Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #99

[x_files]

JMO

I'm sorry, but these articles are the worst of how "touch DNA" can be used by an unethical DA to try to absolve personal friends. It is almost a primer on the dangers of "touch DNA." Mary Lacy believed the Ramseys were innocent because she thought she saw a butt print in a hallway when she toured their house four days after it was released by crime scene technicians. This is a fact. Google it. The woman is truly nuts.

Lacy's "exoneration" was as worthless as the paper it was written on. Lacy had no authority to do what she did, and she should have been removed from office for such an egregious misuse of legal means, as well as unethical conduct.

The DA after Lacy, Stan Garnett, said Lacy's exoneration meant nothing and the Ramseys are still suspects. However, that hasn't stopped the media from cutting and pasting the lie that the Ramseys have been exonerated and cleared by DNA.

Furthermore, even the lab Lacy used to try to complete her trickery, Bode Labs, told her they needed to do a retest to make sure the results could be duplicated and confirmed. Lacy refused. Then she took the report, extracted a few lines from it, left out the most important parts, then refused to release it to the public or take questions at the press conference. It was a fait accompli.

It wasn't until reporter Charlie Brennan got the Bode Lab reports in October 2016, using an FOI request, the public was able to see what they really contained, and Lacy's chicanery was exposed.

And all because of a "butt print."

Butt print?! How did I miss this...wow.

 

[Charlot123]

If it's a father/son working in tandem, then maybe hoping someone will turn them in.

I doubt it. If it is a tandem, then the reason for the murders would be very different (removing witnesses?)

I would not be surprised if one “cleans” the other’s mess, though.

It comes back to the same issue. Motive. We think it is sexual, but... What could the girls inadvertently see? Libby took a lot of photos, maybe it was something she saw way earlier, months earlier, and she needed to be removed?

 

[Cyber sleuth]

So the investigative focus is still on the driver of the parked vehicle, a car -

“Police are still hoping for fresh tips about one piece of information released in the news conference.

We're still looking for the car that was parked in the lot," Riley told News 18. "If somebody can give us that information, we want that information as quickly as possible."

The importance of the car also ties into why police now believe the killer is local. Riley said after reviewing many tips, investigators determined he was able to get around quickly on the day the girls were killed, and seemed to know the area.”

Car or driver or both? I was under the impression that they have a witness to the car. May have even tracked it down to it owners ( possibly new owners after 3/2017). So why ask for another witness? Why not just go back to original witness? And if there is not a witness or said vehicle- then how do they even know one was there?
I’m baffled.
I hope this was just in error in communication.

 

[susiQ]

Hi sunshineray, the best LE explanation ( of my recollection)is the following article on Sketch 1:

Delphi, Indiana murder case: Sketch of suspect released in girls' slayings

BY CRIMESIDER STAFF

UPDATED ON: JULY 17, 2017 / 4:05 PM / CBS/AP

The Sketch is "an artist's composite of the information" collected by all the agencies involved in the double-murder investigation, including the FBI, said Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley. Riley said investigators consider the sketch a "very important" development in the ongoing investigation.

<snip>

Riley told CBS affiliate WTTV the sketch is the result of information called in to a tip line and follow-up investigations in the past couple of weeks. Riley could not comment to the station as to whether police are close to making an arrest.​

Delphi, Indiana murder case: Sketch of suspect released in girls' slayings

MOO
I hope I’m Not Beating A Dead Horse

I'm more interested/concerned about why the first sketch, the one produced a mere 3 days after the murders was "shelved". Why was it ignored? Obviously, it WAS important because that's who they're looking for now. WHY, WHY, WHY? MHO

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Now THAT is thorough!! Can anyone remember a case where all or part of the crime scene was outdoors and they preserved it like this? At least 6 months of evidence collection. What dedication.

I can’t imagine. An overwhelming task.

 

[mekeritrig]

Car or driver or both? I was under the impression that they have a witness to the car. May have even tracked it down to it owners ( possibly new owners after 3/2017). So why ask for another witness? Why not just go back to original witness? And if there is not a witness or said vehicle- then how do they even know one was there?
I’m baffled.
I hope this was just in error in communication.

Having a description (make/model/color) doesn't mean investigators would know who the car belongs to. There could be dozens or hundreds of cars of a similar description in the area if it was generic enough.

 

[kkdj]

Car or driver or both? I was under the impression that they have a witness to the car. May have even tracked it down to it owners ( possibly new owners after 3/2017). So why ask for another witness? Why not just go back to original witness? And if there is not a witness or said vehicle- then how do they even know one was there?
I’m baffled.
I hope this was just in error in communication.

LE knows who owns the vehicle. They also know who has access to driving it. All those parties must have an alibi imo, and LE needs someone to come forward and say who was really driving it that day. I do think they are close.
ETA.....I'm assuming LE knows who owns the vehicle. If not, ignore my post.

 

[x_files]

Jumping off the discussion, I did some googling and came across some interesting articles; there is much documentation on this subject.

A few snippets from the first few google results:

“While reporting on criminal justice for The New York Times, journalist Fox Butterfield was in and out of prisons a lot. One thing he saw struck him. “In a number of places I visited there were fathers and sons in the same cell,” he said. “I was really taken by this, and I started writing about how crime runs in the families.”

Snip

“This fits with the research, Butterfield added. “I kept stumbling across these studies,” he said, “showing these incredibly high rates of crime being passed down through families.” For years, scholars have studied risk factors for crime, including poverty, lack of education, and growing up in dangerous neighborhoods, but, said Butterfield, “all kids start out their lives within their family.””

—-

Now, FTR, of course not all people who have criminals in their families or are raised by criminals take the same course. Many want to be just the opposite, MOO.

—-

Back to the studies (interesting stuff, imo)...

“This intergenerational transmission of violence was first documented in the 1940s when a husband-and-wife team at Harvard Law School foundthat two-thirds of boys in the Boston area sent by a court to a reformatory had a father who had been arrested; 45 percent also had a mother who had been arrested. And, in 2007, the Justice Department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics concluded that half of the roughly 800,000 parents behind bars have a close relative who has previously been incarcerated.”

When Crime Is a Family Affair

—-

A Neuroscientist Uncovers A Dark Secret

“The criminal brain has always held a fascination for James Fallon. For nearly 20 years, the neuroscientist at the University of California-Irvine has studied the brains of psychopaths. He studies the biological basis for behavior, and one of his specialties is to try to figure out how a killer's brain differs from yours and mine.

About four years ago, Fallon made a startling discovery. It happened during a conversation with his then 88-year-old mother, Jenny, at a family barbecue.

"I said, 'Jim, why don't you find out about your father's relatives?' " Jenny Fallon recalls. "I think there were some cuckoos back there."

Fallon investigated.

"There's a whole lineage of very violent people -- killers," he says.

One of his direct great-grandfathers, Thomas Cornell, was hanged in 1667 for murdering his mother. That line of Cornells produced seven other alleged murderers, including Lizzy Borden. "Cousin Lizzy," as Fallon wryly calls her, was accused (and controversially acquitted) of killing her father and stepmother with an ax in Fall River, Mass., in 1882.”

Snip

“After learning his violent family history, he examined the images and compared them with the brains of psychopaths. His wife's scan was normal. His mother: normal. His siblings: normal. His children: normal.

"And I took a look at my own PET scan and saw something disturbing that I did not talk about," he says.

What he didn't want to reveal was that his orbital cortex looks inactive.

"If you look at the PET scan, I look just like one of those killers."”

Snip

“Fallon calls up another slide on his computer. It has a list of family members' names, and next to them, the results of the genotyping. Everyone in his family has the low-aggression variant of the MAO-A gene, except for one person.

"You see that? I'm 100 percent. I have the pattern, the risky pattern," he says, then pauses. "In a sense, I'm a born killer."”
—-

Along the same lines as related to juveniles, from NCJRS.gov report (we have no idea how BG was raised or what kind of family he comes from. Just an article for some brain food for advocates, etc. If too off topic, please delete.)

“FOREWORD
The family is the fundamental building block of human society. Consequently, the foundation of our Nation is only as strong as America's families. There is much to be learned about the effects of family life on delinquency and crime. This report provides a good base for what is known and what is yet to be learned. I encourage those most directly involved in helping children reach adulthood to read this report with an eye to addressing these variables in their prevention and intervention efforts.
The role of the family in the prevention and treatment of juvenile delinquency has concerned the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention (OJJDP) from our inception. The report you are about to read makes a major contribution to our understanding of this critical topic. It describes not only how parental supervision and other aspects of sound family life prevent delinquency, but also how the absence of parental involvement, or even negative parental influences, may promote its development.
The home is the natural school for children. It is certainly the first. Through bonding with their parents, children internalize the moral values that are likely to shape their future conduct. Accordingly, as the report observes, "Children who are rejected by their parents, grow up in homes with considerable conflict, and are inadequately supervised are at greatest risk of becoming delinquents."
Family Life addresses not only the family life of children who may commit juvenile offenses but the family life of adults who may commit criminal acts. It examines such intriguing questions as whether being married or being a parent reduces the likelihood of criminal activity and whether the family ties of prisoners assist their rehabilitation and return to the community.
The family is under siege. The chance that a child will reach adulthood raised by its first parents has never been lower. OJJDP is committed to strengthening the family, not simply to prevent delinquency, but also to protect the children of our Nation.
Gerald (Jerry) P. Regier Acting Administrator”

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/140517NCJRS.pdf

—-

absolutely fascinating. thank you.

 

[enelram]

Yes. How could they know that he moved quickly if they don’t know who he is. I think maybe there is some sort of video footage of the car in question and they just need to verify who was driving it that day. JMO.

I wonder if the LE have checked ALL gas stations within, say, certain # miles away to see if "the right car" was there buying gas.
Surely gas stations in Indiana have video and surely the driver
of said car would be visible on video pumping gas.
I've seen in other areas where local LE have limited funds and
personnel to adequately investigate horrible crimes. And the
crimes just languish whereas in areas with more personnel
and funds crimes get solved much sooner.
I see the difference from county to county in my area.
It's much more difficult to solve crimes in rural areas, imo.

 

[FinePrint]

I just re watched a GH video that I had seen some time ago. Wow....I urge anyone who hasn't seen it or if its been a while since you've seen it you should take a second look. In light off the latest details provided by LE this video gives some good context.
Derrick's Path and more Libby and Abby Delphi Indiana

@Wells I think this will help you in your witness study.

 

[neesaki]

Opinion - I think it means that vehicle at the abandoned building along with other info, has led LE to believe, that someone has lied to them about where they were on the 13th....moo

But if they know about the car, why say they’re looking for the car , why can’t they find it? Did someone just ditch it off a cliff or something? Or like that case in Austin, it’s hiding off in someones storage building all this time?

 

[Cyber sleuth]

LE knows who owns the vehicle. They also know who has access to driving it. All those parties must have an alibi imo, and LE needs someone to come forward and say who was really driving it that day. I do think they are close.

This is what I was hoping after the press release on the 22nd. That they were trying to place the driver at/near the scene. Then reading the statement above made me feel they weren’t as far along as I assumed.

 

[x_files]

LE knows who owns the vehicle. They also know who has access to driving it. All those parties must have an alibi imo, and LE needs someone to come forward and say who was really driving it that day. I do think they are close.

agreed!

 

[x_files]

But if they know about the car, why say they’re looking for the car , why can’t they find it? Did someone just ditch it off a cliff or something? Or like that case in Austin, it’s hiding off in someones storage building all this time?

I don't think the car is abandoned nor missing. LE wants info on who was driving that day, any eyewitnesses that saw that car that day. That's what gathered from the presser.

 

[FinePrint]

I wonder if the LE have checked ALL gas stations within, say, certain # miles away to see if "the right car" was there buying gas.
Surely gas stations in Indiana have video and surely the driver
of said car would be visible on video pumping gas.
I've seen in other areas where local LE have limited funds and
personnel to adequately investigate horrible crimes. And the
crimes just languish whereas in areas with more personnel
and funds crimes get solved much sooner.
I see the difference from county to county in my area.
It's much more difficult to solve crimes in rural areas, imo.

I did notice a business in between the trail drop off area and the social service building. Not sure I can post the name of the business but it is a farm supply business. I wonder if by chance they had a security camera pointing towards the road.

 

[SilentRogue]

LE knows who owns the vehicle. They also know who has access to driving it. All those parties must have an alibi imo, and LE needs someone to come forward and say who was really driving it that day. I do think they are close.

I know it's hard to accept, but they're not even remotely close to solving this case. They have nothing.

<modsnip - rude>

It was clear during the press conference, it's clear now.

 

[Wells]

I just skipped from the top of page 17 to the bottom of page 17 but here's a wild idea. We have been assuming that LE is looking for the suspect who was seen driving the vehicle. We could be totally wrong. LE could be looking for the ALIBI who was driving the vehicle. Let me explain. Let's say LE has a description of a vehicle they believe was connected to the crime. Alibi says early on, "I was the one driving the vehicle, not Suspect John Doe. " If they can determine that the ALIBI is lying, that might make the job of getting the alibi to tell the truth that much easier.

Quoting my own post for clarification. Let's say LE has a vehicle connected to the crime and a suspect. Alibi Jane Doe says, Suspect John Doe couldn't possibly have been driving the vehicle that day because I was. LE says well, we know it wasn't Alibi Jane Doe because she is a lady (or because he doesn't fit the description of BG at all, in any way, shape or form)! Two years later, LE asks the question, "Who saw the driver?" Man About Town comes forward and says I saw the vehicle in town that day. I didn't recognize the driver but it DEFINITELY wasn't Alibi Jane Doe."

 

[x_files]

I hope you're right because asking someone to come forward NOW and remember a car they saw there 2+ years ago out of the blue seems impossible.

Not to the owner of the vehicle, they'd know if they loaned to their son or co-worker, or the wife would know if her husband went hiking alone or with the son. Or a gf or best friend would know if her bf went to the bridge that day with her or maybe w/o her.

 

[neesaki]

From WLFI

"Monday marked two weeks since new information was released in the Delphi double homicide investigation, and State Police spoke to News 18 about the changes.

While Sgt. Kim Riley wouldn't give any more details on why police changed the sketch, he said it makes investigators feel closer to catching the killer.

"We just feel this is a more accurate account of what we believe is the possible murder suspect in this Abby and Libby case," said Riley.

However, he said police have received a lot of new information on people who live in the area since releasing the sketch. That's important, because investigators believe the killer has close ties to Delphi"

Police are still hoping for fresh tips about one piece of information released in the news conference.

"We're still looking for the car that was parked in the lot," Riley told News 18. "If somebody can give us that information, we want that information as quickly as possible."

The importance of the car also ties into why police now believe the killer is local. Riley said after reviewing many tips, investigators determined he was able to get around quickly on the day the girls were killed, and seemed to know the area.

The car would have been seen between noon and five on Feb. 13, 2017 at the old DCS parking lot, according to police. The office is on County Road 300 North near the Hoosier Heartland Highway. The building has since been demolished and the lot is vacant.

Since police believe the killer is local, and because the case has received so much of their focus over the last two years, News 18 also asked Riley if there was a chance the killer could be someone police have already interviewed.

"Somebody may have already interviewed him," said Riley. "I'm not going to say they have or have not, but there's a possibility that has happened. The person apparently gave the investigating officers the information they were looking for. We have to try to go back and check on the information that we have received."

According to this article, Riley states “still looking for the car that was parked in the lot”.

 

[x_files]

Yes they can get DNA from a family member.
The GSK had a cousin (?) In a nursing home - police got warrant for his DNA swab. When police told them
what they wanted the sample for he voluntarily gave a sample , and late said he was proud to have helped.



MOO finding all the reasons why that touch DNA is present opens lines of investigation.
MOO even though the presence of a suspects touch DNA's can be successfully challenged by a defense attorney, MOO it's still is a huge tool for the detectives.

I wonder if the suspect is paranoid and opting to not put out his trash the past few years or the last two weeks.
I mean how would the suspect throw out his trash? Anything he touched or used could be evidence!