Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #99

[kkdj]

I had another what if moment. The coffee is strong this morning and doing it's job. Let's say Suspect John Doe has a deep hatred for those he is closest to (for whatever reason). What if Suspect John Doe DELIBERATELY borrowed a vehicle from Alibi Jane Doe, HOPING it would throw suspicion on the Alibi.

and while Jane Doe was at work and wouldn't have noticed.

 

[kc1023]

Hesitant to post bc I felt sad for RL, but since he has come up today (i think today), is it possible someone did know him and was trying to make him the fall guy? First released sketch resembled him, BG dressed like him, girls found on his property... it almost might have worked too. Maybe a land grab or some other personal thing?

Just some random Tues thoughts, nothing but moo

 

[sunshineray]

I just skipped from the top of page 17 to the bottom of page 17 but here's a wild idea. We have been assuming that LE is looking for the suspect who was seen driving the vehicle. We could be totally wrong. LE could be looking for the ALIBI who was driving the vehicle. Let me explain. Let's say LE has a description of a vehicle they believe was connected to the crime. Alibi says early on, "I was the one driving the vehicle, not Suspect John Doe. " If they can determine that the ALIBI is lying, that might make the job of getting the alibi to tell the truth that much easier.

If LE absolutely knows who the driver of that car is and are putting a plea out for the general public to come forward and identify that person, that person claiming ownership is in the hot seat! That could be why no description has been given, LE knows either a witness, even possibly a subsequent searcher, on the scene at the time of the murders is lying or a local is lying about even being on the scene with that vehicle. Very interesting take Wells, food for thought.

 

[margarita25]

Came across this while looking for another quote and I thought it was worthy of reposting as it talks a lot about the girls and their bond:

Delphi Daughters: The untold story of Abby & Libby

Abigail Joyce Williams

Liberty Rose Lynn German

Abigail “Abby” Williams and Liberty “Libby” German had a bond stronger than most.

A rare mid-February Monday off from school prompted the pair to do what any teenage friends would do the day before: They had a sleepover.

The girls shared a variety of interests; both loved art, both enjoyed sports and both played alto sax in the Delphi Community Middle School band.

Abby brought her big box of arts and crafts over to Libby’s house and sprawled them across the floor of Libby’s room on that Sunday night. The girls painted photos of nature on canvases as they giggled and shared intimate secrets like most young girls do.

Earlier that day, the two had been in the back yard practicing their softball swing in excited anticipation of the upcoming season.

Libby, 14, had convinced Abby, 13, to join her on the team this year.

The next day was an unseasonably warm day and the girls went out to enjoy another one of their shared hobbies by taking photos of one of their favorite places: The Monon High Bridge, Delphi’s tallest scenic attraction.

This was a bond that not even a killer could break.

 

[Charlot123]

I'm more interested/concerned about why the first sketch, the one produced a mere 3 days after the murders was "shelved". Why was it ignored? Obviously, it WAS important because that's who they're looking for now. WHY, WHY, WHY? MHO

Same question. Someone ignored too many things it seems.

 

[kkdj]

Same question. Someone ignored too many things it seems.

Or strongly and convincingly led in a different direction...

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I felt the same way and have been reading around different sites what people are saying but it is all rumor so can't quote. IMO though it's possible that the #1 sketch guy was maybe found, arrested, tested and cleared of being the killer? Maybe this vagrant guy was also spotted by numerous witnesses the day of the murders? He could have given LE a tip that helped turn them in the right direction? His info could have possibly matched the sketch #2 witnesses account of things. AJMO

My thought is still that the new sketch guy was never really cleared because he was never properly investigated. I think he was known by local police and dismissed because of familiarity. If ISP or the FBI had questions about him, local LE vouched for him.
This is not an indictment of the local police. I imagine things were very hectic and confused the first few days after the murders. I can understand there being a mentality of “don’t waste time on this guy we know is OK, let’s go find the real bad guy”. It’s unfortunate LE got so sidetracked they didn’t come back to it for two years.
My problem with my own theory is why is LE acting like they don’t know who it is? Arguing with myself! LOL!

 

[Boxer]

I’m not sure it’s fair to say they are starting at square one.

They have thousands of pages of investigative material that they now have at their fingertips

Different direction absolutely

Square one not so much

Agree.
MOO since there so little evidence this is a puzzle of elimination, and they have been doing that.
MOO now they are sure he is local and they have a likeness.

 

[SeattleStew]

So the investigative focus is still on the driver of the parked vehicle, a car -

“Police are still hoping for fresh tips about one piece of information released in the news conference.

We're still looking for the car that was parked in the lot," Riley told News 18. "If somebody can give us that information, we want that information as quickly as possible."

The importance of the car also ties into why police now believe the killer is local. Riley said after reviewing many tips, investigators determined he was able to get around quickly on the day the girls were killed, and seemed to know the area.”

Underlined by me. I don't have evidence, but I always assumed that Libby's phone was found at/near the crime scene. Seeing this new quote lends credence to the what some have found to be an off-hand type remark about Libby's phone "pinging all over town" that day. I had assumed he had meant before the girls disappeared, as it has been mentioned that Libby was asking around for a ride to the park that day.

Now, I think the perp had Libby's phone, and carried it around town later that day to locations that investigators may make the case for the perp being a local or locally connected (seem to know the area).

Also, "the importance of the car being local." How would they know that unless they had the tag number OR was there some local business advertisement on the car? For example only: Uber sign? Pizza delivery? What other cars would have a local business advertised on them? Car seems to rule out a work truck type vehicle, plumber etc.

What say you? Looking for feedback. TIA.

 

[MistyWaters]

I’m not sure it’s fair to say they are starting at square one.

They have thousands of pages of investigative material that they now have at their fingertips

Different direction absolutely

Square one not so much

I don’t think they’re starting at square one either.

Nobody witnessed the murders so from the very beginning, all LE had to go on was various sightings of men in the area who resembled the grainy photo. After the first five months and no arrests, for whatever reason, they decided to present sketch #1 to the public as the most probable suspect by announcing they believe this was the person who was responsible for the double murder. How accurate was the sketch we’ll probably never know. That route didn’t prove successful and as the investigation continued something caused the man illustrated in sketch #2, the driver of a vehicle, to rise in significance so the investigation proceeded in that new direction.

Investigations are always fluid, in continual motion until it’s conclusion.

I think any confusion and frustration over how LE is conducting this investigation is due to various theories or preconceived notions which LE have never confirmed nor promoted including -
- they know who this guy is.
- sketch #1 is connected to sketch #2
- sketches are exact images like a photograph.
- they have a good DNA sample of the murderer which is key evidence to solving the case.

 

[Charlot123]

If they know the car, they can try the departure site. Or potential departures. Someone could see the person getting into it in the AM. It is not that difficult to check where any potential driver spent the previous night, and start from that point.

On a side note, they are reconstructing the bridge. Seems like investing into cameras should be appropriate.

 

[margarita25]

So much healing for the community is needed / I wonder what the next community event will be and if the church has any other events coming up:

DELPHI, Ind. In Delhpi this weekend, community members will come together for a healing walk where the bodies of 14-year-old Liberty German and 13-year-old Abigail Williams were found in February.

Sunday afternoon, the pastor of Delphi United Methodist Church will lead people down the Monon High Bridge Trail.

Healing walk in Delphi in remembrance of Libby German, Abby Williams
May 05, 2017

 

[enelram]

The difficulties of solving crimes in rural areas is explained in
this lengthy but worthwile study/report.

As I mentioned earlier, size of local LE dept and their available
resources can affect the clearance rate of crimes.

Poor, rural areas just don't have the financial resources to devote to crime solutions. Homicide investigations are expensive and
demand lots of man hours to adequately clear cases.

Another problem here is the mention of lower level crimes in small
rural areas tend to be handled informally without reporting to
LE. Locals want to take care of these problems without outsider interference. And still, many locals do not trust LE.
Good reading:

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/rcrp.pdf

 

[Charlot123]

Underlined by me. I don't have evidence, but I always assumed that Libby's phone was found at/near the crime scene. Seeing this new quote lends credence to the what some have found to be an off-hand type remark about Libby's phone "pinging all over town" that day. I had assumed he had meant before the girls disappeared, as it has been mentioned that Libby was asking around for a ride to the park that day.

Now, I think the perp had Libby's phone, and carried it around town later that day to locations that investigators may make the case for the perp being a local or locally connected (seem to know the area).

Also, "the importance of the car being local." How would they know that unless they had the tag number OR was there some local business advertisement on the car? For example only: Uber sign? Pizza delivery? What other cars would have a local business advertised on them? Car seems to rule out a work truck type vehicle, plumber etc.

What say you? Looking for feedback. TIA.

Well, if it was pinging all around the town, it was not dead, was it? And it is potentially possible to check the public places where it pinged. Or even residential areas. If they think they know who it is, how about asking his friends in that area? At least placing him in Delphi that day.

Maybe the person was overwhelmed and threw it out later. Close to the bodies. Meaning he either approached them at night, or was among the search party?

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Underlined by me. I don't have evidence, but I always assumed that Libby's phone was found at/near the crime scene. Seeing this new quote lends credence to the what some have found to be an off-hand type remark about Libby's phone "pinging all over town" that day. I had assumed he had meant before the girls disappeared, as it has been mentioned that Libby was asking around for a ride to the park that day.

Now, I think the perp had Libby's phone, and carried it around town later that day to locations that investigators may make the case for the perp being a local or locally connected (seem to know the area).

Also, "the importance of the car being local." How would they know that unless they had the tag number OR was there some local business advertisement on the car? For example only: Uber sign? Pizza delivery? What other cars would have a local business advertised on them? Car seems to rule out a work truck type vehicle, plumber etc.

What say you? Looking for feedback. TIA.

I am over a thread behind and trying hard to catch up, but here is a good a place as any to start. Quoted is BBM.

A police car or a fire department vehicle.
JMO

 

[margarita25]

This is interesting, moo:

From Spellbound's transcript of Holeman interview - Found Deceased - IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #65

PART 2:
A: [5.34] When the people come forward that mentioned, you know, because that sketch behind you is pretty detailed, like we said, and the guy that did it is obviously unbelievably talented because he maybe didn't have a bunch of information but it's unbelievable what they could come up with, right, and make it into this composite sketch that could end up helping crack the case. But, when did those people come forward that said that they saw him possibly near the trail?

H: Well, that's a good question. It's actually compiled, it's not just from one person, so we've had several people say that they saw the person that we identified through the video that we obtained off of Liberty's phone. And we put that out so once people saw that photo then they said "oh I saw that guy; I saw that guy." We have to determine 'is that the guy they saw' first of all, and if it is then let's work together. So, we were getting calls that night, and throughout the last couple months. Some people don't watch the news. Some people don't really follow what's going on . So some of them were sooner-than-later, um. But then we took our time with that. We took our time, we interviewed the composite drawing itself took probably 2/12 to 3 weeks, because we wanted to make sure ourselves that it was exactly right at the people had recalled that. So, um, we have been, I think, getting better tips. Obviously the first photo is pretty hard to see. It's pixelated pretty bad, and this is pretty detailed. We want to make sure that people know this might not look exactly like the person, but it's gonna have similar facial features. So, this is just what the person or persons that we've interviewed over the last several months believe this is what this guy looked like. There's four of us in this room right now. If somebody walked into this room for 30 seconds and left, we'd all have different drawings, but I think the facial features and the major identifiers we would all get right. So, that's what we're hoping, that this gives us a little more guidance, a little more not-as-vague. And it's helping. We are getting better tips. We're still getting some not-so-good tips, I would say. But we're getting a little better tips from this composite drawing.

 

[Boxer]

One more thing...when BTK was active little was known about DNA evidence. In the Golden State Killer case the guy left copious amounts of DNA without a care in the world. Today's criminals are aware and more circumspect. BTW this is a great forum with lots of interesting ideas. Lack of agreement that generates discussion is a good thing. Helps everyone look at things from different angles.

Agree, todays criminals understand they need to leave no DNA. That is easier said than done
and takes some planning, which in itself also leaves a evidence trail.

Underlined by me. I don't have evidence, but I always assumed that Libby's phone was found at/near the crime scene. Seeing this new quote lends credence to the what some have found to be an off-hand type remark about Libby's phone "pinging all over town" that day. I had assumed he had meant before the girls disappeared, as it has been mentioned that Libby was asking around for a ride to the park that day.

Now, I think the perp had Libby's phone, and carried it around town later that day to locations that investigators may make the case for the perp being a local or locally connected (seem to know the area).

Also, "the importance of the car being local." How would they know that unless they had the tag number OR was there some local business advertisement on the car? For example only: Uber sign? Pizza delivery? What other cars would have a local business advertised on them? Car seems to rule out a work truck type vehicle, plumber etc.

What say you? Looking for feedback. TIA.

Good thoughts.
The police have said the phone was found near Abby and Libby.
They did search a a house on Bicycle Bridge Rd., thoroughly going through the grass apparently looking for something small. Possibly a backpack?
I have wondered what object could have brought them to that exact location.
MOO If it was the phone, thrown from a vehicle - police would have known the probable way the suspect left town, but they never asked about a car or person going toward Lafayette 2/13/17 on secondary roads.

UPDATED: Homicide investigation generates search warrant

 

[ilovechili]

I'm more interested/concerned about why the first sketch, the one produced a mere 3 days after the murders was "shelved". Why was it ignored? Obviously, it WAS important because that's who they're looking for now. WHY, WHY, WHY? MHO

Thoughts on this:

They had the pic from the phone and felt the subject did not match the pic/video, clothing too large, gait, age, etc.?

-or-

Someone described this person they had seen on the trail. It was identified who it was and he was located and talked to. They knew him or his family, believed him and/or he was alibied "solidly" so they shelved him or considered him just another witness/hiker, just as the person who described him was probably considered...

-or-

Perhaps the person responsible for this sketch was not trusted for some reason and no one else's account matched hers or they felt it was a false accusation against someone she did not like or had it in for...?

-or-

A combination of some of these things...?

The next question which has been asked is what changed this? Did an alibi start to come apart? Have they realized he is not the kind of guy they thought he was? But why two years? Did new or advanced technology help maybe with the video, etc., show it was clearly a disguise? Did someone come forward? Are there two involved in some way...? The first one is known (sketch) and only now they know they need to find the second as well...?

I tend to wonder if they know who but need just a bit more evidence for a prosecutor to bring the case... Or are attempting to get a bit more before they charge it with less...? Coming forward after an arrest would probably not be as meaningful as if they can get an independent witness or someone now before an arrest...?

Just talking out loud. All jmo.

 

[sunshineray]

From WLFI

"Monday marked two weeks since new information was released in the Delphi double homicide investigation, and State Police spoke to News 18 about the changes.

While Sgt. Kim Riley wouldn't give any more details on why police changed the sketch, he said it makes investigators feel closer to catching the killer.

"We just feel this is a more accurate account of what we believe is the possible murder suspect in this Abby and Libby case," said Riley.

However, he said police have received a lot of new information on people who live in the area since releasing the sketch. That's important, because investigators believe the killer has close ties to Delphi"

Police are still hoping for fresh tips about one piece of information released in the news conference.

"We're still looking for the car that was parked in the lot," Riley told News 18. "If somebody can give us that information, we want that information as quickly as possible."

The importance of the car also ties into why police now believe the killer is local. Riley said after reviewing many tips, investigators determined he was able to get around quickly on the day the girls were killed, and seemed to know the area.

The car would have been seen between noon and five on Feb. 13, 2017 at the old DCS parking lot, according to police. The office is on County Road 300 North near the Hoosier Heartland Highway. The building has since been demolished and the lot is vacant.

Since police believe the killer is local, and because the case has received so much of their focus over the last two years, News 18 also asked Riley if there was a chance the killer could be someone police have already interviewed.

"Somebody may have already interviewed him," said Riley. "I'm not going to say they have or have not, but there's a possibility that has happened. The person apparently gave the investigating officers the information they were looking for. We have to try to go back and check on the information that we have received."

"Somebody may have already interviewed him," said Riley. "I'm not going to say they have or have not, but there's a possibility that has happened. The person apparently gave the investigating officers the information they were looking for. We have to try to go back and check on the information that we have received."

Just going off this quote from an ISP Sgt. She's at first ambiguous about even interviewing the suspect and then gets pretty definitive about "The person...gave...information they were looking for."

Is this quote as confusing to others as it is to me?

ISP on Delphi killer: 'Somebody may have already interviewed him'

 

[kman]

Regarding Libby’s phone pinging “all over town” I wouldn’t read too much into that. I believe it was her grandfather who mentioned this in a video, and I always thought it to mean that they know the girls didn’t run away, not that the phone was actually moving around town.
MOO