CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #19

[LadyL]

For those of you who forgot or missed the fact that PT changed the date of disappearance from the 4th to the 5th, it's in this testimony, from 34:07 :

Also see CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #17

Quote:
Cathy Russon‏ @cathyrusson 1h1 hour ago
#McStay - Daugherty: Let's assume the family was murdered the night of the 4th or the early morning hours of the 5th. If a person between 7am and 10:15 was unaccounted for that would be 3 hours 15 mins that they could potentially clean up, correct?

the original poster said: As a result of some recent testimony the PT is even considering changing the date of the disappearance.

she made it sound like they made a statement that they were 'considering changing the date'
they did not make any such statement but simply proposed a possibility during a question

ETA: delete confusing part

 

[Force Ten]

For those of you who forgot or missed the fact that PT changed the date of disappearance from the 4th to the 5th, it's in this testimony, from 34:07 :

Also see CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #17

Quote:
Cathy Russon‏ @cathyrusson 1h1 hour ago
#McStay - Daugherty: Let's assume the family was murdered the night of the 4th or the early morning hours of the 5th. If a person between 7am and 10:15 was unaccounted for that would be 3 hours 15 mins that they could potentially clean up, correct?

Yes, being hypothetical, best or worst case scenario. It seemed he was more leaning towards time alloted for a cleanup if you take the time to listen to the context of his questioning. His alibi is not corroborated for that night and following days. When they were actually murdered is really is kind of moot. They're dead. No one knew of their whereabouts after the night of the 4th and all indications are Merritt was involved in the disappearance and subsequent murders.

 

[travelbug]

the original poster said: As a result of some recent testimony the PT is even considering changing the date of the disappearance.

she made it sound like they made a statement that they were 'considering changing the date'
they did not make any such statement but simply proposed a possibility during a question

ETA: delete confusing part

This was my precise quote. I don't believe it is in any way vague or misleading. It is my opinion only.

Many of the critical points made by the PT in their OS have been successfully challenged by the DT witnesses. As a result of some recent testimony the PT is even considering changing the date of the disappearance. If that happens that puts in doubt all PT evidence connected to the evening of 2/4/10.

 

[asyousay]

All signs of life from the McStay’s ended on the evening of the 4th.

 

[mrjitty]

"Circumstantial evidence" - generally more damning than direct in many cases. However, I'm not interested in dancing around the Maypole again, it starts to look like bickering and I'm also not interested in madding a mod.

It's isn't generally appreciated that most evidence in murder trials, including coveted DNA or forensic evidence, is circumstantial

It is after all, not very often that a witness sees the murder go down.

I guess the closest we come in this case to a piece of direct evidence is the security camera picture - but even there, inferences are needed.

 

[Tortoise]

Daugherty's question does not mean the prosecution's case has changed to the family being murdered on the 5th.

Do people not understand that if he had couched his question to their witness that they were murdered on the 4th between 6.45 pm and 8 pm leaving him 12 or 15 hours to clean up that the defence could then say 'ah but you heard our expert - he was only asked about the state's scenario, that's not our case that they were murdered then, we say the family was alive at 7 am so there wouldn't have been long enough for a clean up' ? Daugherty had to get him to admit there was time for a clean up even on the defence's scenario, given Merritt was unaccounted for, on his phone records, for almost 4 hours on the morning of the 5th.

At no time did Daugherty say the prosecution's case has changed. More misinformation folks.

In my opinion.

 

[mrjitty]

This was my precise quote. I don't believe it is in any way vague or misleading. It is my opinion only.

Out of interest I reread the prosecution opening and they never actually propose an exact time of disappearance.

 

[mrjitty]

Daugherty's question does not mean the prosecution's case has changed to the family being murdered on the 5th.

Do people not understand that if he had couched his question to their witness that they were murdered on the 4th between 6.45 pm and 8 pm leaving him 12 or 15 hours to clean up that the defence could then say 'ah but you heard our expert - he was only asked about the state's scenario, that's not our case that they were murdered then, we say the family was alive at 7 am so there wouldn't have been long enough for a clean up' ? Daugherty had to get him to admit there was time for a clean up even on the defence's scenario, given Merritt was unaccounted for, on his phone records, for almost 4 hours on the morning of the 5th.

At no time did Daugherty say the prosecution's case has changed. More misinformation folks.

In my opinion.

Agreed.

He was simply demonstrating that even the defence version doesn't clear Chase, via use of hypothetical.

it's a common rhetorical method in X

We saw Nel use this a lot with Pistorius, to demonstrate his testimony made no sense, even assuming the version the accused testified to

 

[mrjitty]

Of course circumstantial evidence can result in a conviction, I have never disputed that fact. However, my observation of responses from many posters leaves me believing their fair and impartial consideration of the evidence stopped after the judge ruled the PT case could go forward. Many of the critical points made by the PT in their OS have been successfully challenged by the DT witnesses.

RSBM

I am wondering how you believe the backdated cheques created by Chase on the 5th and afterwards have been challenged by the witnesses?

The heart of the prosecution case is that the backdating indicates guilty knowledge that Joey was missing

As I am yet to hear any defence witness give an explanation for this key plank of evidence, I would genuinely be interested in how you weigh it?

Are you simply saying it's mysterious but could just be a quirk?

 

[mrjitty]

What four killers?

Two teams, two graves, two murder weapons, four unknown DNA profiles

This is what McGee claims in opening.

 

[Tortoise]

I believe this one piece of evidence tells everything we need to know about the murder location.

This tells us Summer was incapacitated lying on her side while the paint dripped and then dried, in the vicinity of the weapon that killed her.

Painting in the desert? Painting in an alternative murder location? Painting in the Dodge Ram? Painting and abducted, still, quiet, and horizontal, at 7 am with no one noticing?

 

[mrjitty]

I believe this one piece of evidence tells everything we need to know about the murder location.

This tells us Summer was incapacitated lying on her side while the paint dripped and then dried, in the vicinity of the weapon that killed her.

Painting in the desert? Painting in an alternative murder location? Painting in the Dodge Ram? Painting and abducted, still, quiet, and horizontal, at 7 am with no one noticing?

View attachment 184992

According to the profiling books i looked at, rape etc never takes place at the dumping ground. In such cases, the bodies are just left to be discovered, because the killer does not seek to stage.

Summer was raped / murdered at a controlled location. Possibly also murdered before she was raped (common).

 

[asyousay]

According to the profiling books i looked at, rape etc never takes place at the dumping ground. In such cases, the bodies are just left to be discovered, because the killer does not seek to stage.

Summer was raped / murdered at a controlled location. Possibly also murdered before she was raped (common).

She would definitely of been raped when alive as it was all about power for Chase to show her she had no control. Years of hostilities built up to this moment where Chase could show her who was boss. I still think Joey was unfortunately made to watch a lot of what happened as well.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Of course circumstantial evidence can result in a conviction, I have never disputed that fact. However, my observation of responses from many posters leaves me believing their fair and impartial consideration of the evidence stopped after the judge ruled the PT case could go forward. Many of the critical points made by the PT in their OS have been successfully challenged by the DT witnesses. As a result of some recent testimony the PT is even considering changing the date of the disappearance. If that happens that puts in doubt all PT evidence connected to the evening of 2/4/10. There may have been others (and not CM) who might be placed at the scene of the disappearance if the date is changed. The PT has not yet proven the location of the murders. We know it's possible that other vehicles can be traced to the Fallbrook house during the 4th-6th time period. I also listened as the judge stated the PT shouldn't be pushing for a mistrial when McGee and Maline requested a delay, because it would not be beneficial to their side. I have listened and watched all testimony available from both sides. No one has proven to me that CM murdered the 4 McStay family members. It doesn't matter what my opinion is, however I don't believe I am the only person who has this doubt. moo

Morning TB!

I don't remember the PT changing the timeline to the 5th.

What I do recall is they asked a hypothetical question about the early morning hours of the 5th to get the witness to admit it still doesnt clear CM even it did happen on the early morning of the 5th as the DT is claiming.

I thought it was a masterful hypothetical question the PT asked that showed the jury it still doesnt mean CM is not the killer, and getting the DT witness to admit it. Priceless.

Imo, the PT has not changed the date to the 5th. Hypothetical questions are often asked in trials, and can be quite compelling at times.

Imo, this hypothetical question was a great question to ask because it showed even if they go by the DT claim of the 5th it doesn't rule out CM as the murderer.

He is still right in the thick of the murders. CMs whereabouts during these important timelines/days/dates will matter to the jury. Imo.

Even years later he still has no iron clad verifiable alibi during the important times in question. In fact CM seems to have a big alibi establishing problem that has been very inconsistent. Not good. Jurors pay very close to any, and all inconsistent statement ever made by the defendant on trial.

Imo they will have transcripts in the deliberation room with them showing how CM has made many inconsistent statements. This will not go unnoticed by his jury.

They will matter imo because the jurors knows the truth stays the same never changing, but telling falsehoods do change when the defendant can't remember all the lies they have told previously.

DK has a much better verifyable alibi that the DT has failed to shake. Imo.

However the DT has yet to produce a verifiable sound alibi for the most important person connected in this trial. CM. It's his failure to produce one that will be of most importance to the jury for they are there sitting in judgement of CM, and not others. CM will be the number one they hone in on focusing on him in great detail, imo.

While you may think the jury will just believe the words said by the defendant's family members just because they said so, I do not.

Even if their statements had been consistent throughout, which has not been the case, the jury is very aware they have the most vested interest to put the defendant in the best light more than anyone.

Imo, the jury will look at the evidence that is verifiable instead, and what they show them. CMs family alibi testimony will not be considered one way or the other. Imo.

So imo, the DT has yet to move the goal one inch by being able to rule CM out as the killer of all 4 victims. They also have failed to support the SODDI.

Even I have been surprised they have put forth such weak evidence about DK, and the other 4 mysterious killers seems to have vanished into thin air.

Especially when they are asking this jury to totally disregard all of the CE pointing only to the CM, and no other.

Jmho

 

[mrjitty]

She would definitely of been raped when alive as it was all about power for Chase to show her she had no control. Years of hostilities built up to this moment where Chase could show her who was boss. I still think Joey was unfortunately made to watch a lot of what happened as well.

IMO

That is what you'd think - pure krimi style

But frequently the victim is killed or fatally injured during the overpowering phase

 

[oceanblueeyes]

"Circumstantial evidence" - generally more damning than direct in many cases. However, I'm not interested in dancing around the Maypole again, it starts to look like bickering and I'm also not interested in madding a mod.

You are 100% correct.

In some trials I have even seen when judges are explaining the weight of CE to the juries tell them it can often be more weighty than direct evidence.

The great thing about all of the circumstantial facts entered in any trial it's very easy to follow, and following the CE facts entered are like links in a chain. The jury doesnt have to agree on every CE fact entered for the strong chain to remain intact.

I really do believe that is the reason why CE cases are the least likely to be overturned.

Even if one or two CE facts can be removed when appealed it still does not remove all of the other many other CE facts that still proved the defendant's guilt.

I much prefer CE cases over direct evidence cases. They are much stronger than having to rely on eye witness testimony only.

Jmo tho

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I wish the PT could bring up Merritt's past as it would be an eye opener for the jury. The 2 time felon was a horrible person and father before he was arrested for the murders. Once he's convicted I'm hopeful the flood gates will open and everyone will see the real Charles Ray Merritt.

If convicted it will all come in during the sentencing phase.

Character witnesses or those who testify about lack of moral character doesn't present itself in the guilt phase.

Now I have seen exceptions due to the defense opening the door by trying to get in character evidence in prematurely. When that has happened the state is then allowed to disprove such claims of good character.

Btw, has any of CMs close friends come forth in the media claiming he couldnt have done this? We usually do see friends or neighbors speak out is why I ask. Tia

Imo

 

[Tortoise]

Another obstacle for the defence date of the murders is the phone records. In one murder it would normally be deemed strong evidence that the victim, especially one who used his phone a lot, stopped using his phone from a certain point. In this case there's two such victims who stopped using their phones in the same time frame. Double the evidence is as good as cast iron IMO.

 

[Tortoise]

Two teams, two graves, two murder weapons, four unknown DNA profiles

This is what McGee claims in opening.

McGee: "It’s two teams that are far enough apart so they don’t hit each other."

 

[Karinna]

Another obstacle for the defence date of the murders is the phone records. In one murder it would normally be deemed strong evidence that the victim, especially one who used his phone a lot, stopped using his phone from a certain point. In this case there's two such victims who stopped using their phones in the same time frame. Double the evidence is as good as cast iron IMO.

BBM, Yes it is very incriminating and could approximately determine when the murders happened with zero phone contact from both victims, IMO.