan and the commensurate resources to execute."

Cannara Biotech Appoints Jack Kay, Former CEO of Apotex, as New Board Director

I also checked on Jeremy Desai, former Apotex CEO. It was announced he left Apotex on the same day of the TPS news conference that stated the Shermans were murdered.

He has also moved on to a cannabis company.

"We are thrilled to develop a strategic partnership with BoomRx,” said Dr. Jeremy Desai, Mandara Pharma’s President and CEO. “Their focus on innovation, world-class service and their network of certified wellness coaches are a perfect fit for us as we continue to evolve and plan for global expansion. As one of the industry's most innovative companies, we will benefit greatly from their sales and marketing expertise and tremendous leadership team."

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-...ral-Science-Based-CBD-Products-to-Market.html

 

[MsSherlock]

I'm late to the conversation but "hi" to all the familiar WS'ers! Certainly an intriguing case. Not everyone racks up "frequent flyer/loyalty" points to any great degree. I'm interested to see if this leads anywhere. Note "owners of the cards" as opposed to the singular. If your bank records were being investigated, any travel paid for by loyalty points might in fact slide under the radar for a period of time.

"The Star revealed last year that police investigated this case obtained production orders to obtain airline flight information from two providers of airline loyalty points plans. The identity of the owners of the cards remains sealed." Barry and Honey Sherman murder case: Police have working theory and ‘an idea of what happened’ | The Star

 

[casesensitive]

I'm late to the conversation but "hi" to all the familiar WS'ers! Certainly an intriguing case. Not everyone racks up "frequent flyer/loyalty" points to any great degree. I'm interested to see if this leads anywhere. Note "owners of the cards" as opposed to the singular. If your bank records were being investigated, any travel paid for by loyalty points might in fact slide under the radar for a period of time.

"The Star revealed last year that police investigated this case obtained production orders to obtain airline flight information from two providers of airline loyalty points plans. The identity of the owners of the cards remains sealed." Barry and Honey Sherman murder case: Police have working theory and ‘an idea of what happened’ | The Star

I have to admit that I don't recall that the Star ever revealed that LE obtained production orders for info on airline loyalty points. But as you noted, they knew that bank records would not provide this information.

ETA It is evident that TPS (after getting beyond the M/S theory) were investigating POI's who left or came into Canada. Greenspan determined that there were more than two perps who were involved at the house. It sounds more like a professional hit, which I suspected, than a local, personal one. imo

 

[casesensitive]

The $10,000,00 reward has produced 291 tips, which have been passed along from Greenspan to TPS on a weekly basis. That's a lot of tips for one cop to handle, although he says he has back up from a handful of investigators who are still available to work on the case.

 

[dotr]

April 26 2019
VIDEO.
Sherman murder case developments - CHCH
"Former Toronto Police Detective and crime author Desmond Ryan joined us to talk about new developments in the Barry and Honey Sherman case."

RADIO. @ 6.30 talk concerning how two very busy high profile people, particularly during the holiday season, would not be missed for two days prior to body discovery.
NEW INFORMATION ON THE HONEY & BARRY SHERMAN MURDER CASE, APRIL 25 2019 - Zoomer Radio AM740
"The Toronto police homicide squad has a working theory in the Barry and Honey Sherman murder case. Detectives are saying they may now know what happened according to one of the lead investigators who said this in court on Wednesday. It’s the first public indication in the 16 months since the billionaire Apotex founder and his wife were strangled that police could be making some progress. The detective also told an Ontario Court of Justice hearing that within a week, police are expecting a “high volume” of electronic records they’ve been trying to get since January. As well, there is at least one person they want to interview who has refused to speak with police. Others they want to speak to may have left the country or simply cannot be located, the investigator told court. Hopefully we’ll learn more soon. Fill-in host Jane Brown speaks with former police officer and security expert Ross McLean to learn more."

 

[deugirtni]

.... RSBM

RADIO. @ 6.30 talk concerning how two very busy high profile people, particularly during the holiday season, would not be missed for two days prior to body discovery.
NEW INFORMATION ON THE HONEY & BARRY SHERMAN MURDER CASE, APRIL 25 2019 - Zoomer Radio AM740
"The Toronto police homicide squad has a working theory in the Barry and Honey Sherman murder case. Detectives are saying they may now know what happened according to one of the lead investigators who said this in court on Wednesday. It’s the first public indication in the 16 months since the billionaire Apotex founder and his wife were strangled that police could be making some progress. The detective also told an Ontario Court of Justice hearing that within a week, police are expecting a “high volume” of electronic records they’ve been trying to get since January. As well, there is at least one person they want to interview who has refused to speak with police. Others they want to speak to may have left the country or simply cannot be located, the investigator told court. Hopefully we’ll learn more soon. Fill-in host Jane Brown speaks with former police officer and security expert Ross McLean to learn more."

Unreal.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Unreal.

Which part?

 

[1&2&3]

Is it legal to refuse to speak with LE in Canada? What is LE’s next step to get them to talk?

So, TPD waited until January 2019 to ask for electronic records, thought to be cell/telephone records? This may explain why they haven’t had any luck solving this case-a little bit slow in knowing the process to follow in a double homicide case?!

And what is this “working theory” the TPD has come up with? It seems to involve frequent flyer miles. Any ideas?

 

[1&2&3]

I would love to see someone claim the $10,000,000.00.

I have not decided if the adult children put that up thinking they would never have to pay it. Just hoping a tip would be the steppingstone to the right path that would eventually lead to the murderers. Don’t recall the requirements listed on it. Or if the children sincerely wanted to pay it for a resolution to their parents death.

No doubt they have the money. With three or four children dividing the ten million, it will be a small bite out of their inheritance. (Don’t recall the exact number of children.)

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Is it legal to refuse to speak with LE in Canada? What is LE’s next step to get them to talk?

So, TPD waited until January 2019 to ask for electronic records, thought to be cell/telephone records? This may explain why they haven’t had any luck solving this case-a little bit slow in knowing the process to follow in a double homicide case?!

And what is this “working theory” the TPD has come up with? It seems to involve frequent flyer miles. Any ideas?

I believe they have the right to remain silent and to retain counsel.

What are my rights if I'm detained or arrested? | Steps to Justice | Your guide to law in Ontario

We don’t know the working theory yet. Hopefully this week we might find out about what ‘entity’ is involved (it could be google, FB, Bell...we don’t know.) The rewards programs we heard about early on, but it might be a new one.

The killers might have taken the Shermans’ wallets and the TPS were just checking for activity after they were last seen alive. If they got out of the country with the Shermans’ rewards card, I might faint.

They may have just pinpointed a suspect or suspect(s) recently. Or gathered what they needed to secure a warrant. Long ago the Star reported the judge signed a warrant on a Sunday evening- that sounded unusual, but promising.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I would love to see someone claim the $10,000,000.00.

I have not decided if the adult children put that up thinking they would never have to pay it. Just hoping a tip would be the steppingstone to the right path that would eventually lead to the murderers. Don’t recall the requirements listed on it. Or if the children sincerely wanted to pay it for a resolution to their parents death.

No doubt they have the money. With three or four children dividing the ten million, it will be a small bite out of their inheritance. (Don’t recall the exact number of children.)

My guess is that the Greenspan team can support the informant while the case is being built. It’s worded as ‘up to’ 10M and no mention of information leading to a conviction.

The way they worded it seems like it’s negotiable. Maybe the one person not talking to police is talking to the Greenspan team.

A question for the legal minds here: if a person with information that may implicate them of a crime contacts the Greenspan team, can Greenspan become their lawyer and what they tell him falls under client/attorney privilege?

(Eg: They hacked the realtor’s computer and gave the lock-box combination to the killers.)

 

[deugirtni]

Which part?

The whole thing. It's just unbelievable to me. Unbelievable to the point that it's really difficult to imagine that TPS really ARE as incompetent as they SEEM to be.. which many descriptions of their incompetence are given in this interview, and by someone with no bone to pick with them.

It would make me wonder if, right from the get-go, somehow police had a reason for doing the things they did.. but then that theory is kind of blown out of the water when we hear that normally in Toronto, the *street* is blocked off, even for a much less serious crime, but yet in the Shermans' case, they only taped off the front of the property - which then left them open to someone finding that earring after TPS released the property (which took some 6 weeks!), which *seemed* like it could be Honey's earring - now they can't know if it had been planted by someone, at some time *after* the discovery of their bodies, or if it had been there all along and was simply missed by TPS.

This interview just brought it all back about how incompetently it *seems* that this investigation was, right from the start. And now we're hearing that they requested piles of records, but only did so in January 2019, more than a year after the fact. Just unreal to me. Like, what the HAY is going on with TPS? Seriously?

 

[MistyWaters]

The whole thing. It's just unbelievable to me. Unbelievable to the point that it's really difficult to imagine that TPS really ARE as incompetent as they SEEM to be.. which many descriptions of their incompetence are given in this interview, and by someone with no bone to pick with them.

It would make me wonder if, right from the get-go, somehow police had a reason for doing the things they did.. but then that theory is kind of blown out of the water when we hear that normally in Toronto, the *street* is blocked off, even for a much less serious crime, but yet in the Shermans' case, they only taped off the front of the property - which then left them open to someone finding that earring after TPS released the property (which took some 6 weeks!), which *seemed* like it could be Honey's earring - now they can't know if it had been planted by someone, at some time *after* the discovery of their bodies, or if it had been there all along and was simply missed by TPS.

This interview just brought it all back about how incompetently it *seems* that this investigation was, right from the start. And now we're hearing that they requested piles of records, but only did so in January 2019, more than a year after the fact. Just unreal to me. Like, what the HAY is going on with TPS? Seriously?

Well if the electric files relate to a suspect, sequential progress brought the investigation to that point and 15 months certainly isn’t an extraordinary amount of time.

Given TPS has been waiting since January for the unknown electronic records, that’s not the fault of TPS but an example of why investigations can take months and years.

Just an example - X becomes a suspect. Perhaps it was because of months of celltower, digital or DNA analysis. Police require a separate warrant to search X’s computer and any other electronic device. After forensic examination, which takes time, they discover X has a FB account but the data has been erased. So then they must subpoena FB to determine if what was erased is of any interest.

JMO

 

[Lexiintoronto]

The whole thing. It's just unbelievable to me. Unbelievable to the point that it's really difficult to imagine that TPS really ARE as incompetent as they SEEM to be.. which many descriptions of their incompetence are given in this interview, and by someone with no bone to pick with them.

It would make me wonder if, right from the get-go, somehow police had a reason for doing the things they did.. but then that theory is kind of blown out of the water when we hear that normally in Toronto, the *street* is blocked off, even for a much less serious crime, but yet in the Shermans' case, they only taped off the front of the property - which then left them open to someone finding that earring after TPS released the property (which took some 6 weeks!), which *seemed* like it could be Honey's earring - now they can't know if it had been planted by someone, at some time *after* the discovery of their bodies, or if it had been there all along and was simply missed by TPS.

This interview just brought it all back about how incompetently it *seems* that this investigation was, right from the start. And now we're hearing that they requested piles of records, but only did so in January 2019, more than a year after the fact. Just unreal to me. Like, what the HAY is going on with TPS? Seriously?

I had the same reaction. : (

Early on, Joe Warmington mentioned that he found the scene strange because the area taped off was small and the media was able to get so close.

The media even had clear shots of the bodies being removed.

 

[MistyWaters]

My guess is that the Greenspan team can support the informant while the case is being built. It’s worded as ‘up to’ 10M and no mention of information leading to a conviction.

The way they worded it seems like it’s negotiable. Maybe the one person not talking to police is talking to the Greenspan team.

A question for the legal minds here: if a person with information that may implicate them of a crime contacts the Greenspan team, can Greenspan become their lawyer and what they tell him falls under client/attorney privilege?

(Eg: They hacked the realtor’s computer and gave the lock-box combination to the killers.)

Your question reminded me of something I recently read, regarding lawyers, PIs and privilege, although it doesn’t directly answer it.

Why should a lawyer and not a client retain the investigator?
“It is wise for anyone requiring the services of a private investigator, who foresees that the investigation may result in litigation, to first retain a lawyer. The reason for this is the legal concept of litigation privilege. When a lawyer is retained and the lawyer in turn retains the private investigator, all information provided by the private investigator is privileged if not used as evidence. In litigation, private investigators cannot claim a qualified privilege between themselves and their clients.”
Investigation services - Legal Line

 

[MistyWaters]

Is it legal to refuse to speak with LE in Canada? What is LE’s next step to get them to talk?

So, TPD waited until January 2019 to ask for electronic records, thought to be cell/telephone records? This may explain why they haven’t had any luck solving this case-a little bit slow in knowing the process to follow in a double homicide case?!

And what is this “working theory” the TPD has come up with? It seems to involve frequent flyer miles. Any ideas?

My best idea is the working theory doesn’t involve frequent flyer miles.